War with Iraq: Yes or No?

[Mad_Jack_Rabbit]

There are a few threads on this subject expressing strong views for and against but no poll (that I've seen.)

So is it the war nobody wants?

Does Saddam Hussein really pose a threat?

Should we act now and hopefully not repeat the mistakes of the past?

Or will everything be okay if we do nothing?

 

[Gord]

I just think that the West has been promising this for so long that if we dont do something now it will be tantamount to every crackpot fuckwit to do what ever they want

Sure there might be other deserving targets out there and I know we cant police the whole world - but Saadam has flouted UN for years and deserves everything coming

Give Iraq the chance to maybe just maybe become part of the world again - maybe give the kids a long term future if they get their shit together - It is a rich country and could be a wonderful place to live

so get the fucker out and lets see

 

[Sad Ghost]

Make Love Not War

 

[SINthysist]

A Primer on Iraq for the Clueless

Barry Farber
Tuesday, Oct. 1, 2002

Religious envy can be pleasant. If used correctly it can lead to heightened brotherhood.

Some secular Moslems may envy Christians and Jews for their ability to drink alcohol without guilt. Some Moslems and Jews may envy Christians for their restriction-free menus. Some Catholics may envy Jews for their ability to confess their sins all together as a group and not person-to-person in a booth in uncomfortable detail. And only once a year at that.

As a Jew I've always envied Christians for those words of Jesus on the Cross; looking upward in His pain and saying to God, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do!"

Merely hearing that as a small child in a classroom, before religious teachings were banned, helped me ever since separate those villains in my life who were deliberately out to give me a hard time from those who simply "knew not what they did."

Repeated silently to myself when necessary, that one mantra has helped me restrain my fury at sadistic sergeants in basic training, inflexible bureaucrats, black people who assume from my Southern accent I'm an enemy rather than a proactive anti-segregrationist from the 1950s, and beautiful women on the subway platform who storm away in a huff when the train comes and enter a distant car because they mistake my smile for the hallmark of a stalker.

Lately those words have led me to an uncharacteristic calm toward those in the Iraq debate who say: "There's no proof Iraq is an imminent threat to America. There's no provable connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. Send the inspectors back and warn Saddam THIS time, no more nice guy. Let him understand it will be his obliteration if there's any interference with the inspections. I mean, he certainly doesn't want his country destroyed, I'm sure!"

The Jesus quote doesn't engender calm against wanton infuriators, only those who genuinely "know not what they do." And I'm convinced the "hands off Hussein" crowd preaches that because they're clueless – clueless on two important counts.

To illustrate Count One I invoke a parable from the gospel of Jackie Mason. Mason tells of a New York man hit by a Manhattan bus. Battered and shattered, unable to stand, he inches his way on elbows toward the curb. A cop blows his whistle, hovers over him, yells: "Stop! Lie there! Be still! Don't move!"

"Please, officer," mutters the man. "I don't want to get involved."

Those who "know not" seem to have actually forgotten the 9/11 genesis of all this. Bruce Hershenson, who should be senator or governor of California, or higher, puts it succinctly. "Too many Americans think of 9/11 as past tense. 9/11 is present tense."

Too Late Not to Be Involved


We're involved. When you're involved in a war the threshold of reasonable doubt changes. We know that Saddam hates us, has weapons of mass destruction, is reaching for the nuclear bomb, will one day achieve it, and has an unbroken record of using weapons against those he hates. And, moving from fact to speculation, we will learn the day he's overthrown how grateful the Iraqi people are to their liberators.

The clueless hate Vice President Dick Cheney for saying it so briefly, bluntly and well. "The perils of inaction exceed the perils of action." He's dead right.

And columnist Thomas Sowell scores a knockout with his observation that every terrorist on earth who hates America is watching to see whether or not Saddam gets away with it. They want to know if America is still sticking with the suicidal doctrine that, in order for America to react militarily, the terrorists must be caught IN the act or AFTER the act.

This American wants to know, too.

No Proof? Consider This


But, comes the reminder, there's no firm evidence linking Saddam to 9/11.

True, perhaps, but the relevant questions then become: Looking at the world after 9/11, how does Saddam feel about America? How does he feel about those who have proven they can do America harm? And, if his long-standing efforts to acquire the nuclear weapon succeed, will he likely sit on it, use it himself, or, under tight supervision, pass it along to any terrorist who can arrange to have it destroy an American city?

My fingers freeze when I try to remove a single one of my chips from Square Three.

So, ask the calm-downers, does that mean that America has issued itself a hunting license to go after every bad guy with bad weapons who dislikes America?

Hardly. America's motive is not to rule the world, but to defend Americans. Since 1949 when the Soviets exploded their first A-bomb we've lived peacefully with bad guys with bad weapons who don't like us. Try this short thought-experiment. Whose nuclear bombs come closest to making you sleepless: Russia's, China's; or, for that matter, Britain's, France's, India's, Pakistan's, Israel's – or Iraq's?

I expect the most anti-action person to admit his mental needle jiggles more vigorously at the mention of Iraq.

Saddam Hussein is unlike any other leader who has, or is trying to get, the nuclear bomb. His demonstrated brand of insanity makes even the Soviet leaders of the Cuban Missile Crisis look like high priests of pro-American stability.

And that delivers us unto Count Two of the indictment of the clueless. We agree America has been spoiled by a high standard of a great many things: living, wealth, stability, normalcy, opportunity, and high-fat and high-calorie french fries. We're less aware of another American spoilage.

Spoiled by Villains


We've been spoiled by a God-blessedly high standard of political villains.

Who are the American political villains? Richard Nixon? Sen. Joseph McCarthy? Gov. Huey "Kingfish" Long? Liars, cover-uppers, arrogant opportunists, abusers of power. Okay. Can you do any better than that? What American politician was really BAD?

Has America ever produced a Hitler, a Mussolini, a Stalin, a Fidel Castro, an Idi Amin, a Saddam Hussein? Of course not. Nowhere near. And therefore the clueless caucus of our American flock fails to understand the reality of a ruler who would set out to conquer the world, exterminate a people, imprison and annihilate all his enemies, execute ordinary followers of the previous ruler after 10-minute trials (Castro), present the head of a political foe at a banquet on a serving platter (Amin), and deliver the body of one of his cabinet members who dared utter a mild criticism in private to his wife – in pieces (Hussein)!

The clueless among us tend to see Saddam Hussein as merely some kind of Jesse Ventura who speaks Arabic. He can be reached; he can be reasoned with, they suppose.

The Real Hussein

They don't remember his clinically insane refusal to withdraw from Kuwait when he saw the whole world, including major Arab states, arrayed against him. They ignore his sudden reversal in late September 2002, just as the world community was drifting his way thanks to his pledge only three days earlier to allow utterly unfettered inspections. They dismiss as "banal" the reports that Hussein gets told only what he wants to hear from his sycophant aides and punishes those who accidently let a bit of reality intrude.

The clueless think: "Gee. We all read the papers, watch the news and follow the polls," assuming Saddam must do all that real-world stuff, too.

"Would Saddam be foolhardy enough to risk certain extermination?" If you ask that question, you're a chauvinist. You're not a white chauvinist, a black chauvinist, or a male chauvinist. You know what you are? You're a SANE chauvinist!

We sane folk want peace, plenty, pleasure, good cuisine, pleasant vacations, good miles to the gallon, a satisfying love life and good TV reception on NFL Sundays. And "sane chauvinists" assume everybody else must want the same things.

Adolf Hitler never met Saddam Hussein, but they were both members of the same faculty trying to teach the world the same lesson. And failing. That lesson is the megalomanical dictator's creed.

The American politician is merely a mouse trying to become a rat through body-building.

The megalomanical dictator's creed is: Better fiery ruination for me and all around me than surrender or even compromise in the middle of my mission!

Hitler knew in October 1942 after the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad that he would lose the war. Yet he would have executed any German general or diplomat who reached out through neutrals for a negotiated peace. You don't conquer all Europe east and west only to withdraw within your borders and devote more attention to your highways.

And Saddam is incapable – hear me; not reluctant, unwilling, recalcitrant. Saddam Hussein is INCAPABLE of settling down, giving up the dream of being Big Dog in the Mideast Meathouse, bossing around nobody but Iraqis and, with the passage of time, becoming nothing more than one more unspectacular Arab dictator.

The clueless, alas, understand mad dogs, better than they understand mad dictators.

The former visibly drool.

The latter may not visibly drool, but they fatally bite.

 

[Lost Cause]

Iraq, Iran, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Saudi Arabia

Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Burma, Africa, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Russia, China, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Japan, Phillipines, UK, Azores, NZ, Australia, Iceland, Greenland, Canada, Spain, Cuba, Virgin Islands, Mexico, Brazil, Peru, Argentina, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Micronesia, New Guinea, Lebanon.

In so many words, any fucking country that provides an environment, support, or protects those murderers should be surgically hit, criminals killed, and let them be thankful that we don't make them into a state! Peace through superior firepower!

 

[SINthysist]

Good Gawd Lost! Do we attack Canada and Mexico first so we don't have to fight a three front war (well four, if the shooting starts we know the Chinese will launch a Taipai junket for the bored soldiers and sailors of the PLA )?

 

[Lost Cause]

Those Wacky Iraqis......

Always up to their "cute" little "antics" in the eyes of their supporters.

WASHINGTON- House investigators this week were tied up in meetings examining recently uncovered evidence suggesting an Iraqi link to the Oklahoma City bombing and other terror attacks.


The House Government Reform Committee, chaired by Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., sent staff investigators to Oklahoma City during the August congressional recess. In "sniffing around” (to use the words of the Indianapolis Star), committee counsel Marc Chretien found six witnesses who place executed bomber Timothy McVeigh with "foreign-looking men” shortly before the blast at the Alfred P. Murrah federal building on April 19, 1995. As of Tuesday evening, there was no word on whether or when the committee will hold hearings on the new information.


In an exclusive interview with NewsMax.com, TV investigative reporter Jayna Davis who has gathered enough information to write ten books, described McVeigh and his accomplice Terry Nichols as "the perfect lily-white recruits” in what she said has all the appearances of an Iraqi-Iranian plot, with Iran acting as "paymaster.”


Her evidence is so strong that even the cautious Wall Street Journal has taken notice and, in a Sept. 5 article by its senior editorial writer Micah Morrison, has said the possibility of a trail leading to Baghdad "needs to be put on the table in a serious way.”


Millions of Americans recall that in the early hours after the bombing, law enforcement produced photos of a "John Doe 1” (which turned out to be McVeigh) and "John Doe 2,” which was quickly withdrawn as a "mistake.”


Davis says there was in fact a "John Doe 2” at Oklahoma City. Her investigations have produced over 20 witnesses who place him near the Murrah building or who link him to the plot in other ways. An Iraqi native and former member of the Iraqi army, Hussain al-Hussaini "bears a strong resemblance” to the description of the mysterious "John Doe 2” right down to a tattoo on his left arm. A judge has ruled that Davis proved the resemblance.


According to the Journal, the court case had resulted from a libel suit al-Hussaini had filed against Davis after her station, in late spring of 1995, while not naming him, ran a series of stories that included photographs of him that digitally obscured his face. The stories by the Oklahoma City station, KFOR-TV, were part of a series exploring a Middle East connection. His lawsuit was filed in August, 1995.


As Davis recounts to NewsMax:


"He [al-Hussaini] dismissed it twenty-four hours before the judge was scheduled to rule on our motion for summary judgment.


"It’s real important that I clarify to you how much evidence there is against him,” the investigative reporter stressed.


"In a libel case, your basic defense is truth. So when the judge was set to rule on this case on April 17 of ’97 whether or not to dismiss it or to go to jury trial, he [al-Hussaini] voluntarily withdrew the case without prejudice.” He re-filed September 19, 1997 in federal court. The judge in that court dismissed the case.


"Not only did Judge Timothy Leonard [in the federal case] rule in November of ’99 that I didn’t libel Hussain-al Hussaini,” investigator Davis said in her NewsMax interview, "he ruled that all fifty statements of fact and opinion that implicated the man in the bombing that had been set forth on the record were undisputed.


"Four years of litigation,” she added, "and two separate lawsuits, and Hussain al-Hussaini cannot even produce one witness’s affidavit to establish his whereabouts in the critical hours of April 19, 1995.”


Al-Hussaini’s lawyer, Gary Richardson, is running as an independent candidate for governor of Oklahoma. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, he described the treatment accorded his client as "anathema to American values,” adding the itinerant restaurant worker had been singled out "because he was an Arab.” The attorney maintains there is "no evidence that Hussain al-Hussaini is John Doe 2.”


The Iraqi native refused Davis’s requests for an interview, but did talk to rival stations in Oklahoma City. That in turn led to a report that FBI "bosses in Washington” would not "allow” the agency to "officially clear him.”


Here’s what the Wall Street Journal adds to this aspect of the story:


"Ms. Davis’s evidence was examined by Patrick Lang, a Middle East expert and former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency’s human intelligence collection section. In a memo to Ms. Davis, Mr. Lang concluded Mr. al-Hussaini likely is a member of Unit 999 of the Iraqi Military Intelligence Service, or Estikhabarat. He wrote that this unit is headquartered in Salman Pak southeast of Baghdad, and ‘deals with clandestine operations at home and abroad.’”


Burton’s committee staff interviewed Davis during the August visit to Oklahoma City. The Wall Street Journal article makes a connection between Oklahoma City and the first World Trade Center bombing. Ramzi Yousef, one of those implicated in the 1993 WTC blast, and Terry Nichols (McVeigh’s accomplice in Oklahoma city) were in the Philippines simultaneously.


"Nichols’s trips there were undisputed: His wife’s relatives lived in Cebu City. Cebu City is also the territory of the Islamic terrorist group Abu Sayyaf.”


Nichols had repeatedly called a boarding house there which, Davis told NewsMax.com, is "known to shelter students from a local university that’s known for Islamic militancy.” Davis told us phone records have shown Nichols repeatedly called the boarding house when his wife was not there. He received phone calls "at his home in Kansas” from that same boarding house at all hours of the day and night. Nichols went to pay phones "all over Junction City” making calls to the boarding house in the Philippines.


There are many other "strange coincidences” noted in the Journal, the Indianapolis Star and others. Space precludes recounting all of them here at this time.


The nagging question raised by NewsMax.com was why would someone like McVeigh, who knows he’s going to be executed, be willing to go to his grave without perhaps doing a plea bargain for a lighter sentence by sharing his information on "others unknown” (to quote the jury verdict)?


Davis cites some probabilities: 1. In McVeigh’s mind, he was being "the perfect soldier. As he saw it, he was an American hero.” 2. He was protecting his sister Jennifer whom he loved dearly, and didn’t want to put her in danger of retaliation.


The string of "coincidences” strikes some investigators in Washington as too numerous to ignore.


One veteran observer of investigations in this town opined that it would be astonishing if all of these "coincidences” were to stop short of a smoking gun after a thorough official probe. Such a probe has yet to take place. Those who have followed the "Iraq connection” anxiously await the decision of the Burton committee on whether to provide the inquiry and answer all relevant questions.

 

[christophe]

people forget about the soldiers sometimes that will fight the war and many of whom will not come home.

it is easy to be a hawk form the living room or in front of the puter...but when you are the one getting shot at ...it takes on a new meaning.

the only glory that comes from war occurs only after the last body has been buried

 

[SINthysist]

Former Marine. I have dear lifelong friends in theater. I don't want them to die. They don't want to die.

They want to protect our children's future and are ready to die, if neccessary, to ensure that happens.

This has been said to my face.

I tell it to you.

 

[Lost Cause]

Been there, done that....

Been in firefights, done the mission, got the shrapnel I pulled out of my flack vest in my dresser drawer.
I know the cost, as every soldier that has ever served has done. This is a volunteer army, no one is forced into service, this is not Vietnam!
The average soldier is 10 times more likely to survive than when I was humpin' the four corners of de' world.
What bugs me is the folks that have never served, telling me the cost of freedom from fear for the protected at home, on their quaint computers, spewing defeatist crap all over the graves of those that stood on the line, so they at home wouldn't have to!

 

[SINthysist]

To your earlier post - I argued strong and hard NOT to fry Timmy because I'm pretty sure the truth of that never came out... He would have broke eventually.

 

[SINthysist]

To your latter post.

Well said.

Well said.

 

[Lost Cause]

0436hrs PST....I'm outta here...

Semper Fi Marine, A-river-dirt-cheap, chow, adios, happy trails, repeat all after....ta ta, bye, see ya, over and out...lima charlie...clear! bong-bing-bong!

 

[Ishmael]

people forget about the soldiers sometimes that will fight the war and many of whom will not come home.

it is easy to be a hawk form the living room or in front of the puter...but when you are the one getting shot at ...it takes on a new meaning.

the only glory that comes from war occurs only after the last body has been buried

First of all, there is no glory in war. None whatsoever and that is especially true for those that have to fight these wars.

Your accusation about 'forgetting' the soldiers, sailors, and airmen is also not true. Most are very much aware of the price that some of these young men and women will have to pay. But sometimes that is the price that does have to be paid to secure the freedoms that we enjoy.

I don't think there is a reasoned man or woman anywhere that would choose war if there were an alternative. A real alternative. And the men and women that serve this country know that also. Appeasement and ignoring the beligerent actions of others has never led to peace. It has led to greater violence and loss of national treasure. Much like a cancer to be excised, the sooner the better.

If you are a soldier, I wish you the best. If you aren't, I would be more careful about trying to be their 'spokesman'.

Ishmael

 

[SINthysist]

URRAH!

 

[Ishmael]

URRAH!

Vini Vidi Vici - Motto, U.S. Army Sniper School, USAMTU - Ft. Benning, Ga.

Ishmael

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Those Wacky Iraqis......

Always up to their "cute" little "antics" in the eyes of their supporters.

WASHINGTON- House investigators this week were tied up in meetings examining recently uncovered evidence suggesting an Iraqi link to the Oklahoma City bombing and other terror attacks.

<BIG BIT MISSING>

Hi LC, This post sounds like Dubyah revisionism, disinformation during the phoney war build up to justify imperialist aggression against a country which holds 20% of wolrd oil reserves that the US multinational oil cartel wantsa to control . . .

 

[SINthysist]

That's what you just said on the last thread. You are supposed to go to the next play in the book...

 

[SINthysist]

Oh Gawd Ish, I have a strong DEMOCRATIC urge (from my past) to resurrect my dead characters and skew the voting for OUR side !







...

 

[Coolville]

Looks like the secret american labs have been busy manufacturing industrial strength testosterone and lacing the corn flakes of all the american fundamentalists on the GB.

 

[SINthysist]

No, it's just that anybody with balls left Europe for America long ago..

 

[bluespoke]

No, it's just that anybody with balls left Europe for America long ago..

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Then again, never considered the UK part of Europe. So, OK.

 

[SINthysist]

yeah, but Testosterone Tony is showing HE has a pair!

 

[bluespoke]

yeah, but Testosterone Tony is showing HE has a pair!

Such big ones that when George says jump, Tony only asks how high!

I do wish he had a mind of his own.

Hell, I wish he had a mind!

I'm sure we will be there at the shoulder of our greatest ally (rightly so) but just once I'd like to see him say 'why?' before doing what George tells him.

 

[SINthysist]

Wait a second, p_p_ keeps telling me George is the dumbass, you tell me it's Tony,...

How'd they get there then short of being totally representational of their respective constituencies?