was browsing

[bluerains]

foetry...found browsing

and found this and wondered what is the difference and thoughts ..has anyone heard of this and what its about?

http://prorev.com/2004/07/poetry-police.htm

 

[Angeline]

I think there's a big difference between a place like Fence Magazine, which is a legitimate poetry journal and a place like poetry.com, which suckers writers who don't know any better into buying the "anthology" in which they're published, spending lots of money on awards conferences, etc. Literary journals have a right to publish whomever they want and some of them have very specific guidelines. I don't see how choosing to publish more graduates of the Iowa Writers' Workshop (possibly the most prestgious poetry grad program in the USA) is so different from choosing to publish love poems or sonnets or poems about cows or whatever in one's journal. Both types of journal will, by their guidelines' specifications, rule some writers out. That's just the way it works.

I do have a real problem with a scam that makes money by telling everyone who sends in a poem that they have "real talent," which the world can discover if only the poet sends in 60 bucks USD for their personal copy of the anthology. It's like a vanity press only they don't advertise it as such. That's just taking advantage of people who don't know anything about poetry publishing.

 

[annaswirls]

It seems a bit radical, but face it, there is a fair amount of inbreeding in the world of poetry, just like anywhere.

How many times have you been through a job interview (from any side of the table) in which the person was ALREADY selected, but they had to go through the process so they could say, Yes, we looked. It is a frustrating waste of time and unfail to applicants.


Ange, I agree with the the whole poetry.com issue, it is a shame grrrr....

But that seems to be a whole different story. I think there is room for scrutiny in both issues.

It is all about networking, unfortunately. Hard for a no-name to get anywhere.

I think that the best contests, submissions etc should be anon, where the readers do not know if they are reading Lyn Lyfshin or Linda Jones.

I also think that a publisher should be able to publish what they want, but they should not take your 20 bucks knowing you do not have a chance because they don't know who you are, or you have not passed through their seminar?

 

[quietpoet]

The answer is no

There is no way anything is guaranteed. But this is life. As long as people are voting, winning is always going to be subjective. Is there truly objectivity outside of science and math? i doubt it. Unless all contestants are proven to have no relationship with judges, there would be no way to absolutely eliminate anything funny.

 

[bogusbrig]

Quote from Foetry. 'Over and over again, judges often select their students, friends, and even their lovers. '

I've never suspected anything else but the above to be going on, that is why so much winning poetry is bland, though often technically competent. You very rarely see new and exciting poetry thrown up in competitions and that isnot just in poetry.

Look at novels, films, art etc. Almost always the winner is bland but competent. There has to be more going on when choosing a winner than just quality and originality. It's the way of the world.

A couple of days ago I wrote in a thread that a friend of mine has been searching for an agent for about two years (about the only way to get published is to find an agent). He met a agent at a party and they became lovers and now she is championing his work. He has already had initial responses from two publishers.

Corruption, sycophancy and nepotism, oils the wheels and make the world turn. To think otherwise is to be naive.

 

[PatCarrington]

if i remember correctly, what prompted the startup of this website was jorie graham's selction (she was the only judge, i think) of her own husband as the winner of a prestigious poetry prize.

that's not kosher, i don't care what the rules of the contest were. that type of conflict of interest should have disqualified her.

here's the page that website put up about her and the shenanigans they claim she's been involved in.

jorie graham

and i agree with bogus - you shouldn't have to be alive very long to acknowledge that nepotism is everywhere...even in the little towns i've lived in, you could transformed the rolls of city workers, teachers and police and firemen and housing inspectors, into the sketching of a few family trees.

 

[Angeline]

if i remember correctly, what prompted the startup of this website was jorie graham's selction (she was the only judge, i think) of her own husband as the winner of a prestigious poetry prize.

that's not kosher, i don't care what the rules of the contest were. that type of conflict of interest should have disqualified her.

here's the page that website put up about her and the shenanigans they claim she's been involved in.

jorie graham

and i agree with bogus - you shouldn't have to be alive very long to acknowledge that nepotism is everywhere...even in the little towns i've lived in, you could transformed the rolls of city workers, teachers and police and firemen and housing inspectors, into the sketching of a few family trees.

Yes, absolutely true, and yet for me it still really doesn't matter because I don't write to be published. If something I write is accepted for publication somewhere, I'm thrilled. I'm happy to know that people will read me, but it's not my raison d'etre. I write because I need to express myself this way. I'd do it if there were no outlet for me to share what I create, including this one. I'd do it if no one else ever read anything I've written. I write because it is who I am. I can't not write. I lose myself when I don't write.

I know you understand this, as do others here. It's not a just world and I'm still a writer.

 

[PatCarrington]

It's not a just world and I'm still a writer.

that's a mouthful of intelligence and understanding, in a few simple words.

isn't that what poetry is?

 

[Angeline]

that's a mouthful of intelligence and understanding, in a few simple words.

isn't that what poetry is?

well now that you point it out...

it may be the first line of my next poem.

 

[bogusbrig]

...... I don't write to be published.

I think one needs this mentality if you don't have the drive or ambition to promote your own work because self promotion and incessant hammering on the door is the only way apart from luck and the good fortune of knowing the right person that is going to get anyone published.

It's pointless whining and stamping your feet on the sidelines that it just isn't fair. Life ain't fair and isn't going to be fair long after we are all pushing up daisies.

 

[PatCarrington]

well now that you point it out...

it may be the first line of my next poem.

go write it, then, red.

 

[Angeline]

go write it, then, red.

ok but now i'm blues. good blues. listening to milt jackson.

 

[PatCarrington]

ok but now i'm blues. good blues. listening to milt jackson.

you change those av's like lightning.

now, you have to write 2 poems - one red, one blue.

 

[Angeline]

you change those av's like lightning.

now, you have to write 2 poems - one red, one blue.

no red, white, and blue though. i'm feeling deliciously apolitical today.

i like my avs to have a theme. lol. i'll prolly change again before the day is done.

sorry for the hijack, ms. blue.

 

[anonamouse]

Quote from Foetry. 'Over and over again, judges often select their students, friends, and even their lovers. '

I've never suspected anything else but the above to be going on, that is why so much winning poetry is bland, though often technically competent. You very rarely see new and exciting poetry thrown up in competitions and that isnot just in poetry.

Look at novels, films, art etc. Almost always the winner is bland but competent. There has to be more going on when choosing a winner than just quality and originality. It's the way of the world.

A couple of days ago I wrote in a thread that a friend of mine has been searching for an agent for about two years (about the only way to get published is to find an agent). He met a agent at a party and they became lovers and now she is championing his work. He has already had initial responses from two publishers.

Corruption, sycophancy and nepotism, oils the wheels and make the world turn. To think otherwise is to be naive.

hello, other prince of ugly,
I didn't know how religious you were 'till you mentioned the blessed trinity
Corruption, sycophancy and nepotism
almost matches Iowa
corn, pigs, and holes
Damn, if I could only work up enough stomach to fuck Jorie Graham, could I do with ear muffs, so I wouldn't have to listen to her murder Dante.

 

[PatCarrington]

Damn, if I could only work up enough stomach to fuck Jorie Graham, could I do with ear muffs, so I wouldn't have to listen to her murder Dante.

fuckin' jorie graham with ear muffs on... ...sort of like a condom to protect your own poetic soul.

you're good, mouse.

 

[bluerains]

so many opinions

hello, other prince of ugly,
I didn't know how religious you were 'till you mentioned the blessed trinity
Corruption, sycophancy and nepotism
almost matches Iowa
corn, pigs, and holes
Damn, if I could only work up enough stomach to fuck Jorie Graham, could I do with ear muffs, so I wouldn't have to listen to her murder Dante.

much thanks...I have'nt sent into many contests and often wondered if they were legit..and I saw this article in my local library webpage along with this one...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/07/10/BAGGJDJQJI1.DTL

and you all seem to have an opinion that most of the foetry site is right on...correct..so if one is listed on the site ..you should be suspect...but, after reading this opinions ...they all are so do we need to have a poet police to tell us what we alread know...
I really liked your comment anomouse...the last line gave me quite a tickle...
this subject is very good to chat about and open the channels to see what contests can do..some younger souls out there may really be discouraged when they see this go on...thank you all for taking time to address this ..and please continue on..and ange...you can highjack my thread ..anytime..
lolblue

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Okay blue~
I made it in as fast as a herd of turtles <grin>


I know several people with Poems in an anthology with Poetry.com and they are not unhappy with their printed version of a poetry book with their poem in it. I have stories in an anthology and a poem book coming soon with all THE ROSE series in print. I agree with ang on...we write to release our emotions and wrestle in pen with poetry not to cast them in Print, but if some one comes along and wants to publish them, that is an added joy.

any hostages in this high-jacking? <laughing>

 

[WickedEve]

Okay blue~
I made it in as fast as a herd of turtles <grin>


I know several people with Poems in an anthology with Poetry.com and they are not unhappy with their printed version of a poetry book with their poem in it. I have stories in an anthology and a poem book coming soon with all THE ROSE series in print. I agree with ang on...we write to release our emotions and wrestle in pen with poetry not to cast them in Print, but if some one comes along and wants to publish them, that is an added joy.

any hostages in this high-jacking? <laughing>

Are your poems with poetry.com or a similar establishment or what?
I can imagine poetry.com's books do please some poets who want a keepsake with their work in it. I guess if you know what you're getting then there's no harm.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Are your poems with poetry.com or a similar establishment or what?
I can imagine poetry.com's books do please some poets who want a keepsake with their work in it. I guess if you know what you're getting then there's no harm.

Hell that's almost funny <snicker meter> no it is not a "pay n print or vanity" it includes several publications which the first two will be out mid sept and the next mid oct. I promise to ring your door bell when they hit the book store <grin> you can't describe the color red, you have to show them.

 

[WickedEve]

Hell that's almost funny <snicker meter> no it is not a "pay n print or vanity" it includes several publications which the first two will be out mid sept and the next mid oct. I promise to ring your door bell when they hit the book store <grin> you can't describe the color red, you have to show them.

What's funny? Because I asked a question about the book? I really didn't know, and I was interested in knowing more.

 

[annaswirls]

Yes, absolutely true, and yet for me it still really doesn't matter because I don't write to be published. If something I write is accepted for publication somewhere, I'm thrilled. I'm happy to know that people will read me, but it's not my raison d'etre. I write because I need to express myself this way. I'd do it if there were no outlet for me to share what I create, including this one. I'd do it if no one else ever read anything I've written. I write because it is who I am. I can't not write. I lose myself when I don't write.

I know you understand this, as do others here. It's not a just world and I'm still a writer.

I understand that you write because you are a writer, for the joy of it, because of your need to express yourself....which is wonderful, honorable, etc. I think many people, maybe most people do not write specifically to be published.

If I was dropped on a deserted island I would still write. Probably more. In the sand or on palm tree bark.

But wrong is wrong, even if it is common. Many things that do not effect me personally still matter to me. Maybe not enough go start a protest or a crazy web page, or even participate in a forum about the subject... but still matters to me because it is one of those things that sticks in my gut and says, wait a second, this is wrong.


eh hem

off my soapbox....


Ange, I am glad that you write, and that you share it with us, we are fortunate to benefit from this part of who you are.

sheesh I wanted to answer Bogusbrig but I am tooo darnnn sleeeepy

night

as

 

[Angeline]

I understand that you write because you are a writer, for the joy of it, because of your need to express yourself....which is wonderful, honorable, etc. I think many people, maybe most people do not write specifically to be published.

If I was dropped on a deserted island I would still write. Probably more. In the sand or on palm tree bark.

But wrong is wrong, even if it is common. Many things that do not effect me personally still matter to me. Maybe not enough go start a protest or a crazy web page, or even participate in a forum about the subject... but still matters to me because it is one of those things that sticks in my gut and says, wait a second, this is wrong.


eh hem

off my soapbox....


Ange, I am glad that you write, and that you share it with us, we are fortunate to benefit from this part of who you are.

sheesh I wanted to answer Bogusbrig but I am tooo darnnn sleeeepy

night

as

We are in agreement anna--I think. I'm not saying injustice doesn't matter to me--I have many reasons to be deeply disturbed by injustice--whether I experience it personally or not. My point is simply that it has no bearing on why I write.

If you reread my original post you will see that I said taking advantage of people is wrong.

I think you misread my intent sometimes so I want to clarify myself. Some people get very focused on the publication game. I love being published but I write regardless of whether I am or will be. I spent a number of years in fairly high-level academic circles. I have no interest in being part of the scrambling and backstabbing that accompanies much of it. I just love to write.

I think most poets do not write specifically to be published, but many get so caught up in trying to be published or get into the "good places" that it effects what and how they write. I'm not pointing fingers, just making an observation. That life is not for me.

 

[anonamouse]

Oh Iowa

I think there's a big difference between a place like Fence Magazine, which is a legitimate poetry journal and a place like poetry.com, which suckers writers who don't know any better into buying the "anthology" in which they're published, spending lots of money on awards conferences, etc. Literary journals have a right to publish whomever they want and some of them have very specific guidelines. I don't see how choosing to publish more graduates of the Iowa Writers' Workshop (possibly the most prestgious poetry grad program in the USA) is so different from choosing to publish love poems or sonnets or poems about cows or whatever in one's journal. Both types of journal will, by their guidelines' specifications, rule some writers out. That's just the way it works.

I do have a real problem with a scam that makes money by telling everyone who sends in a poem that they have "real talent," which the world can discover if only the poet sends in 60 bucks USD for their personal copy of the anthology. It's like a vanity press only they don't advertise it as such. That's just taking advantage of people who don't know anything about poetry publishing.

me, me, me

Oh Iowa, Oh Iowa, home of drop-your-pants
I don't know which is worse, boring verse
or fucking Jorie Graham
c'mon everybody sing

Oh, I just write to express myself,
I'd write it in the sand,
but, thank god for government grants,
and if you give me $20,
I'll tell you you're not good enough
and award it to drop-your-pants

Oh Iowa, Oh Iowa, home of Jorie Graham,
corn fed pigs...
no, no, no, you got it all wrong,
and pedagogues
I am the Ambassador for Poetry, you know,
I'll see to it YOUR"E never published,
what wrong with pedagoguery, anyway,
somebody has to show the way, OH, is my MFA slip showing?
God, how I hate these corn fields

 

[Angeline]

me, me, me

Oh Iowa, Oh Iowa, home of drop-your-pants
I don't know which is worse, boring verse
or fucking Jorie Graham
c'mon everybody sing

Oh, I just write to express myself,
I'd write it in the sand,
but, thank god for government grants,
and if you give me $20,
I'll tell you you're not good enough
and award it to drop-your-pants

Oh Iowa, Oh Iowa, home of Jorie Graham,
corn fed pigs...
no, no, no, you got it all wrong,
and pedagogues
I am the Ambassador for Poetry, you know,
I'll see to it YOUR"E never published,
what wrong with pedagoguery, anyway,
somebody has to show the way, OH, is my MFA slip showing?
God, how I hate these corn fields

I've spent a fair amount of time in Iowa City and worked with a number of workshop people. Most of them are good people and struggle like everyone here does. Jorie Graham is one person.

And for the record, I've never had a government grant in my life. I walked away from a bad marriage and a very lucrative career to focus on my writing and be with eagleyez. I make slightly more than minimum wage now with no benefits as a teacher of reading and writing--primarily to little kids with learning disabilities.

Just so you know. My comments are truth, not lip service. What have you given up to write?

There's another position for moderator open. I mainly stayed for Eve anyway.

I'm sorry Lauren. I've had it.