Want to keep your child? Stop Smoking

[Just-Legal]

So I either quit smoking or never get divorced >.<

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=22284&in_page_id=34

A mother has lost custody of her six-year-old son because she smokes.

Judges ruled that Tammy Pierce's exhusband Joel should raise the couple's only child because of the mother's 20-aday habit.

They said that, while both parents had provided son Joel Junior with a 'warm, loving home', Mrs Pierce's habit had to be the deciding factor.

After the ruling – thought to be the first of its kind in the US – Mrs Pierce, 32, said: 'I am a good, caring and loving mother and now my heart has been broken. I really can't bear to smoke any more.'

Mr Pierce, also 32, told the court his son's clothes always smelled strongly of smoke after staying with his mother.

And he claimed a doctor advised him the smoke might have caused some of his son's illnesses, such as ear infections.

The court cited various health reports which link second-hand smoke to respiratory illnesses.

The three-judge panel said a parent who smokes was a 'proper factor to consider when making child custody determinations'.

After the judgment, Mrs Pierce was forced to take her son out of school and send him to live with his father, more than 2,000km away in Ohio.

Former nurse Mrs Pierce, who has since remarried and lives in Sanford, Florida, now sees her son only during school holidays.

'I never once smoked in front of Joel or even in the house,' she said. 'I have cared for Joel from the moment he was born.

I never once dreamed there would be a day when a court would tell me I couldn't look after him.'

Mrs Pierce is planning to appeal.

 

[fieryjen]

If the parents are equally suited to take care of the child, I must admit I am glad to see that custody does not go to the mother just because she is the mother. So the child is far, far away from her now - this is exactly the situation the father would have been in had the mother kept custody. But because she's the mother, it's a much bigger, more heartbreaking deal.

 

[cloudy]

If the parents are equally suited to take care of the child, I must admit I am glad to see that custody does not go to the mother just because she is the mother. So the child is far, far away from her now - this is exactly the situation the father would have been in had the mother kept custody. But because she's the mother, it's a much bigger, more heartbreaking deal.

Obviously, you don't have children. When you do, come back and roll your eyes about this again. It always amazes me when people who don't have kids know SO MUCH about it, and the custody battles that ensue when people divorce.

Until then, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[S-Des]

Obviously, you don't have children. When you do, come back and roll your eyes about this again. It always amazes me when people who don't have kids know SO MUCH about it, and the custody battles that ensue when people divorce.

Until then, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Ok, I have a kid, and I was completely dismissed as a possible caregiver because I'm a man. My daughter was raised 45 hours a week in daycare (since she was 6 weeks old) and I wasn't allowed to even take her out to a park (because it would be too much of a strain on the poor daycare). So what's your point...

 

[cloudy]

Ok, I have a kid, and I was completely dismissed as a possible caregiver because I'm a man. My daughter was raised 45 hours a week in daycare (since she was 6 weeks old) and I wasn't allowed to even take her out to a park (because it would be too much of a strain on the poor daycare). So what's your point...

This is a sore point with me, I'll admit.

Currently, I have a choice of staying where I am, and being unhappy for the rest of my life, or spending the rest of my life with the man I love, but not being able to raise my youngest child - simply because he's in a different country.

I agree that sometimes the mother isn't the best choice for custodial parent, but in the case cited, it sounds like the father was grasping at straws. And Jen rolling her eyes really pissed me off.

I know nothing about your case, so don't jump on me. I said nothing about you. I can't help it if you have an issue with just about anything I say...that's a personal problem.

 

[ImpureThoughts]

If she smokes outside, I don't see why it's even an issue.

 

[cloudy]

If she smokes outside, I don't see why it's even an issue.

Thank you.

Like I said, it sounds like the father was grasping at straws.

 

[scheherazade_79]

Mr Pierce, also 32, told the court his son's clothes always smelled strongly of smoke after staying with his mother.

Mr Pierce sounds like a right bastard.

 

[S-Des]

This is a sore point with me, I'll admit.

Currently, I have a choice of staying where I am, and being unhappy for the rest of my life, or spending the rest of my life with the man I love, but not being able to raise my youngest child - simply because he's in a different country.

I agree that sometimes the mother isn't the best choice for custodial parent, but in the case cited, it sounds like the father was grasping at straws. And Jen rolling her eyes really pissed me off.

I know nothing about your case, so don't jump on me. I said nothing about you. I can't help it if you have an issue with just about anything I say...that's a personal problem.

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I took her rolling eyes as her saying that she's tired of it always being assumed that the man can't love his children as much as the mom (she rolled the eyes after the comment about how it's only heartbreaking when it happens to a woman), in which case I agree with her. Maybe she meant it differently *shrug*. Since I have my own issue I'm sensitive about, I was defending her, not jumping on you.

It's impossible to guess all the factors in this court decision (you know the newspaper is going to report it from the most sensational angle). Hopefully, they didn't really put that much emphasis on it. Although not a smoker, I wouldn't want to see courts trying to force people to stop smoking by breaking up their families.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If the parents are equally suited to take care of the child, I must admit I am glad to see that custody does not go to the mother just because she is the mother. So the child is far, far away from her now - this is exactly the situation the father would have been in had the mother kept custody. But because she's the mother, it's a much bigger, more heartbreaking deal.

It is indeed a far bigger, more heartbreaking deal.
When you have kids, sweets, you will, for the first time in your life, come up against an irrestistable force.
For the first time in your life, there will be someone else that means more to you than your own life.
As much as fathers love their chidren- and they do, desperately- this hits most women at a molecular level.

You have NO idea.

 

[cloudy]

It is indeed a far bigger, more heartbreaking deal.
When you have kids, sweets, you will, for the first time in your life, come up against an irrestistable force.
For the first time in your life, there will be someone else that means more to you than your own life.
As much as fathers love their chidren- and they do, desperately- this hits most women at a molecular level.

You have NO idea.

Exactly.

 

[TheEarl]

Obviously, you don't have children. When you do, come back and roll your eyes about this again. It always amazes me when people who don't have kids know SO MUCH about it, and the custody battles that ensue when people divorce.

Until then, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Cloudy, hon, she was just saying that custody had to go somewhere and that it was good to see a case being looked at on its merits (however flimsy they may be) instead of custody automatically going to the mother without anything else being considered.

Breathe, okay <smiles>

The Earl

 

[S-Des]

It is indeed a far bigger, more heartbreaking deal.
When you have kids, sweets, you will, for the first time in your life, come up against an irrestistable force.
For the first time in your life, there will be someone else that means more to you than your own life.
As much as fathers love their chidren- and they do, desperately- this hits most women at a molecular level.

You have NO idea.

Again, not looking to fight, but you will never get me to say that my ex loves my daughter more than I do. I don't care what logic you use to get there. She didn't give up her entire life to spend more time with her. Maybe it is more common that the mother is more bonded to the child than the father, but it is by no means a universal truth. If you'd like, I could print up a few thousand articles about mothers who have abused, abondoned, or even murdered their children for a variety of reasons (often completely selfish).

Believe what you want, I'm not going to be able to change anyone's mind. However, I find it funny that people attack Jen because she can't possibly understand, not having children herself (assuming she doesn't). But women are perfectly content to pronounce that they love the children more than a man does, despite NEVER having been a man.

Whatever...

 

[Just-Legal]

Again, not looking to fight, but you will never get me to say that my ex loves my daughter more than I do. I don't care what logic you use to get there. She didn't give up her entire life to spend more time with her. Maybe it is more common that the mother is more bonded to the child than the father, but it is by no means a universal truth. If you'd like, I could print up a few thousand articles about mothers who have abused, abondoned, or even murdered their children for a variety of reasons (often completely selfish).

Believe what you want, I'm not going to be able to change anyone's mind. However, I find it funny that people attack Jen because she can't possibly understand, not having children herself (assuming she doesn't). But women are perfectly content to pronounce that they love the children more than a man does, despite NEVER having been a man.

Whatever...

Des, I think Stella's comment was aimed at Firey not you.

I know this is an emotive issue guys, take a deep breath. Group hug?

 

[cloudy]

Again, not looking to fight, but you will never get me to say that my ex loves my daughter more than I do. I don't care what logic you use to get there. She didn't give up her entire life to spend more time with her. Maybe it is more common that the mother is more bonded to the child than the father, but it is by no means a universal truth. If you'd like, I could print up a few thousand articles about mothers who have abused, abondoned, or even murdered their children for a variety of reasons (often completely selfish).

Believe what you want, I'm not going to be able to change anyone's mind. However, I find it funny that people attack Jen because she can't possibly understand, not having children herself (assuming she doesn't). But women are perfectly content to pronounce that they love the children more than a man does, despite NEVER having been a man.

Whatever...

Stella said most women, not all.

I gladly acknowledge that men (most) love their children as much as women do, but in my experience with my kids dads - it's a different love. Mine is almost visceral, it's as Stella says, on the molecular level. Yours may be, too, I have no idea, but my kids fathers haven't felt the same as I did.

 

[cloudy]

Cloudy, hon, she was just saying that custody had to go somewhere and that it was good to see a case being looked at on its merits (however flimsy they may be) instead of custody automatically going to the mother without anything else being considered.

Breathe, okay <smiles>

The Earl

I'm fine, just fed up with people who have no children knowing what's best for people who DO.

 

[S-Des]

Des, I think Stella's comment was aimed at Firey not you.

I know this is an emotive issue guys, take a deep breath. Group hug?

I'll take it. And I still love all of you (you too Cloudy ).

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'll take it. And I still love all of you (you too Cloudy ).

I want to love you, S-Des... but I can't... not until you take that tie off.

 

[fieryjen]

Apologies to anyone that might have been offended by my comment.

No, I do not have children. I do not presume to know as much as people who do have children.

But I believe that it is not a good thing to assume that the mother is automatically the better caregiver, and that all mothers love their children more than the fathers do. Lots of fathers would be pretty offended by that, and I understand why. I also meant to comment on the situation in general, not just this specific case. Maybe the father in this case sounds like he is grasping at straws. But if it is verifiable that both parents are good caregivers, and that the mother's smoking did cause health problems in the child, I don't see how it is not appropriate to let the father have custody.

I am rolling my eyes because there have been so many cases where fathers have been barred from being able to even see their children, simply because they happened to be the wrong gender. People generally don't feel sorry for them, and my question is - why not? It bothers me that the concern for the parent in question is so one-sided.

 

[Liar]

...

hm...nah

(post in da wrong thread, nothing to see here)

 

[Stella_Omega]

ah, not to worry, Jen.

I freely ackowledge that some women are missing the mothering instict- and would be far better off without their kids. And I would call women like this psychotic. Something isn't working inside.

I don't know what kind of people you know- but most people DO feel bad for the fathers that get victimised by the custody bias.
It's a very ugly, no-win, situation, all around.

 

[rgraham666]

Back to the original point.

Basically, health is one of our modern religions. Good health promises us eternal life and happiness.

Therefore smokers, who endanger this wonder with their sinful ways, have to be punished. They certainly can't be allowed to raise children.

I'm being sarcastic.

 

[fieryjen]

ah, not to worry, Jen.

I freely ackowledge that some women are missing the mothering instict- and would be far better off without their kids. And I would call women like this psychotic. Something isn't working inside.

I don't know what kind of people you know- but most people DO feel bad for the fathers that get victimised by the custody bias.
It's a very ugly, no-win, situation, all around.

I have never had to go through the ugliness of a divorce, although my folks did come close one time. It is nothing I wish to ever experience, or have my children experience.

I wasn't actually referring to the people I know personally, but the tone most articles about this topic are written in and the public reactions to it.

I realize that there are plenty of women out there who love their children much more than the fathers of those children. But I personally know quite a few couples for which it is just the other way round. And I do believe that if they ever did get divorces/separated, awarding custody to the mother would be blatantly unfair, unless there are circumstances I am not aware of. Yet, most people would not find this decision odd in the slightest. This does bother me, because while in general, women may be more connected to their children, I don't think this is enough to base a court decision solely on it.

 

[Liar]

But while I'm here...

To be fair, none of us know much about the actual case to either apply our own experiences or genralizations to it. It's a newspiece, through the mother's POV as the angle.

Maybe there was real negligence re. the smoking situation that lead to health issues? I don't know, could be, could not, might mattet, might not. And I'm definitely not going to touch the whole mother vs father thing. Partly because I might be torn a new one by y'all based on that I'm niether. Partly because there are no general answers. There just can't be.

But I wouldn't want to demonize (or angelify, is that a word?) the other part in the conflict as a straw grasping rat bastard based on a one-view article.

Just sayin'.

 

[cloudy]

I'll admit, I can't be objective about this subject, since I'm sort of going through this type of thing now, with a soon-to-be-ex that will stoop to any level to hurt me (forget what's best for my child).

I'll bow out now.