Wanted: Formatting Advice

[Fflow]

I posted a poem some time ago and, for whatever reason, received no votes or comments. One person suggested that, perhaps, it was the formatting that caused people to not read it.


The original version is posted, in its entirety, here:

http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=183980


Here is the first part, as I wrote it:

The cigarette ash burns long as the song plays out on the stout man's handsome victrola, turned softly toward the dawn. Music becomes a pawn in this game of life. His wife, a slight thing, wrings her hands and cries with eyes full of tears. Years pass and no one knows of the faded memories of seas and songs, of travels beyond this conduit of moments. Tents rise, and nomads rest, the dust and sand caressed their skin and eyes. Horses and camels with detailed enameled reins spit and whinny as the sun lights upon the face of Albert Finney as Geoffrey Firmin, drunk on loss and draped in ermine, waiting for Jacqueline, beset by ghosts that never rest. The faded streets that run along these ancient ways bring faded days to faded ends, resplendent in the dust of history.




Here is the same bit reformatted to appear more traditionally poetical:

The cigarette ash burns long
as the song
plays out
on the stout
man's handsome victrola,
turned softly toward the dawn.

Music becomes a pawn
in this game of life.
His wife,
a slight thing,
wrings her hands and cries
with eyes
full of tears.

Years pass and no
one knows
of the faded memories
of seas
and songs, of travels beyond
this conduit of moments.

Tents rise,
and nomads rest,
the dust and sand caressed
their skin and eyes.

Horses and camels
with detailed enameled
reins spit and whinny
as the sun lights upon the face of Albert Finney
as Geoffrey Firmin,
drunk on loss and draped in ermine,
waiting for Jacqueline, beset
by ghosts that never rest.

The faded streets that run
along these ancient ways
bring faded days
to faded ends,
resplendent in the dust of history.


----


So, feedback please!

 

[WickedEve]

I remember the poem, and the only reason I didn't read it is because it seemed like too much of a mouthful.

The way you're presenting the poem now seems fine.

 

[Fflow]

Musings on Madness

Here is something I wrote in correspondance with a person who suggested the creation of this thread:

I will say in my defense that, in all of the English Lit classes I took in college, nobody ever told me that poetry had to look a particular way. 'A History Of Madness' was written to be poetry and, if I had formatted it differently, it might appear to be more poetical, but its nature is that of a poem. It does have both a rhythm and rhyme within it, and that was one reason why I posted the audio version.

At its heart is a type of free association based on a core idea. It also, in my mind, referenced the heraldic or bardic style of using poetry to recount the history of a family, or of a people. So, it was my hope that, when read aloud, it would have a certain mellifluousness that helped it flow trippingly off the tongue.

 

[WickedEve]

It doesn't have to look any particular way, and the way it was is fine, and the way it is now is also fine. The only reason I personally passed on the poem is because I don't always have time to read that much, and it looked like a lot there for a poem. There's nothing wrong at all with the content. I wouldn't change it. Or maybe you could submit the newer version. It may be interesting to see if it receives comments and a better score.

 

[WickedEve]

There may be one other reason that the poem didn't do well here on lit. There are writers who submit (what appears to be) short, porn stories as poetry. I think some readers simply pass up poetry that has the appearance of prose.

 

[Reltne]

What she said!

There may be one other reason that the poem didn't do well here on lit. There are writers who submit (what appears to be) short, porn stories as poetry. I think some readers simply pass up poetry that has the appearance of prose.

. . . Or at least kind of. If a submission is in paragraph form on the New Poems board I probably won't read it. Usually they are, as WE says, prose pieces too short to make it to the main story board, or rants/diatribes.
On the other end of the format spectrum I also usually skip list poems.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I think that if a piece is constructed as a prose-poem, if that is its genesis, then that's what it should be.

I have posted both prose-poetry and list poems, and both types were well received. Although yes, Reltne and Eve have very good points about what prose-poetry usually is in Lit, and why most people stay away. I don't know how those poems would have been received if I hadn't posted them under my own name.

 

[WickedEve]

I don't know how those poems would have been received if I hadn't posted them under my own name.

That's true. If I had been more familiar with fflow's work, then I would have been more likely to have read it. If I see a prose-poem under your name, Lauren, I'll read it because I know it's going to be good. You simply have to be careful here at lit, or you'll get trapped in the middle of some dreadful porn story pretending to be a poem. lol

 

[WickedEve]

On the other end of the format spectrum I also usually skip list poems.

List poems scare me away, too. Even though I've read good ones, I rarely take the time to read one--unless I'm familiar with the poet.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

List poems scare me away, too. Even though I've read good ones, I rarely take the time to read one--unless I'm familiar with the poet.

I'm guilty of that as well. Which may be unjust, because I got some very good feedback on the only one I have posted (Lapsus Carnis), but the truth is that many, many of the ones that pop-up in the New Poetry list offer very little that is new (or poetry).

 

[WickedEve]

I'm guilty of that as well. Which may be unjust, because I got some very good feedback on the only one I have posted (Lapsus Carnis), but the truth is that many, many of the ones that pop-up in the New Poetry list offer very little that is new (or poetry).

I just read it. It's an intelligent list poem. There was no drip or squish or pussy or fire in it.

 

[Reltne]

List

I'm guilty of that as well. Which may be unjust, because I got some very good feedback on the only one I have posted (Lapsus Carnis), but the truth is that many, many of the ones that pop-up in the New Poetry list offer very little that is new (or poetry).

Maybe we should make a list of the people who don't like list poems,
or a list of the poems WE don't like.
But that might be lopsided and make us all list. . . or maybe lisp. . .
Whose got that mouthwash??

 

[Fflow]

Better Score?

I am not worried about getting a better score because, as of this morning, it had not received a single vote.

I, personally, do not think it reads better broken up. I think that doing so reflects a certain unjustified accomodation to narrow thinking. I don't intend to be critical but, honestly, there are many great poems (Howl , for example) that are both long and not traditionally formatted. To me, this reflects a fast food instant gratification mentality that is, quite frankly, tragic. We are so eager for the quick fix, and too lazy to work for our edification.

Here, I had hoped for more.




.

 

[Angeline]

I am not worried about getting a better score because, as of this morning, it had not received a single vote.

I, personally, do not think it reads better broken up. I think that doing so reflects a certain unjustified accomodation to narrow thinking. I don't intend to be critical but, honestly, there are many great poems (Howl , for example) that are both long and not traditionally formatted. To me, this reflects a fast food instant gratification mentality that is, quite frankly, tragic. We are so eager for the quick fix, and too lazy to work for our edification.

Here, I had hoped for more.




.

Some poems read better in a prose-like format; some don't. And yknow, every reader responds differently--not everyone wants to work at understanding James Joyce, for example. Hasn't that always been true? And not everyone is trained in reading writers like Joyce--or Shakespeare for that matter. I hated Shakespeare and Dickens until I studied them in college and was taught how to approach the ways they write. Lack of edification doesn't necessarily come from laziness, no?



And isn't it about taste, too? I hate Melville. HATE his writing (although come to think of it Bartleby the Scrivener is brilliant). I also hate Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, but only because it's so unremittingly depressing (and also cause I had to memorize part of it in high school). But that's my taste...

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I am not worried about getting a better score because, as of this morning, it had not received a single vote.

I, personally, do not think it reads better broken up. I think that doing so reflects a certain unjustified accomodation to narrow thinking. I don't intend to be critical but, honestly, there are many great poems (Howl , for example) that are both long and not traditionally formatted. To me, this reflects a fast food instant gratification mentality that is, quite frankly, tragic. We are so eager for the quick fix, and too lazy to work for our edification.

Here, I had hoped for more.
.

You're preaching to the choir on that aspect. We have all written pieces in less-than-traditional format.

The heart of the matter is that there are dozens of poems posted every day, and we don't always have time or the disposition to read all of them (That is the reason why the New Poetry Reviews thread was started, by the way). We have only a limited time to read poetry online, and so we must be selective: that's why a grabbing title is important; that's why we read more poems from familiar authors.

The great majory - and I mean GREAT majority of the prose that appears on the poetry section is made of stream-of-consciousness blog-age rants and story-rejects due to length.

 

[WickedEve]

Some poems read better in a prose-like format; some don't. And yknow, every reader responds differently--not everyone wants to work at understanding James Joyce, for example. Hasn't that always been true? And not everyone is trained in reading writers like Joyce--or Shakespeare for that matter. I hated Shakespeare and Dickens until I studied them in college and was taught how to approach the ways they write. Lack of edification doesn't necessarily come from laziness, no?



And isn't it about taste, too? I hate Melville. HATE his writing (although come to think of it Bartleby the Scrivener is brilliant). I also hate Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, but only because it's so unremittingly depressing (and also cause I had to memorize part of it in high school). But that's my taste...

Well put, and there are many writers I'm willing to take my time with. But at lit, I don't have a great deal of time to spend on too many poets I'm not familiar with. Nothing personal, fflow, but I don't see your name on the new poems list and get excited, and that's simply because I haven't yet had time to become familiar with your work.

To me, this reflects a fast food instant gratification mentality that is, quite frankly, tragic. We are so eager for the quick fix, and too lazy to work for our edification.

Here, I had hoped for more.

I'm really not sure why you hoped for more here. And your comments about the fast food mentality and laziness are frankly condescending to those here who don't have time to indulge in longer poems.

 

[annaswirls]

an attempt

To each his own, personally, I am not crazy about prose poems. I would rather read either prose or a poem


I think when you chopped it up to have a more traditional flow, you made the lines too short, and hence lost the flow.

Let me give it a try if you do not mind. Not that you should change it, just to see if you could change it without losing the feel it had a prose poem. (I cut some words like the and these more like a traditional form)


The cigarette ash burns
long as the song plays out.
The stout man's handsome victrola
turns softly toward the dawn.

Music becomes a pawn in this game of life.
His wife, a slight thing, wrings her hands
and cries with eyes full of tears.
Years pass and no one knows
faded memories of seas and songs,
travels beyond this conduit of moments.


Tents rise, and nomads rest.
Dust and sand caress skin and eyes.
Horses and camels with detailed enameled reins
spit and whinny as the sun lights upon the face
of Albert Finney as Geoffrey Firmin,
drunk on loss and draped in ermine,
waiting for Jacqueline,
beset by ghosts that never rest.

Faded streets that run along ancient ways
bring faded days to faded ends,
resplendent in the dust of history.

I posted a poem some time ago and, for whatever reason, received no votes or comments. One person suggested that, perhaps, it was the formatting that caused people to not read it.


The original version is posted, in its entirety, here:

http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=183980


Here is the first part, as I wrote it:

The cigarette ash burns long as the song plays out on the stout man's handsome victrola, turned softly toward the dawn. Music becomes a pawn in this game of life. His wife, a slight thing, wrings her hands and cries with eyes full of tears. Years pass and no one knows of the faded memories of seas and songs, of travels beyond this conduit of moments. Tents rise, and nomads rest, the dust and sand caressed their skin and eyes. Horses and camels with detailed enameled reins spit and whinny as the sun lights upon the face of Albert Finney as Geoffrey Firmin, drunk on loss and draped in ermine, waiting for Jacqueline, beset by ghosts that never rest. The faded streets that run along these ancient ways bring faded days to faded ends, resplendent in the dust of history.




Here is the same bit reformatted to appear more traditionally poetical:

The cigarette ash burns long
as the song
plays out
on the stout
man's handsome victrola,
turned softly toward the dawn.

Music becomes a pawn
in this game of life.
His wife,
a slight thing,
wrings her hands and cries
with eyes
full of tears.

Years pass and no
one knows
of the faded memories
of seas
and songs, of travels beyond
this conduit of moments.

Tents rise,
and nomads rest,
the dust and sand caressed
their skin and eyes.

Horses and camels
with detailed enameled
reins spit and whinny
as the sun lights upon the face of Albert Finney
as Geoffrey Firmin,
drunk on loss and draped in ermine,
waiting for Jacqueline, beset
by ghosts that never rest.

The faded streets that run
along these ancient ways
bring faded days
to faded ends,
resplendent in the dust of history.


----


So, feedback please!

 

[sandspike]

F flow, for what its worth

1. I think you have to be around awhile and get poeple who will always read your
work.
2. Read the lay out Anna posted above me. That form works better for me than
your two. I could sense a rhythm and that makes it flow better. I don't ask
anyone to edit my ditties, but I may start sending them all to Anna. It is a better
poem after she worked it over. I give it a 4 in that form.

 

[Fflow]

frankly condescending

Sure. I guess I can come across that way. I'd like to apologize, but won't.

I will admit that, although I've been posting stories on lit for many years now, posting poetry is a bit newer for me. As an outsider, it seems to me that there is a strange cultural phenomenon here that I was unaware of, one that favors the familiar. I, finding nothing here that is familiar, am happy to explore a variety of authors, and do not rely on the opinions of others to guide me.

My natural inclination is to read works by people who post well considered, well articulated comments here in the forum. So far, that has proved to be an excellent methodology for finding good work.

To Anna: Thank you for the revised formatting. I had, at first, tried that style of line break but feared that the rhyme falling mid-sentence might confuse people.

Oh, and btw... The audio version of the poem is under 3 minutes. I suppose one might be able to squeeze five or six shorter poems under one's belt in that time, if one was focused solely on quantity... Ooops. I think I'm being condescending again...


xoxo


fflow

 

[Tathagata]

I am not worried about getting a better score because, as of this morning, it had not received a single vote.

I, personally, do not think it reads better broken up. I think that doing so reflects a certain unjustified accomodation to narrow thinking. I don't intend to be critical but, honestly, there are many great poems (Howl , for example) that are both long and not traditionally formatted. To me, this reflects a fast food instant gratification mentality that is, quite frankly, tragic. We are so eager for the quick fix, and too lazy to work for our edification.

Here, I had hoped for more.




.

You seem to be constantly defending and having to explain your work.
Any advice offered is usually brushed aside as " narrow thinking" or the average Lit reader not "getting it"
After this kind of egotistical behavior do you really think the people here are going to come out in droves to read your stuff?
You basically tell them you are much smarter than them, that you don't expect them to understand, and then wonder why no one read or voted on it.

If you have so little faith in your audience here and if you don't care about their opinion or feed back...why are you here??
If I didn't think anyone here " understood" my work I wouldn't post here..it makes no sense.

 

[Fflow]

Tathagata

My issue has never been with people not understanding my work. If you believe that, you have failed to understand me. If you re-read this thread, it is perfectly clear that I've positied one very simple proposition:

1) Is a familiar formatting style more valid or "better" than one less familiar?

It has, subsequently, come up that some people simply do not read work that appears different to them.

They have intimated
that poetry should look
Like this.

It has also been stated here that, if a poem exceeds a certain unknown and arbitrary length, people won't read it.

It has also come out that, if one is not part of a clique, one's work is generally disreguarded. I didn't say this. Others have.

There are many reasons, it seems, not to read poetry.

So, it is perfectly clear that very few, if any, have even bothered to read A History of Madness, or listened to the audio post. Understanding can only come after aprehension.

Lastly, in all honesty, I have found that there are those here who are kind, humorous, supportive, constructive, and cheerful. I value their opinions.

xoox

Fflow

 

[Tathagata]

My issue has never been with people not understanding my work. If you believe that, you have failed to understand me. If you re-read this thread, it is perfectly clear that I've positied one very simple proposition:

Fflow

~shrug~

I go by this statement
https://forum.literotica.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11520149

" the average lit reader" etc etc..

It seems you are constantly being misunderstood...as I said in the beginning.

I would suggest that if the poem was posted and it wasviewed but had no comments or votes the fault may not be exclusively in formatting.

 

[Fflow]

Be Happy!

Lol - You sound pretty 'cocksure'!

Go by whatever statement you care to, my friend. Live your life as you see fit. You are focused on something that is, quite clearly, existing in a different thread, and in a different context, while at the same time completely ignoring other more meaningful, and more on-topic statements.

I hope that doing so makes you happy.

 

[Fflow]

btw

Maybe with all this banter I'll finally get to post my AV!

 

[PatCarrington]

It has, subsequently, come up that some people simply do not read work that appears different to them.

It has also come out that, if one is not part of a clique, one's work is generally disreguarded. I didn't say this. Others have.

There are many reasons, it seems, not to read poetry.

So, it is perfectly clear that very few, if any, have even bothered to read A History of Madness, or listened to the audio post.

Fflow

since you insist on making an issue out of this with statements such as those i included above, and with continued posts like the last one, i will tell you that i, for one, read "A History of Madness," and went back to read it again just now.

truthfully, i found i could not comment on it, since i leave only comments of praise and minimal suggestion (if any).

i found it too similar to most of your posts.....windy.

though it did contain less of your penchant for killing mosquitoes with sledgehammers, and none of your obvious and chronic condescension.

that is as complimentary as i can be about the piece. and it’s just opinion, of course.

that’s what makes the world go round.

that, and perhaps lollipops to sugarcoat haughtiness.

<---- patrick's version of a cherry blowpop.