Walk and talk; of hats and cattle.

[bouquiniste]

A friend recently placed an ad on Lit, looking for a long-term relationship with a dominant man. After sifting through countless replies from gentlemen who clearly were unsuited to her tastes, she found a fellow who lived remarkably close by - only an hour's drive away - and they began to correspond regularly.

At length, they chatted on the telephone, and finally agreed to meet (note to the Safety Police: they did meet in a public place) face to face. The result, of course, was quite nearly an horror story in that he was nothing at all like the persona which he'd projected earlier. Owed to the fact that she'd prefer not to be directly identified with the result, she's asked that I post this in her stead - a set of, "clues" about 'doms' who are all hat and no cattle. Please feel free to add your own, or to object to her opinion. Here 'conclusions' here are largely in her own words, albeit somewhat condensed to brevity's sake.




In their initial 'exploration' via private messages, she noted that he failed to use apostrophes for possessive and contracted forms. It wasn't that he was unaware - he simply chose not to use them.

Her conclusion: anyone who promotes himself as a 'dom' should present himself as a leader - someone who, by his example, sets the bar for others' actions.


They'd agreed to meet at a specific time at a restaurant near her home. The time came and went, and fifteen minutes after the agreed-upon hour, he called to say that he was, "running late."

Her conclusion: promptness counts - and counts especially in someone whose perceived rôle is one of dominance.


Eventually he appeared - more than half an hour late, and admitted sheepishly though not apologetically, that he'd managed to get lost en route.

Her conclusion: good planning is essential, and is especially essential in a fellow whose goal it is to take a dominant rôle in a budding Relationship. Poor planning often carries over into the sexual side of a Relationship, and allowing a poor planner to take control of a situation inside the confines of WIITWD can spell disaster. Beyond this, that he 'hid' the fact that he was lost suggests an hint of subterfuge, and even the smallest measure of dishonesty in a new Relationship speaks very poorly of its chance to succeed.


She'd arrived fifteen minutes early, in a vintage day dress, neither overly modest nor particularly racy. He was dressed in 'trappings' - a leather vest over an un-ironed black shirt opened a few too many buttons for propriety's sake.

Her conclusion: just the icing on the, "all hat and no cattle," cake. If you talk the talk, you need to walk the walk.



She will be reading this thread, and has voiced her interest in what others feel about the conclusions she's drawn from this experience. Thanks in advance for taking the time and energy to respond.



Caveat: I have no horse in this race. I'm neither a 'dom' nor a 'sub,' though I eschew the label, "switch," because it's all too often seen as a part of simple sexuality rather than as being part and parcel to a committed romantic Relationship, and I distance myself from the term, "sadomasochist," for similar reasons.
.

 

[littlebirdjoy]

Interesting focus and conclusions. I don't think anyone can call her conclusions into question. She was the one present it is only her perception of the situation and what qualities are most important to her. That said, I am curious about the things she did not focus on which i would have pur much more weight on.

I'm more lenient for the human factor I guess. I am certainly guilty of paying next to zero attention to capitalizing my proper noun I as I type on my phone. I know I should, but honestly, it doesnt detract from the meaning and more times than I'd like to count proofreading means I get logged out and lose a solid hour or more of writing. it happened to me even today! Now if he lacked depth of conversation and ability to communicate on a level that she was comfortable with then perhaps that should have gone into the decision to meet?

I do see her point about running late. it is a matter of manners for me though. If you are going to be late, it happens. We are human after all, and I'm a big believer that it is better to be safe than be on time. However, if you are going to be late, call. It's a matter of respect for the other's time and their concern as well.

I can understand his choice of clothing may not have been her personal taste. I'll ask this: was his shirt ironed? Were his shoes clean or shined? Did it look he put effort in? Maybe it is nerves. There are a billion reasons we pick our wardrobe, maybe something she said led him to believe this would be a pick she would approve of. Maybe this was his personal style. We can't possibly know from one encounter.

I'm curious about other things though. Who led the conversation? How good was he at picking up her body language, verbal and nonverbal cues? Did he ever alter course because he read them? How was his body language? Did he make eye contact? What of his facial expressions? Did he appear casual and at ease or uncomfortable or stifled and on edge? What of his conversation skills in general? Lastly his hands. Did she pay attention to how he moved his hands? I won't explain that one publicly but if she would like to know why I zero in on the hands feel free to PM me. These are the things that I personally pay far more attention to than punctuation, punctuality, and presentation.


Good luck sweety, you will find your match someday when it is right.
~Angie

 

[Bramblethorn]

This sounds like an irritating experience - at least, it would be to me - and your friend is well within her rights to decide that this guy isn't what she needs, but I think it's over-reaching to turn this into some sort of Universal Law of Domliness.

In their initial 'exploration' via private messages, she noted that he failed to use apostrophes for possessive and contracted forms. It wasn't that he was unaware - he simply chose not to use them.

Her conclusion: anyone who promotes himself as a 'dom' should present himself as a leader - someone who, by his example, sets the bar for others' actions.

I'm a professional editor, among other things. Misuse of apostrophes irks me, when it's driven by laziness. But connecting this to leadership seems tenuous; some people simply don't view this kind of thing as a priority. Sometimes it's even a statement of leadership in itself: "I'm the boss, so I don't have to play by these petty rules."

(And, I repeat, other people are well within their rights to find that irksome and not to date people who have those particular priorities. But it doesn't make them non-leaderly.)

They'd agreed to meet at a specific time at a restaurant near her home. The time came and went, and fifteen minutes after the agreed-upon hour, he called to say that he was, "running late."

Her conclusion: promptness counts - and counts especially in someone whose perceived rôle is one of dominance.

Again, it's perfectly valid to have a preference for punctuality, and turn down a dom who's bad at that. But this doesn't seem to have much to do with dominance per se.

(I'd say a bit more here but I have an engagement myself and don't want to be late, so I'd better leave it

 

[twister947]

Gotta trust your gut...

 

[ToPleaseHim]

Well...she should certainly trust her gut and decide who she does or doesn’t want to get into a relationship with. I am sure I would not have drawn the same conclusions, though, at least not from what was presented.*shrug*

The first few are not red flags. I don’t dig “apostrophe confusion” as a rule, but missing them doesn’t mean someone isn’t a Dom.

People get lost all the time. At least, I do. I’m not a Domme, but I’m a professional grown up, responsible for others, who sometimes gets lost.

Could it be the rumpled outfit was part of being nervous and frustrated because of lateness?

Maybe.
I don’t like the leather vest Dom Costume, and it may have put me off, but it sounds like she may be a bit tedious herself. Life happens.

All of this ^^^

To me, it seems like she has an idea of what a "Dom" should be and that's a one dimensional human whose every action is influenced by his "domliness" and who isnt a real person. Which is fine but is only going to lead to disappointment.

1. I agree with LBJ I'm curious what the rest of the date held of she even gave it a chance.

2. I hope she is always able to live up to the idea of the "perfect sub".

And all of this ^^^

Incidentally my partner is a terrible speller with awkward tendencies with punctuation. It’s a thing. He’s fucking brilliant, the smartest person I know, so damn creative and interesting. Those grammar quirks have no bearing on his ability to take control and be dominant. Why would they?

 

[cookiecat]

Have to agree with everyone else. Thes aren't dom red flags, they're people flags. Poor punctuation or grammar, showing up late, getting lost, costume attire. I'd dislike these things if I were on a vanilla date, meeting a new co-worker or friend.

How did this first meeting end? Did they chat?

She should trust her gut - if these flags are hard limits, so to speak, then by all means, she should cut and run.

I tend to cut people a little more slack in terms of grammar/punctuation, getting lost and being late. Even wardrobe isn't a deal breaker. First time I met my husband he was wearing this t-shirt with a buck on it and these unflattering old man jeans. He had a velcro wallet. But he turned me on. He treated me like gold. So. I could get past the wardrobe and the wallet.

Neither way is right. She knows what she likes.

For me, "bad" dom red flags are things like the guy who:
- brought his toy bag in to the restaurant to show me his toys.
- wanted me to go to the bathroom and take off my bra or panties to prove my submissive nature.
- wanted me to give him a blowjob in the bathroom of Starbucks.
- said I had to start every sentence with Sir, may I speak?

 

[wallflower6]

The first few are not red flags. I don’t dig “apostrophe confusion” as a rule, but missing them doesn’t mean someone isn’t a Dom.

People get lost all the time. At least, I do. I’m not a Domme, but I’m a professional grown up, responsible for others, who sometimes gets lost.

Could it be the rumpled outfit was part of being nervous and frustrated because of lateness?

Maybe.
I don’t like the leather vest Dom Costume, and it may have put me off, but it sounds like she may be a bit tedious herself. Life happens.

Do you get paid being a professional grown up?? I need that job.
Sorry - that just gave me the major giggles......which I really needed today.

Carry on.....sorry to intrupt.


To the one that is looking for her Dom - you will find one. It takes time. Good luck!

 

[AnnieLit]

A friend recently placed an ad on Lit, looking for a long-term relationship with a dominant man. After sifting through countless replies from gentlemen who clearly were unsuited to her tastes, she found a fellow who lived remarkably close by - only an hour's drive away - and they began to correspond regularly.


In their initial 'exploration' via private messages, she noted that he failed to use apostrophes for possessive and contracted forms. It wasn't that he was unaware - he simply chose not to use them.

Her conclusion: anyone who promotes himself as a 'dom' should present himself as a leader - someone who, by his example, sets the bar for others' actions.

If they corresponded regularly, she was irritated by his failure to use the apostrophes, and based on that came to the conclusion that he will not be a proper leader in a scene, then why did she even went to meet him?

She is annoyed that he did not value her time and was late, and yet she went on a date that had no chance of success. So who was wasting who's time?

Good luck to her, but she needs to be honest with herself -- if something does not feel right during the talking stage (even if it would be perfectly ok to everybody else), there is almost no chance of things being better face to face. Other way around it happens all the time - on paper things are perfect, in person not so much. But how great would guy have to be to overcome her prior negative "conclusions"? It's an impossible task.

Off. Somebody needs to write a story: a "victorian" style sub and a biker-dom meet online, chat and decide to meet. They have very vague idea of how the other person looks, but the place is empty, there are only two customers there, a man and a woman. They both come early and sit at different tables waiting for their dates, in the meantime glancing at each other, wondering if that is her/him, and coming to the conclusion that they did not want go with that person. When time goes by and nobody else comes, they realize that they indeed were looking at their dates the whole time. They leave without saying a word to each other, because they already came to all the conclusions based on the dress, manner of talking to the waiting staff, and general body language of the other. The end.

 

[Acktion]

Nope

Your friend is certainly entitled to think of herself as a submissive. And to think of her submission as a gift. She is entitled to be as prissy as she wishes and to be choosey in just who it is that she gifts with that submission.

However, since we are talking of hats and cattle, here's a little quote from a famous cowboy.

"Your right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose." ~ Will Rogers

She is entitled to determine for herself just whether this particular D-type is suitable for her. However, she is not entitled to determine whether he is a D-type at all. She is entitled to determine whether his brand of dominance matches her need for submission. She is not entitled to brand him as "not a Dom" any more than she would welcome someone else making the determination that she is or is not submissive.

Does my dazzling "I don't give a fuck" fashion sense mean that I am a Dom? It does not. Frankly, people are lucky that I pause to put on clothing at all since it is difficult to find any that doesn't cause me constant low-grade pain the entire time I am wearing it. And I am just as dominant in my soul whether I am wearing a pair of grey cotton sweatpants, black slacks, blue jeans, or a pair of pajama bottoms with a smiley face across the crotch.

Leather gear is durable and protective. And as someone who has required those things from clothing at various points, such as for example tooling down the highway at sixty-five or seventy miles an hour on a steel horse, I have accumulated a bit. And, before chronic nerve pain, once I'd gotten used to wearing it, I felt strange without anything less, almost naked. While I might find his choice of a leather vest only questionable, if it was cold, I could see him choosing to keep his body core warm with it.

And, yes, I have worn it on dates. Not to "look cool" because quite frankly I never have cared whether anyone else thought I was "cool" (whatever the fuck that means). I had too much other real shit to worry about. Like the former inmate I just spotted across the restaurant who had threatened to kill me when he found me "out in the free" who had gotten up and was walking in the direction of our table.

Does my rather idiosyncratic grammar mean that I am a dominant or no? Hardly. Oh, I do make an effort. After all, the entire point and purpose of communication is the exchange of ideas from one mind to another. And the use of language, including grammar, is necessary to ascertain whether such ideas are communicated clearly and exactly. However, again, I have other things to worry about than whether there are five grammatical errors in a thousand-word essay during a conversation with a supposed sapiosexual who seems incapable of communicating more than blurts of two to three sentences on the other side of a conversational gambit.

Does my being late for an appointment mean that I am or am not dominant? Well, it does depend on just why I am late. A former supervisor delighted in quoting the adage, "poor planning on your part does not equal an emergency on mine." (As a side note, he did not use it accurately, and I slammed him on it repeatedly when he misused it.) As a general rule of thumb, I try to get everywhere I need to be at a minimum fifteen minutes early.

However, as much of a control freak as I am, when other people get involved shit has a tendency to get out of my control. I am late because there was a wreck right in front of me, I stopped to render aid, then have to wait until EMS takes over and the police have questions for me? Fuck you if you have a problem with my tardiness. I am late because my front driver's side tire blew out, throwing me across the median in front of an oncoming eighteen-wheeler which narrowly missed me because I yanked my vehicle back across the median, narrowly missing a car in the front (that had been behind me when I had the blowout at seventy-five) and a pickup behind as I went between them, and needed a moment to compose myself before changing the flat? Again, fuck you if you have a problem. I'm late because I got lost? Well, why did I get lost? Was the road construction? A traffic accident causing detours? I'm typically good at directions. But, even so, if I am going someplace I've never been before, I try to make certain that I know at least three routes to get where I'm going. The rest should be covered by my leaving early enough to plan to arrive fifteen minutes early. However, it has happened that even with these measures in place, I have still been late. (Five minutes rather than a half-hour, but late is late.)

The one thing that I do see a problem with from your description is the failure to apologize and the attempt to obfuscate. However, that has nothing to do with being Domly or not, but just being a considerate human being.

And the thing is, even in the examples that I gave (actual examples from my past by the way), while I said here "fuck you if you have a problem with it," in the events, I did apologize and explain factually what had happened.

But, again, "Dom or not Dom" is not relevant. Not for anything mentioned in your examples. That is not her call. Nor is it mine. Nor yours. Nor anyone except his. Any more than anyone else has the right to say that she is a submissive or not other than herself.

No.

No one else has the right to tell me what I am or am not, how I feel, what I think.

No one else has the right to tell you what you are or are not, how you feel, what you think.

No one else has the right to tell your friend what she is or is not, how she feels, what she thinks. (Her Dom, when she finds him, has the right she gives him to tell her what to do, but not what she is, how she feels, or what she thinks.)

She met him. She didn't like what she found. Fine. He wasn't the right Dom for her. Acceptable.

But neither she, nor you, nor me, nor anyone else gets to put our brand on him and declare him "not Domly."

http://www.ibeamconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/dreamstime_s_28264573_branding_iron.jpg

But, happy trails to your friend. Success lies not in never getting knocked down, but in getting knocked down seven times and getting up eight.

 

[AnnieLit]

<everything he said>

Thank you for saying all that! It felt this way, but I could not quite put my finger on what was wrong. It really is that difference between "not my Dom" and "not a Dom at all".

 

[stxjimmy]

It's impossible to control others if you're not in control of yourself.
Punctuality should be paramount in this scenario. I recently met a prospective sub who was an hour late, and although she did ring to say she was delayed it did take the gloss off the experience.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Old thread but about a point that is important to me.

Your friend is certainly entitled to think of herself as a submissive. And to think of her submission as a gift. She is entitled to be as prissy as she wishes and to be choosey in just who it is that she gifts with that submission.

However, since we are talking of hats and cattle, here's a little quote from a famous cowboy.

"Your right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose." ~ Will Rogers

She is entitled to determine for herself just whether this particular D-type is suitable for her. However, she is not entitled to determine whether he is a D-type at all. She is entitled to determine whether his brand of dominance matches her need for submission. She is not entitled to brand him as "not a Dom" any more than she would welcome someone else making the determination that she is or is not submissive.

It really is that difference between "not my Dom" and "not a Dom at all".

This, a million times this!

This need to construct rules, guidelines, templates etc for the true/perfect dom/sub/male/female/partner and then measure/judge others by those standards, don’t really help anyone, do they?

I mean, knowing yourself and being aware about what you need and want and what drives you batty is a good thing, but the important word is you.
Trying to turn it into some universal standard and calling some of it red flags is at worst dangerous, because people get confused by all these messages and miss some real, serious red flags.

The one issue in the OP that I think is worth keeping an eye out for, is someone coming off as a very different person when you actually meet them in person. It still might just be the text/online filter but absolutely worth taking note of, as are any inconsistencies really.

Somebody needs to write a story: a "victorian" style sub and a biker-dom meet online, chat and decide to meet.

I’d definitely read that.

 

[AnnieLit]

Oh my, a pre corona post!
But I remember it, and remember feeling really uneasy reading it - I don't think I could get along well in real life neither with the friend, nor with the OP, as she agreed enough with this nonsense to post it.

I’d definitely read that.

From the way I described the bones of this story it does not look like it will be very popular on Lit: there is no sex in it beyond the preliminary written seduction.

 

[IrisAlthea]

But I remember it, and remember feeling really uneasy reading it - I don't think I could get along well in real life neither with the friend, nor with the OP, as she agreed enough with this nonsense to post it.

I felt the same except I read OP as male. Not sure why though.

From the way I described the bones of this story it does not look like it will be very popular on Lit:

Probably true.

 

[AnnieLit]

I felt the same except I read OP as male. Not sure why though.

I guess I am a bit sexist
I can see a woman thinking this way, but I can't imagine a man agreeing with any of the mentioned points. Neither a dom, or sub, or currently vanilla. In my experience men tend to pay much more attention to the substance than to the cover, and here it is all about the wrapping.

 

[EdEc]

A friend recently placed an ad on Lit, looking for a long-term relationship with a dominant man. After sifting through countless replies from gentlemen who clearly were unsuited to her tastes, she found a fellow who lived remarkably close by - only an hour's drive away - and they began to correspond regularly.

At length, they chatted on the telephone, and finally agreed to meet (note to the Safety Police: they did meet in a public place) face to face. The result, of course, was quite nearly an horror story in that he was nothing at all like the persona which he'd projected earlier. Owed to the fact that she'd prefer not to be directly identified with the result, she's asked that I post this in her stead - a set of, "clues" about 'doms' who are all hat and no cattle. Please feel free to add your own, or to object to her opinion. Here 'conclusions' here are largely in her own words, albeit somewhat condensed to brevity's sake.




In their initial 'exploration' via private messages, she noted that he failed to use apostrophes for possessive and contracted forms. It wasn't that he was unaware - he simply chose not to use them.

Her conclusion: anyone who promotes himself as a 'dom' should present himself as a leader - someone who, by his example, sets the bar for others' actions.


They'd agreed to meet at a specific time at a restaurant near her home. The time came and went, and fifteen minutes after the agreed-upon hour, he called to say that he was, "running late."

Her conclusion: promptness counts - and counts especially in someone whose perceived rôle is one of dominance.


Eventually he appeared - more than half an hour late, and admitted sheepishly though not apologetically, that he'd managed to get lost en route.

Her conclusion: good planning is essential, and is especially essential in a fellow whose goal it is to take a dominant rôle in a budding Relationship. Poor planning often carries over into the sexual side of a Relationship, and allowing a poor planner to take control of a situation inside the confines of WIITWD can spell disaster. Beyond this, that he 'hid' the fact that he was lost suggests an hint of subterfuge, and even the smallest measure of dishonesty in a new Relationship speaks very poorly of its chance to succeed.


She'd arrived fifteen minutes early, in a vintage day dress, neither overly modest nor particularly racy. He was dressed in 'trappings' - a leather vest over an un-ironed black shirt opened a few too many buttons for propriety's sake.

Her conclusion: just the icing on the, "all hat and no cattle," cake. If you talk the talk, you need to walk the walk.



She will be reading this thread, and has voiced her interest in what others feel about the conclusions she's drawn from this experience. Thanks in advance for taking the time and energy to respond.



Caveat: I have no horse in this race. I'm neither a 'dom' nor a 'sub,' though I eschew the label, "switch," because it's all too often seen as a part of simple sexuality rather than as being part and parcel to a committed romantic Relationship, and I distance myself from the term, "sadomasochist," for similar reasons.
.

You're a good friend.

 

[mondeoman1]

what an absolute wally

 

[gracie920101]

Holstein or Hereford, Stetson or Akubra?

 

[IrisAlthea]

Holstein or Hereford, Stetson or Akubra?

View attachment 2190748