Voting Reform - Your Ideas Please

[TheHermit]

I've been reading with some interest all of the threads about voting fraud and frustrations. As a reader, I find ranking very useful. It is rare that a story with a 3 to low 4 does much for me. When I browse the TopLists or a category section, the rankings are VERY useful to me. When one of you has clearly worked hard, I like giving ya a 5 to say thanks.

I am a number cruncher, I understand the power of numbers. It is clear as glass why the 1-votes piss people off. Only a total asshole or control-freak would give even a half-decent story a 1. But guess what, this site has sections for Mind Control, Domination, and many extreme fetishs... you are going to get mental cases who can't help themselves... they'll votes lots of 1's because Gollum will always want his Ring back [LOTR]. So why give them so freakin' much power to destroy.

I've seen many, many well writen story with many votes that were high on a Top List, sudddenly drop like a rock. It is obvious that you writer's are being screwed when you have good stories.

I also see clearly that Laurel thinks everything is just peachy and another author who gets an E on everything she writes will always agree that everything is as good as it could possibly be. From what I've seen and read, the current anti-fraud system is complicated and doesn't work well.

I have some simple suggestions that could knock out most of this BS. but before I write any more, before I plant any ideas, I'd like to hear your ideas.

Since posting here might not be the politically smartest thing in the world, you can e-mail me any ideas, horror stories, dirt, or whatever at thehermit700@hotmail.com. Please don't PM, I don't check it.

By all means, post here if you like. Shortly, I'll summarize what I've heard via e-mail [using NO names] and share my considered opinion onhow you can put a lot of this nonsense behind you.

Thanks for reading this.

 

[Couture]

I think that you'll find that it really doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Coolville]

always nice to see some energy and initiative, but I fear you'd be wasting your time.

 

[Whispersecret]

I say, go for it. It certainly can't hurt to hash this out again. Who knows how many people tried to provide man with electric light before Edison finally did it? This guy could be our Edison!

Personally, the votes don't mean as much to me anymore, but it sure would be nice to be able to deprive the trolls of their twisted satisfaction!

 

[TheHermit]

Good Info Coming In

I have already heard from a couple folks. They have sent me copies of the emails that were sent to Laurel. As I suspected, dispite senting compelling documentation and useful suggestions, they were totally ignored.

If you care to post, I am hoping to get YOUR wish list, what you think should be done differently. Telling me nothing will change may be true, but it is not what is needed here. I SOON want to post a very short suggestion that will dramatically lessen the impact of asshole voting. If it incorporates as many wishes of the general population, all the better.

One person writing me wants to be able to use the voting so they can compete with themelves. "I'd like for my next story to score a little better than my last, but when it's obvious one or sickos totally distort the voting, I can't tell a damned thing. Because they [Literotica] won't show the vote breakdown, I can't tell how most of the readers are really voting."

This thread is intended for people that want reform and/or may have a short specific suggestion; or have been working behind the scenes and are willing to share their information via confidential email.

 

[Couture]

Personally, I like the idea of only registered users being able to vote. But, I rarely even look at the votes anymore. Maybe this would change if they were more reliable.

 

[KillerMuffin]

If you had to read 100 porn stories a night in addition to a full time job, I wonder how much time you would have to check the mail.



If you've got an idea to fix the voting problems that won't discourage people from voting, please, have at it. I would love to hear and Laurel and Manu would love it even more, no doubt.

Bear in mind that this site gets 400,000 to 500,000 unique hits a day. There are 100,000 registrations in the database, many of which are multiple registrations per user because the Dbase is linked to the BB and we do so like to troll each other.

One fifth of the public allowed to vote? Make voting too difficult and people won't do it.

I've got stuff up at another site. Almost 5000 views on one story. 3 votes. You have to register to vote. Quality votes, true, because I know they came from someone who went to the trouble of registering and there's a "comments" field they can carry out and all the 3 voters left comments. I should note that after a year there and about 10 things posted, I've gotten no feedback beyond the comments field and a good half of what's posted has no votes whatsoever.

I like the idea of allowing the author to see the vote spread.

 

[wildsweetone]

Actually Hermit, you sound knowledgeable and caring enough to achieve your goal. Good luck dear.

You'd like suggestions for changes? Okay here's a couple (though if you've been watching the voting threads you'll have a fair idea of my thoughts already).

i) separate the reader and author votes.

ii) scale the voting system in a more basic fashion. 3 points.

iii) clearly advise authors how to figure out the .3 in 2.3 (some of us are pretty thick with numbers eh).

iv) by splitting up the submission page into more choosable keywords, that will ease some of the dump votes as forewarned is forearmed.

yes, i also like the idea of comparing my own votes.

I've answered on here publically because as far as I'm concerned the voting system as it stands has too many variables for me to be able to find them of any use.

Partly this problem is caused by writing to so many different audiences - which would easily be sorted by including the huge tickable keyword page. If a reader is able to see clearly what the story includes it's a very simple matter to then go read it or to find something more suitable.

I refer you to the thread begun in the last week or so.
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99519&pagenumber=2

thumbs up to the author vote spread idea, i like that too.

 

[TheHermit]

Dear Wildsweetone,

Could you please explain/expand on iv)? Afraid I don't understand about the keywords. Could you provide an example of the improvement you think might help. Oops, guess I need to read the thread you gave me...

Thank you all for you opinions. All ideas are worthwhile. Sometimes an even unworkable idea can still inspire a good doable one.

 

[wildsweetone]

did you understand the other thread Hermit?

 

[Laurel]

This is a topic that comes up every so often, and it's always interesting for me to see any new ideas. If you have suggestions, feel free to post them here. The original post on this thread reads more like an angry tirade than a constructive suggestion on how to help the authors of this site. The whole "email me, don't post it publicly" thing gives me a slight spam vibe as well.

If you really want to help, post your comments or suggestions here on a public forum where they can be addressed.

There is no simple solution to this issue. Some of you may be aware that certain cause-based web communities have organized groups of voters who attack sites like Amazon, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, and others, grossly skewing certain polls whichever way they want them to go.

None of these high profile sites have been able to find a solution to this problem. If AOL's & MSN's billions of dollars can't make a foolproof system, then the idea that we can is wishful thinking. I am ALWAYS looking for ways to improve what we currently have, but I am also a realist.

The suggestion of adding a breakdown of each vote is a good suggestion. However, that is not a fraud prevention measure - that is a feature request.

Again, I encourage anyone who has suggestions to post them on this thread, and we will definitely consider all of them.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Whispersecret]

I'd like to see a feature where, in order to cast a one vote, the person has to give feedback of one kind or another. Perhaps written feedback with an email address. Or maybe a checklist. (I think I saw that idea on some other thread...) I voted a one because:

...it didn't get me off.
...I'm not into scat, incest, etc.
...of the poor grammar, spelling, and/or punctuation.
...of poor characterization
...I don't like you.
...the plot was stupid, invisible, contrived.
...I prefer stories with more to them than just sex.
...I prefer stories that focus just on the sex.
...Other

And so on.

If in order to vote one a person MUST offer feedback and an email address, it's just one more hoop for them to jump through if they're a troll bent on mayhem.

 

[christo]

I don't think I've seen many suggestions that would really help curb voter fraud. Changing the scale from 1-5 to 1-10 (or 1-3) doesn't help. Allowing only registered members to vote would cut vote totals by about 95%. Laurel has better things to do (cat rescue, empire-building) than divine the intent of every vote cast.

I don't think there are many stories out there that truly deserve a 1. Stories that bad probably wouldn't get posted in the first place. But you have to have a bottom rung, it doesn't matter if it's 1 or 3 or 42.

If I could make one change, I would make it so only published writers on Literotica could cast a "1" vote. All other readers could only go as low as 3. Even if they cast a 1, the system would count it as 3. Only those poor souls who know the pain of seeing a beloved story nosedive after a handful of unos should be entrusted with such a terrible weapon.

 

[TheHermit]

Laurel, I'll gladly confess to some serious frustration when I made the original post. I have seen wild swings in stories that I enjoyed and knew were nicely crafted. In a few case I wrote to the author's to ask about what I was seeing. As a result, I've seen copies of good suggestions that were sent to you. People took a lot of time to make thoughtful, reasonable suggestions. They never even got any a 'thanks for writing'.

I understand that there are only so many hours in the day, and your time is precious. But whose time isn't? People that have spent days creating something nice for this site probably find they don't have enough hours in the day either. I have also seen that you spend a great deal of time fighting negative voting, but… The current system has significant loopholes, I have seen documentation that proves it to me at least. I have no intention of being disrespectful, but a dog chasing it's tail constantly will never get anywhere. If something is broke, a lot of time gets wasted until it's fixed. I could have posted my suggestions originally, but I didn't want to steer people's thinking in a specific direction.

I have heard from people who became the targets of increased attacks when they posted concerns or suggestions. Some people are concerned, but are reluctant to rock the boat in public. Hence the invitation to use my e-mail address for feedback anyone would rather not share in this forum. I have no stories to attack, and I have I've dealt with similar problems. That is why I feel that something positive can be done with minimal effort/cost.

I have read through many, many threads using the search engine. I have only seen a few very polite comments from you and they basically say the same thing… not much more we can do. I have collected some of the ideas I've seen in threads. I am inviting anyone else to list his or her ideas. Come the end of the week, I post a concise list of what I feel are practical suggestions to minimize the impact of negative voting; an amalgam of the ideas I've seen posted in this and other threads, along with those e-mailed to me. There are good ideas scattered all over the threads, I'm sure I've missed some of them so My goal is to consolidate the widely scattered suggestions.

At that point it will be up to you all to keep doing what you're doing, or trying something a little different. I'll go back to my cave and never bother y'all again.

 

[Coolville]

much ado about nothing

with all due respect to all those who endevour to change the voting system for the better, I dare say that the writing is the thing.

all this time and effort pondering over internet votes seems like a fruitless displacement activity.

A writer shouldn't be worried about such trivial matters.
A writer should write.
A writer should get a rush from a positive feedback and crash down to earth from a negative one, only to rise up again and write the next story.

I don't know the people who run Literotica, but I know how time-consuming running a website is so I have only respect for their efforts.

Don't like the voting system, turn it off.

I shall live bad if I do not write and I shall write bad if I do not live. Francoise Sagan

I hear and I forget; I see and I remember; I write and I understand.
Chinese proverb

 

[The Story Teller]

I like Whispersecrets idea where anyone who wants to vote a 1 would have to give feedback with their email address or the vote would not count. I feel that a serious voter who really did not like the story would not have a problem giving feedback to back up their point of view. But that a person who was only trying to mess with the votes would be hesitant to bomb the story since the author would then have their email address.


Just my opinion.

 

[ronde]

I've been hit by the ratings killers on most of my submissions and it bothered me for a while. After reading through most of the voting threads here, including the one I started, I realized that these people are probably pretty unbiased, because almost all the top authors have complained of the same unfair voting at some time or another.

The arguement here is that our literary creations start life with a perfect 5.00 score, and then drop like a rock as soon as the hounds pick up the scent trail of the coveted "E" or "H", or merely just a high ranking. If we somehow eliminate the 1 votes, our scores will be much higher.

We all compete in the 4.6 or higher range to stay on the first page of the top lists. I too, crunch numbers and spout statistical data as a vocation, and the numbers say if we eliminate the 1 votes, we'll just be competing in the next decimal place for the same relative ranking.

In other words, if it happens to everybody, it's still a fair system in the respect that no author has more opportunity for high scores then any other. Let immaturity have it's one second of self-glorification in the power of it's 1 vote, and let the other readers have the opportunity to reward their favorites as they wish.

I tend to watch the number of voters more than the score, and the only change that I might like to see is to consider both the number of votes as well as the score. In my analytical view of the world, a 4.5 with 500 votes should count higher than a 5.0 with 15. It's difficult to please 500 readers enough to get them to vote at all, let alone to please them enough to vote high. This would also somewhat alleviate the pain of the 1 votes. If an author can attract many voters, the less the impact of a 1.

 

[Whispersecret]

I have a poor head for math. Thank goodness there are people out there who GET numbers.

Ronde's post makes sense.

I really only care about frustrating the shitheads. But it probably isn't going to happen. Shitheads can find loopholes if they try hard enough, I suppose.

 

[TheHermit]

Way to go folks!!

Thank you, Thank You, Thank You. The last few comments are bringing out a wrinkle I haven't seen anywhere else. There have been many threads on voting, but one problem I feel is the good ideas are so spread out that no one sees a 'big picture'.

As stated earlier, I plan to pull together ideas I've read along with my own thoughts into a hopefully short paper on the subject.

I hope a few more poeple will blue sky here... by that I mean this: In business I've seen a group of people given a flipchart and told to put up their ideas. No one is allowed to critique the ideas, and no matter how crazy the idea is... write down what you're thinking. This can work incredibly well because when people don't have to defend their ideas. all their energy goes into being creative. Even silly ideas that make the group ggiggle often inspire a truly wonderful thought.

Wildsweetone, I haven't gone thru the thread yet, but I will. Thunderstorms have kept me off the net a lot the past couple days. Bless you for making an effort.

Ronde, kept the $10. Laurel's was an exceptional, moving piece. And I don't throw bouquets.

 

[its Leslie]

Simple is best

Here in Canada a vote is mark an X in one of four spaces anonymously. But you don't get to mark that anonymous X until you are on a list that is verifiable period.

In the US the vote is a mangled horror. They can't just ask you to mark an X in a small selection, no they have to ask you to vote for this and vote for that. Tooooooo complicated and to many options, it's no wonder the world has been laughing at how Bush was "elected", yeah right elected my butt.

Voting for a story needs to be simple.

Yes you "Liked" it, no you "Disliked" it.
Five "Liked" it and one "Disliked" it is far easier to handle.

A vote of 4.6 with 7 votes and 3000 views, tells me exactly nothing (those numbers were pulled out of thin air by the way, so don't try to get fussy on my example).

I would use votes if I was only a survey of "Liked" or "Disliked".

A story that gets say 30 "Likes" should rate higher than a story with just 25.
Maybe my notion is tooooo simple, maybe this will be the notion that works.

An "H" would then only need a set number of "Likes" (which would be calculated after the "Dislikes were subtracted).

And if the site has even the most modest means of isolating people that try to multiple vote it would keep all but the most anal from sending more than one "Dislike".
Not to mention their "Dislike" will have a great deal less weight on a statistical model, than a single "1" vote (because it makes a "5" suddenly vanish)

Is any of this making any sense?

 

[Coolville]

a gentle tongue in cheek ribbing...

leslie has a point. why not let the citizens of "functional" democracies work out a voting system.
Canadians, European and Australzealanders, for example.
Otherwise we'll end up with even more pregnant chads, et al.

 

[its Leslie]

Just to be clear on a matter of record though.

In the last vote in Canada and in the last vote in the US.

By numbers a smaller percentage of Canadians actually voted as compared with the US. We are APATHETIC!!

The trouble in the US was they "threw out" enough votes that would exceed the total population of Canada.
Not to mention having "my" vote casually discarded would PISS ME OFF.

If the US can hold elections that allow them to discard votes equalling the population of some countries, they clearly don't have the right to be going around "monitoring" election practices world wide eh. That's letting the inept show the untrustworthy how to "fairly" elect someone.

The Canadian vote only illustrated how little anyone gave a shit that Cretien was elected yet again. But at least the vote was handled effectively.

 

[TheHermit]

Leslie, Liked or Didn't makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you for sharing your idea!!

 

[karmadog]

Most of the posts here are about the dreaded, undeserved "1" vote, but fail to address the coveted, unearned "5" vote. The truth is that there are probably writers who get their friends to come and vote them "5"'s no matter what the story is worth.

I don't put much stock in votes in any case, but here's my suggestion. Drop the highest 10% and the lowest 10% of the votes. Of course, a story is far more likely to get a deserved five than a deserved one, because who reads an awful story? But there it is. If it's really good, it'll keep picking up fives and only one in ten will be dropped anyhow. Along with some 1's, 2's, or 3's.

 

[its Leslie]

I still say a friend voting "Liked" is more useful than a friend voting a "5" even if the friend is voting in a delibrately biased way.

Several biased "Liked" votes and several biased "Disliked votes have no real impact.

If you can get 5 people to say they like it and are biased towards you and 5 people that are merely mean and biased and vote a "Dislike" well they cancell each other out completely.

If you get 20 votes and 3 are Dislikes, that means you either have one outstanding fan club, or your story is acceptable.
If you get 20 votes and only 3 are Likes, well it IS possible the story was flat in some way.

If your stories just never seem to get more than 20 votes, the real truth is perhaps the stories ares just not landmark potential. But that happens.

Just the other day a friend in a rather "authouratative voice" declared that Terry Brooks was a lousy writer.
For those that don't know that name (hey it's possible I guess), Terry Brooks is one of the biggest selling authors in his genre (first big novel was the Sword of Shanara).

Sometimes a writers opinion, even if that person DOES think of themselves as a "great" writer, isn't worth much, if they attempt to claim to be better than someone that doesn't have to "claim" to be great (true greatness is always self evident to anyone with brains).

That's why the voting here could be more fun if it was more simple and more useful, but in the end, I haven't seen any Terry Brooks in here. None of our votes have any real value in the most brutal sense of the word. They are just pats on the back by fellow amatuers for amatuers.
The jerks that vote hostile are not accomplishing much by ruining a voting process that is really nothing more than what it is.