Vulnerability & Betrayal

[impressive]

I can't seem to push this theme from my thoughts this morning.

These definitions, in particular:

vul·ner·a·ble [VUHL-ner-uh-buhl] –adjective
1. capable of or susceptible to being wounded or hurt

be·tray [bi-TREY] -verb (used with object)
2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

Maybe your thoughts will help me settle my own.

Anyone?

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

What's making you think about them so?

Vulnerability can be what happens when one IS betrayed.

Or one can be betray another to avoid becoming vulnerable.

yet they also exist and completely seperate concepts.

Are you feeling vulnerable to betryal? is that what's making you think about these, or do you not agree with the definitions as stated?

 

[buxxxom]

 

[impressive]

What's making you think about them so?

Vulnerability can be what happens when one IS betrayed.

Or one can be betray another to avoid becoming vulnerable.

yet they also exist and completely seperate concepts.

Are you feeling vulnerable to betryal? is that what's making you think about these, or do you not agree with the definitions as stated?

Hmmm ... It's not that straight forward.

I'm thinking about voluntary & involuntary vulnerability, if that makes any sense, and what happens when one shifts to the other.

 

[rgraham666]

Vulnerability is a simple fact of life. We're all vulnerable. The only way to avoid being vulnerable is to draw completely away from the world.

Having withdrawn once I find it to be an unsatisfying and lonely existence.

Betrayal is someone else's actions. And you aren't responsible for someone else's actions. Betrayal hurts, a lot, yes. But it's very survivable, and a good learning experience.

*HUGS* imp. A strong woman like you will get through this.

 

[mckai777]

I can't seem to push this theme from my thoughts this morning.

These definitions, in particular:

vul·ner·a·ble [VUHL-ner-uh-buhl] –adjective
1. capable of or susceptible to being wounded or hurt

be·tray [bi-TREY] -verb (used with object)
2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

Maybe your thoughts will help me settle my own.

Anyone?

To be betrayed while vulnerable is perhaps the worst feeling of all.

 

[Recidiva]

The only things I can think to say here that might be helpful, is that often to be betrayed, it's worse when you adopt the viewpoint of the betrayer. When you grant them power or give them a victory.

It's harder to be betrayed when you accept vulnerabilities as okay, and realize when betrayals happen, one you can walk away from, and learn from, while still maintaining your vulnerabilities (because they're what make us sensitive to the pleasures and pains of life), can be a learning experience and not a loss.

Not knowing the value or the extent of the betrayal, this could be helpful or completely dead wrong. Sometimes it's a mortal wound, sometimes it's an innoculation.

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

Hmmm ... It's not that straight forward.

I'm thinking about voluntary & involuntary vulnerability, if that makes any sense, and what happens when one shifts to the other.

Nothing ever is.

Yes it makes sense, i think the worst part of that situation is the 'shift'- at least when voluntarily vulnerable or unvoluntarily so, you know where you are (as such) and how to deal. But that shift itself is difficult- when was the line crossed? who did it? was it me? did i let someone else make that happen? utimately am i the one who should take responsibility of that change in my position? Then the initial feeling of the 'destination' state is again an unsettling one.

I don't know what happens when you shift- i imagine that the shift from voluntary to involuntary is more unsettling than the other way around. But i also think it depends on the circumstance.

Im not sure if im actually offering anything here or just rambling

 

[Huckleman2000]

Interesting. Is what you mean by the shift from voluntary to involuntary vulnerability something akin to a loss of one's autonomy? For example, children aren't capable of taking care of themselves, so they are 'involuntarily' vulnerable. Adults, on the other hand, can expose their raw unprocessed inner thoughts and feelings, so close to their core that if someone tramples on them it feels like a betrayal.

In that sense, I think of that type of relationship more like a therapist/patient. The 'patient' talks about very personal things that she knows are iimportant, but maybe isn't sure how or why they are important. Did something that happened with her parents lead her to view other relationships with fear or some other reflexive response? A person exploring their inner selves to such an extent is very vulnerable, emotionally, because the therapy is really getting close to why she acts or reacts a certain way - the processing of those thoughts can be distressing, as they can lead to realizing that she may not be quite the same person as she had always assumed. The therapist in such a situation holds, in a sense, the power of betrayal. They could call up the patient's friends or associates and reveal the patient's secrets, their fumbling as they come to terms with their feelings, and so on.

That's kind of a dispassionate way of looking at the issue, I know. I think, though, that issues of autonomy are at the root of feelings of vulnerability and betrayal. How much of the care of ourselves do we assign to another? How much is the other willing to accept? When the two don't balance, how does each one react to that imbalance? Does one person commit a betrayal as a way of running from responsibility, or as a means of exerting more control? As Rob points out, it's not good to totally shut out everyone, so the balancing act is part of 'healthy' living. Doesn't make it easier, though.

 

[impressive]

*HUGS* imp. A strong woman like you will get through this.

Thank you, Rob -- but you're making assumptions. I'm just pondering the subject. I am quite okay & not in the throes of some kinda meltdown.

 

[rgraham666]

Thank you, Rob -- but you're making assumptions. I'm just pondering the subject. I am quite okay & not in the throes of some kinda meltdown.

Oops.

So, save it for the time you need it.

 

[impressive]

Interesting. Is what you mean by the shift from voluntary to involuntary vulnerability something akin to a loss of one's autonomy? For example, children aren't capable of taking care of themselves, so they are 'involuntarily' vulnerable. Adults, on the other hand, can expose their raw unprocessed inner thoughts and feelings, so close to their core that if someone tramples on them it feels like a betrayal.

That's not exactly what I was thinking, but it's something else to ponder.

Instead, I was thinking about the desire (or a desire) to be vulnerable with someone & the safety associated with that voluntary vulnerability ... then, the sense of betrayal when/if it doesn't feel so safe anymore.

 

[Pure]

"betrayal"

it occurs to me that many of us have true stories--some posted--of betrayals (=being betrayed).

i wonder if anyone ever posts an account of betraying anyone?

my guess is that some other word or phrase is used, such as "I could never meet X's expectations, which were far too high."
"Hey, I'm human."
"We were going through a rocky period."

---
vulnerable

most of us give lots of thought to our own sensitivities. "i was very vulnerable at the time."

lest common: "S/he was very vulnerable at the time."

 

[lightsaver]

That's not exactly what I was thinking, but it's something else to ponder.

Instead, I was thinking about the desire (or a desire) to be vulnerable with someone & the safety associated with that voluntary vulnerability ... then, the sense of betrayal when/if it doesn't feel so safe anymore.

I've never associated safety with voluntary vulnerability..curious thing...And the definitions for these two words are the first time I've read them. Its never occurred to me to find the meanings of these two words, not due to lack of interest in words.. due to the fact that the meanings found me early on. Is that why you incl them?
Now I'm pondering...thank you, its safe to say this will distract me from my pending dental appt.

 

[impressive]

Now I'm pondering...thank you, its safe to say this will distract me from my pending dental appt.

Open wide. This won't hurt a bit.

 

[FluteMaster]

That's not exactly what I was thinking, but it's something else to ponder.

Instead, I was thinking about the desire (or a desire) to be vulnerable with someone & the safety associated with that voluntary vulnerability ... then, the sense of betrayal when/if it doesn't feel so safe anymore.

Mmmm. I keep thinking about this link, and I can't seem to place the Vulnerability alongside the Safety. In my mind, the vulnerabiliity is increased the greater one steps away from being safe, because one is no longer trusting one's own ability to control the situation, but another's ability.

It's almost as if they are two points on a continuum. Of course, if the Trust (the amount by which one feels able to move from S to V) is broken by the other - that is the Betrayal.

I suppose that Voluntary Vulnerability is when one feelks one has a choice in how far to place that trust, and feels able to withdraw it unilaterally. In this explanation I would assume that Involuntary Vulnerability is where one feels one has lost, or no longer wishes to control the extent that one places one's trust in another.

(Boy, this is hurting my brain )

I don't know if I am only re-hashing what you have already thought?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Imp, how much do I love you?

You just gave me an enormous boost in the plot I'm trying to build. Huge.

 

[lightsaver]

Open wide. This won't hurt a bit.

What did you just say? Sorry I can't read when my mouth's full.

 

[elsol]

I can't seem to push this theme from my thoughts this morning.

These definitions, in particular:

vul·ner·a·ble [VUHL-ner-uh-buhl] –adjective
1. capable of or susceptible to being wounded or hurt

be·tray [bi-TREY] -verb (used with object)
2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

Maybe your thoughts will help me settle my own.

Anyone?

I'm kind of not liking the third...'to disappoint the hopes or expectations of'... Why is it a 'betrayal' not to meet someone's hopes or expectations?

I don't think my kid growing up to be a janitor is a 'betrayal', but it would definitely 'disappoint' my hopes and expectations.

 

[CharleyH]

Vulnerability is a simple fact of life. We're all vulnerable. The only way to avoid being vulnerable is to draw completely away from the world.

Having withdrawn once I find it to be an unsatisfying and lonely existence.

Betrayal is someone else's actions. And you aren't responsible for someone else's actions. Betrayal hurts, a lot, yes. But it's very survivable, and a good learning experience.

*HUGS* imp. A strong woman like you will get through this.

Damn you! I keep thinking you've put me on ignore.

I agree and I do not, RG. I do not necessarily think people are vulnerable unless they choose to be, and I do not agree that not being vulnerable means drawing away from the world. Vulnerable means to put yourself in a position and therefore one should expect.

Betrayal happens and not to your liking, and hurts, yet betrayal does not necessarily go hand in hand with vulnerability.

Imp has given me two words, and that is what I am going on, here.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

Interesting info from Wiki.

Vulnerability is the susceptibility to physical or emotional injury or attack. It also means to have one's guard down, open to censure or criticism; assailable. Vulnerability refers to a person's state of being liable to succumb, as to persuasion or temptation

Betrayal, as a form of deception or dismissal of prior presumptions, is the breaking or violation of a presumptive social contract (trust, or confidence) that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals, between organizations or between individuals and organizations. Often betrayal is the act of supporting a rival group, or it is a complete break from previously decided upon or presumed norms by one party from the others.

 

[CharleyH]

Interesting info from Wiki.

Vulnerability is the susceptibility to physical or emotional injury or attack. It also means to have one's guard down, open to censure or criticism; assailable. Vulnerability refers to a person's state of being liable to succumb, as to persuasion or temptation

Betrayal, as a form of deception or dismissal of prior presumptions, is the breaking or violation of a presumptive social contract (trust, or confidence) that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship amongst individuals, between organizations or between individuals and organizations. Often betrayal is the act of supporting a rival group, or it is a complete break from previously decided upon or presumed norms by one party from the others.

Sorry for not posting sooner and also apologies for my bluntness ... Wikipedia?

 

[impressive]

I suppose that Voluntary Vulnerability is when one feelks one has a choice in how far to place that trust, and feels able to withdraw it unilaterally. In this explanation I would assume that Involuntary Vulnerability is where one feels one has lost, or no longer wishes to control the extent that one places one's trust in another.

Yes and no.

Trust is a component of voluntary vulnerability. But trust can be withdrawn. There is an aspect of vulnerability that, once given, is far more difficult to unilaterally withdraw by simply stating, "You can't hurt/betray me any more."

That's when it becomes involuntary ... when you don't WANT to be vulnerable to the hurt/betrayal any more.

I think we each crave (at least, I do) relationships in which we feel safe baring our bodies and our souls. What happens when that safety is just illusory?

This pondering is leading me in all sorts of directions today -- even to finding deeper meaning in my collection of decorative bird cages (a/k/a pretty prisons).

 

[Recidiva]

To expand thoughts on betrayal or expectation or calculated choices, when someone knows they're taking a chance, they're more suited for the outcome.

A gambler who puts too much money down thinking it's a sure thing, is a bit in denial and a bit stuck in hope and illusion, and not dealing with the odds.

You can be an emotional gambler, and still lose what you can afford to lose.

Betrayal always comes from giving someone something, trust or power and then having that trust or power used against you.

Which is why treason is always a worse crime than outright warfare.

 

[CharleyH]

There is an aspect of vulnerability that, once given, is far more difficult to unilaterally withdraw by simply stating, "You can't hurt/betray me any more."

That's when it becomes involuntary ... when you don't WANT to be vulnerable to the hurt/betrayal any more.

Yet and if you read your own words? You say that vulnerability IS something to be given, so therefore it can't be involuntary if you get hurt. Just a thought.