voting (again- sigh)

[coaster12345]

i try to be pretty resilient about voting, recognizing as
others here have said before me, that we are a community
of far ranging tastes, educational level, age, and experience,,
and that what appeals to one may be abhorrent to someone
else. but blatant, purposeless maliciousness is another matter.

back in the beginning of august, i posted a two-part story
called "make me die a little." as the days and weeks went by,
i watched part 2 climb steadily from 4.48 all the way to 4.74,
where it was yesterday--- the #2 story in the "loving wives"
category.

i didn't think much of the vote at the start, but as it rose i found
myself growing more and more proud of this offering. surely
others have known the feeling: this was my baby! i'd caught
something that worked for others too. the effort i'd expended
was appreciated!

this morning, less than 24 hours later, "make me die a little2"
had fallen to #107--- on the strength of just three votes. 61
voters had made it #2 in "loving wives". now, it has 64 votes.
in less than a day and with just three votes, it toppled 105
places.

now, c'mon, folks. something's not quite right. i'll say again that
honest voting is strictly a matter of taste, experience, etc., and
not something that one should fret over. but voter vandalism is
another matter. it's enormously discouraging to discover that the
effort one puts into making a story both erotic and literate can
be snuffed by some anonymous night person with a key into the
system.

i'm not alone in this. octavian suffered a similar slashing
of his fine story "a modern love story." to its credit, literotica found
the culprit and apparently erased the "one" votes which, by no
stretch of the imagination could anyone but a demented, illiterate
--- or malicious---misanthrope have cast. i hope that laurel and
manu will continue their vigilance here because the alternative will
only be to see this fine site deteriorate, the way eroticstories.com
has, into an adolescent wankatorium.

there'll always be a place on the web for serious, literate writers of
erotica. i would hope it will continue to be here.

coaster12345

 

[gauchecritic]

Well I don't keep that close an eye on my story scores, although I do agree it is a nice feeling when you receive good scores for your efforts, but having read this I can see that I may have been 'shot down' by a flyby low score to below the 4 mark. I did guess that that was probably the cause but didn't realise that it was a deliberate assassination.

 

[ladyphoenix]

voting

Yes, it can happen...but in the final analysis, do we write for votes, or for the art of writing? hmm?

 

[coaster12345]

voting and writing

save your carrot. i answered your question.

coaster12345

 

[Wildfire427]

Voting and Writing

Now see what you have done ladyphoenix. You've made us think and that's not what we want to do, we want to rant. Okay, I'll try to rant logically then.

I write 1) because I enjoy writing and 2) because hopefully others will enjoy my work too. #1 is not hard to accomplish. I could not begin to tell you how many thousands of words I have typed only to delete the whole thing and start over because I didn't like it.

On the other hand, we only get two indications of what the reader likes, that would be feedback and votes. I have one story that as of now (yes I am a type A personality that tracks my stories votes and am proud of it) has close to 40,000 reads. That only tells me that 40,000 people opened the story, not how many got past the first paragraph. This same story has 193 votes. On the feedback side, I have only gotten 17 feedbacks.

I appreciate every single feedback I get, but the bottom line is the only indication I have that the readers like my stories are in the votes. It's what lets me know to continue or change. I have yet to get a negative feedback, but have still watched a high score mysteriously drop over night. Does that mean the story took a nose dive or is there something else going on. I don't know, but I do care. I care that my writing may not be as good as I think, and I care if there is tampering involved.

P.S. Do you vote on your own work?

 

[coaster12345]

voting

"P.S. Do you vote on your own work?"

yes. when i vote for it. i judge it by my own standards,
which, after alifetime of writing and reviewing books, i
consider objectively to be about as good as anyone's.
but i am much harsher on my own work than i am on
others. and if it isn't worth a "four" or "five," i simply won't
post it--- any more than i would send a manuscript out to
an editor that i thought was less than the best i could do
with the subject.

i have never given a "one", and have rarely given a
"four" or "five" without an explanatory note to the author.
i happen to think we're all in the same mix, trying to put
feelings into words. some of us --- older, perhaps, better
educated, more traveled and experienced, more committed
to good writing--- strive harder than others. that's no
knock on those who don't. it's just a matter of relative
goals.

these authors, whose work reflect earnest literary effort,
are the only ones i will vote on. i know that sounds stuffy,
but c'mon now! we're a community of different tastes and
different levels, and it works both ways: recognizing a
young, inexperienced writer and voting him/her down
would be uselessly destructive. i might drop a note
suggesting this or that, but i'll resist entanglement, and
see no reason to vote on a story that wasn't targeted to
me, at what i can only call "my level."

i realize that this doesn't answer all the questions, and if
you'd like to pursue it privately, please do. i'm open. cheers,

coaster 12345

 

[margo_x_x]

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: The existence of a ‘one’ in this voting system is more at fault than the obnoxious people who use it. It’s a weapon that can be used to cut down even the best of stories, and if you leave a gun lying around, someone will pick it up.

There are only three legitimate votes you can give a story, excellent, average, and bad. The reality of human nature dictates that ‘five’ will be used for excellence, and ‘four’ for mediocrity. If one of your stories gets all ‘fours,’ you’ll never see that pretty ‘H,’ never find yourself on any list.

Why do we have three options for ‘bad?’ A ‘three’ would make it clear that the reader hated the story, it would cancel a five, and a preponderance of them would guarantee that your story never intercepted any limelight. A ‘two’ would do all that and more. It not only says that the story was bad, it says that the voter actively dislikes you. Why are we giving disproportionate power to someone with an ax to grind?

That leaves the ‘one.’ The gun. The most powerful vote at Literotica. If a masterpiece arrives at ten votes with a perfect score of 5.00, a single ‘one’ will drive it down to 4.64. Now that’s power. His vote has four times to power of anyone else.

What kind of person would cast votes just to be malicious? It doesn’t matter. This is a case where it’s the fault of the person who leaves the gun lying around, not the kid that picks it up and shoots it.

_____________________

Need to feel the power of casting a ‘one?’ Here’s a poem that deserves it. Knock your lights out.


http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=57305

 

[margo_x_x]

This is so deliciously funny that I’m wiping tears out of my eyes. My ‘poem,’ and I use the term loosely, was sitting firmly at 2.something when I invited one and all to dump all their “1” votes on it, and get that nasty urge out of their systems.

The point I made about a ‘1’-vote having disproportionate power, works in reverse at the bottom of the barrel. Two of you have apparently decided to mock the scoring system by giving my turd limerick a five. By doing so, you have negated eight (8) ‘1’-votes.

Now THAT’S poetry!

Thanks, guys. Now when I see those absurd scoring gyrations, I’ll think of you two and laugh it off.

 

[tonytony3]

I agree those 1 votes are a pita. My most recent story (Afterglow) was cruisng along at 4.69 (40 some votes), when someone 'blessed' it with a 1, pushing it to 4.62. I think, if I was designing the voting/rating system, I'd use something other than average scores. Medians might be better. It would take the 'gun' out of some people's hands.

On the other hand, it's worth remembering these are stories posted for fun and feedback, and I'll be damned if I'll let some one's one vote make me less happy. Why should I give them that power?

TT3

 

[Jigs]

I have been ranting on this board, practically foaming at the mouth, about the '1' terrorists for longer than I can remember. I have heard all the answers a dozen times over, and I'm not satisfied with any of them.

"It is the art that matters." Damn it! I'm not an artist. I write dirty stories.

"I should write for my own enjoyment not for approval." Well, I started out that way, but if that were still true, I wouldn't be now posting them to the Internet."

"Different strokes for different folks. It is unreasonable to expect to please everyone." True enough, but I'm convinced that almost all of the '1' voters to stories that otherwise received high marks are simply vandals. These people are not voting a preference, they think it's cute to shoot down a good story. They seldom attack anything that isn't on the top lists or marked with that kiss of death, the 'H'.

"There are as many undeserved '5s' given as there are '1s'." Probably true, but the average of a five with a one is a three, and a three average will send a good story crashing into oblivion, buried under a thousand other stories, where it will never be heard from again.

I don't know about everybody else but I put a lot of hours into my stories, so let me tell the unvarnished truth about them. However sophisticated and grown up I may try to be about the voting, I am bitterly disappointed by averages below 4.3. Perhaps I'm just spoiled. Perhaps I simply have too much ego. I will except either answer, but it is the way I am and I can't help it. Age may have stolen my legs and agility, but I will always be that old competitive jock out to win the God damned game.

The unfortunate thing is that at least part of the problem, both the over-vote and the under-vote, could be so easily solved. It would simply require that a percentage of the both high and low votes be discarded, and the average taken from the middle. That doesn't guarantee an honest count as the recent Olympic ice skating scandal illustrates, but it would be a damn good start.

Finally, I want to say to Margo, whoever she is, you are a gal after my own heart. That "poetry" stunt was such a classic. Right on! You have proved once again that injustice is universal. Not only does injustice not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, sex, or sexual preference, it does not discriminate between what is good and what is bad either.

 

[Pookie]

I am a very new author having written just two stories so far. I was "tutored" by another author that I admire. His first warning to me was to not get too hung up on scores because it is so easy for someone to low ball your story causing a rating to come crashing down.

So far, I have just focused on the feedback I get from readers. I much prefer reading feedback that describes how I did something right (or wrong) than seeing another 4 or 5 get posted as a score.

I will admit that I hope my stories get a high score. But I won't post a story that I don't feel is ready to be posted either. I write for my enjoyment. If others get enjoyment as well, then thats all the better. But it is a shame to see how scores can fall dramatically because of people that just want to low ball you.

I had one reader give me a low score just because I have not posted my complete story yet (just a few chapters). Otherwise the reader said he would have given me a high score. Go figure. I had another reader said he gave me a low score because of all the "incest junk" in my story. Well the story is clearly labeled in the incest category ... duh . Thats why I don't worry too much about the score. The feedback I get is much more gratifying to me even if it is critical of what I have written.

"You can't please everyone" is something I learned quickly.

 

[Wyatt]

I'm tempted to turn off the scoring on my stories.Has anyone else done this? My last nonconsent was cruising at 4.61 quite merrily when it suffered a few 1s in a row... Someone gave me anon feedback stating it was nonconsent...yup! That's why it was in nonconsent....I give up!

Phew!....got that out of my system...I won't need to post exactly the same sentiments for at least another month

 

[gauchecritic]

For what it's worth

When I first started reading stories on the site I picked categories I liked, occasionally when the 'lead line' next to a story of any kind grabs my attention I will read those too, after a few months I tried my luck with some of my own work (2 so far) and wanted very much to get a red H beside my stories, never even made the top 100.

However, having read a few of the stories with a red H, and not actually enjoying a single one of them, I came to the conclusion that the marking system is necessarily biased because only a small percentage of people will bother to vote and a very small percentage of those will vote negatively for reasons other than subject matter or style.

The reason I submit work to the site is to give enjoyment, when praise is also given in feedback that is a very pleasant side effect, as for the votes, what do you think this is? A democracy?

 

[ladyphoenix]

THE BIG RED H and THE GREEN E

YEAH, GAUCHE!
Gotta agree with you on the H thing.

I want to know WHO PICKS THE EDITOR'S PICKS? WHO GIVE THE H??????

I think there should be some system of checks and balances. Are ALL the stories so honored with colored letters judged by the same person? If they are judged by more than one person, do BOTH people (or ALL if it is a group) have to agree it deserves it? I cannot tell you how many stories I've read that I wouldn't give a 3 to that are marked as an Editor's Choice. Who the hell was that editor??

I'd love to see all the editors have to send their picks for H and E to one small, fair group of individuals to be rated. Maybe even have an "Editor's Picks" section, with pieces that are erotic AND literate. That would be lovely. I mean, the reality is, people don't all read here for a good story. Sometimes they just want the dirty words to have some good masturbatory material, and if they cum REALLY hard, they give it a five. I call it the "SPLASH FACTOR" (yeah, I know, I'm thinking males here, but I thought it was funny )

Any thoughts?

 

[Whispersecret]

I have a few stories with Hs and I don't think they've been 1ed to death. I can't be entirely sure because I don't track the scores, but the ones that have Hs pretty much still have them.

Es are given by the webmistress, I believe. It's completely subjective.

Hs are based on voting totals. Weird Harold would know the score required for that.

 

[tonytony3]

Your post gets an H if there are more than 9 votes, and the average vote is 4.5 or higher.

 

[Maskman]

I'll agree that feedback is more important than votes, yet I fully understand the desire to see the 'vote' score rise higher. So far, the only only 'annonymous' feeds-back I've recieved have had contact info attached. Oddly enough, they were positive, too... Go figure!

My first submission has a little over 2400 views, and less than 40 votes. That means that no matter how high, or how low the votes take my story, there's a thundering herd o' folk out there that simply don't care enough to vote one way or another, and I should just get over myself.

 

[Pookie]

Like I mentioned before, I don't put alot into what the score is.

How much different is a 4.49 from a 4.5? A 4.5 will get an "H" by your story but does it really mean that the story is any better or worse? I watched the score on one of my posts go from a 5 to a 4.3 to finally a 4.64 over a two day period. I had 36 votes out of approximately 3800 views. What did the other 3764 people think? The scores can fluctuate quite a bit with so few votes.

One of my posts had an "H" off and on yesterday. Did that mean it became a worse then better then worse story as the day went on? When I go online to check out my stories, the first thing I go to is my email because the feeback is what is important to me. Of course I would be concerned if my score dropped several points. But I am not going to let a small drop in a score bother me because it really does not tell me anything. I have seen posts with an "H" that I did not really enjoy reading. Personal preferences come into play with alot of this.

Remember, small numbers of votes makes scores very suspect. For example, I remember taking a test in school that only had three questions on it. If I screwed up one question, I would have made a 67. I would make a "F" on the test by missing just one question. Would that mean that I am an "F" student? Hardly.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Re: voting

"P.S. Do you vote on your own work?"

yes. when i vote for it. i judge it by my own standards,
which, after alifetime of writing and reviewing books, i
consider objectively to be about as good as anyone's.
but i am much harsher on my own work than i am on
others. and if it isn't worth a "four" or "five," i simply won't
post it--- any more than i would send a manuscript out to
an editor that i thought was less than the best i could do
with the subject.

i have never given a "one", and have rarely given a
"four" or "five" without an explanatory note to the author.
i happen to think we're all in the same mix, trying to put
feelings into words. some of us --- older, perhaps, better
educated, more traveled and experienced, more committed
to good writing--- strive harder than others. that's no
knock on those who don't. it's just a matter of relative
goals.

these authors, whose work reflect earnest literary effort,
are the only ones i will vote on. i know that sounds stuffy,
but c'mon now! we're a community of different tastes and
different levels, and it works both ways: recognizing a
young, inexperienced writer and voting him/her down
would be uselessly destructive. i might drop a note
suggesting this or that, but i'll resist entanglement, and
see no reason to vote on a story that wasn't targeted to
me, at what i can only call "my level."

i realize that this doesn't answer all the questions, and if
you'd like to pursue it privately, please do. i'm open. cheers,

coaster 12345

I find this entire post very fascinating and very indicitive of how distant we can be from our readers.

Voting is a reader-given thing. Readers give votes based on their own criteria--and it can be mystifying. Why does Tawny T consistently do better than Dixon Carter Lee when DCL is the better writer? Answer this question and you'll see why your stories don't do as well as some that you consider more poorly written.

You see, the average voter does not apply "writing" criteria toward a 5 vote. Some do, some are writing-interested writers or have worked with writing and that's what they judge by. Of the 500,000 unique hits a day I would guess that writing-interested writers and writer-friendly people comprise maybe about 500 of those and that would be a stretch.

Analyze your audience. 1. What brought you to Literotica in the first place? Your interest in writing or your interest in reading something to get off to? 2. Of all of the thousands of writers that post here at Literotica, how many of them do you see asking for feedback to improve their writing (either here or in stories or profile)? 3. Judging by the advertising, the writing quality of the average story with more than 500 votes on the top lists, and by the average story written, what is more important to the readers? Writing quality or sex?

In every pornographic story there is a tension between pornography and writing quality. The more pornographic you get, the more writing quality suffers. Why? Pornography is necessarily expository. Exposition is only fabulous in non-fiction. The successful stories have discovered the perfect balance between the two. The ones that appeal to the readers the most. They get an enjoyable sexual experience with the porno (not erotica) and they get an enjoyable reading experience with the writing.

Your criteria, while the mainstream in nearly every other part of the writing world, will be in the vast minority here. People judge stories with their genitalia first, their love of good writing second. Why? You can get off to a hack porno story and not get off to a well written erotic one. If you would give it a 4 or a 5 for writing quality, you should also check to see if you could cum to it.

Yes, there is voter fraud. No one disputes that. I just don't think it's nearly in as much abundance as people seem to think. I believe the main problem isn't with the 1-bandit. I think it lies with not catering to your audience. Quite frankly, we can write for ourselves and write what makes us happiest all we want, but that's not going to impress the reader who thinks it was okay, but I didn't cum, here's a 3. It was okay, but it wasn't hot, here's a 2. I came here to get off, you wasted my time, here's a 1. S/he doesn't care why you write. S/he only cares about what s/he reads.

 

[Pookie]

Thats an excellent point that I tend to forget myself. Who is our audience? Are you trying to sell bagels to people that like do-nuts? I have to remember my audience. My "tutor" while editing some of my first writings used to get on me alot because I would forget that I was writing a "sex" story. He would tell me that what I was writing was fine but it did not give him a hardon. I thought at first when he was telling me this over and over that he was just poking fun at me. Finally he got the point across to me. Write something that stimulates and arouses the reader and you will more than likely leave them wanting to read another story by you.

In one of my feedback letters I got yesterday, this guy told me I had an excellent story because, and I quote "shot 6 great big squirts of cum". My first reaction was to think 'what an intelligent comment'. Then I realized he paid me a tremendous compliment because my "sex" story was good enough to get him off. What more can a "sex" story writer ask for?

Maybe we need a "squirt" scale???

 

[gauchecritic]

The 'squirt scale'

Unfortunately the scale mentioned would apply only to a few groups ie, men, a small percentage of women and possibly those into urilagnia.

Perhaps there should be a damp scale for those of the readership not penically endowed. This could be verified by a simple usb device which would be activated by the arousal quotient of the story being read.

Damn I've just buggered up my patent.

 

[tonytony3]

I don't think qood writing quality and erotica or porn are mutually exclusive.

How often are you reading a story with a great premise, only to have your eyes come to a skidding halt because a sentence is poorly constructed, not quite understandable? Or some pet peeve misusage (it's v its, there v their or whatever) grabs you?

I don't send my stories to editors, they'd be better if I did, but damn it, I want reasonable quality to go out over my pen name.

Don't you?

You'll find errors in the stories I've posted (may I suggest the last one, Afterglow (http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=60368) but I hope none are bad enough to distract from the story. Feedback -- I love feedback -- suggests the story themes for the most part satisfy both the language and erotic needs of the readers. Why shouldn't they?

Someone did make a good suggestion that I will follow. Whatever story I post next will have voting turned off. That'll frustrate the "1" givers -- I hope (although I will admit some of the stories I've posted deserve some of those binary votes).

Neat thread, isn't it?

TT3

 

[Guest]

LOL..........

Have to say I've been there.......experienced that myself. Always interesting to see when one of my stories first posts. There are those who will of course vote (and who follow my writing) and give honest feedback to whatever I've written. I've never made the claim to be a really good writer. But I believe I'm not a bad story teller, as those who have read and enjoyed my stories have told me.

Ya Ya Dildohood - Chapter 3 made it all the way to 4.80 with 58 votes. Three votes later........and it's down to 4.71, so yes....it's interesting that the "competition" deems it a threat maybe towards reaching the top spots, so any story that appears there for any length of time, inevitably is attacked and voted down. I've come to expect it, and am no longer surprised by it, but yes, it is disapointing nevertheless when the feedback given tends to support the way the stories being received as opposed to any negative feedback that would support such a sudden and downward fall.

I too am in support of a three tier voting system only. 2-3-4 perhaps, no 1's and no 5's. At least the ratings would be tighter and maybe more indicative of a popular or well written story.

And though the "votes" tend to support which stories vie for best story categories of the year that are selected and recognized, it is still rewarding to receive the continued feedback, and the number of relationships that I've made from those.

All I can say is hang in there. Over time one can only hope the story will prove itself out. Once the "wave" of (1) voters have done their worst....you hope the true nature of the story and how it really should be graded will eventually average out.

I remain,

 

[Singularity]

Is the Big Bad BDSM Troll Gone For Good?

I have been following the posts on voting for several months, and commented on voting much earlier.

Lately, I have been mildly encouraged in that the person(s) who continually savaged the BDSM category appears to be gone. Previously, there wasn't a single story that every survived above 4.5 for more than a week before it got hammered down.

Today, I counted 50 stories that were above 4.5 in the category. Now, this pales in comparsion to the overall Lit site top rated stories (only 1 BDSM story makes it into the 7 pages of Toplist across all the categories).

Within the BDSM category, I think I am now getting pretty fair and consistent votes (the stories I am most proud of being higher and the lesser ones lower), though some of the early-days postings that got slammed by the '1-monster' have never fully recovered.

What I find most interesting is the differences between the categories. After allowing for popularity (BDSM is never going to out-poll incest here, though per my personal taste I don't understand why), the scoring differences between the categories intrigues me.

Are incest fans easy graders and D/s folks tougher on their peers (who knows, maybe there is something psychological buried in here somewhere)?

Also, the comment earlier about voting on one's own work? How many people do that? I will confess I did it once, to see if it was possible (it is), but not since.

Do you vote on your own stories?

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: Is the Big Bad BDSM Troll Gone For Good?

Are incest fans easy graders and D/s folks tougher on their peers (who knows, maybe there is something psychological buried in here somewhere)?

Do you vote on your own stories?

Here's my theory:

Part of the discrepancy may be that the great majority of people who write incest stories don't actually practice incest. On the other hand, in the BDSM category, there are some writers who actually practice that lifestyle and some who do not.

Those non-BDSMers often don't realize that the BDSM lifestyle is complex and revolves much more around control and submission than it does around giving and receiving pain. Therefore, many stories end up in the BDSM category because the non-BDSM author wrote a story that includes black leather and spanking.

Well, along come the practicing BDSMers to read these stories. They see that the story is completely inaccurate and vote down accordingly. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Also, I usually vote for my own stories. I also send out emails announcing new stories to people who have sent me positive feedback about my stories (as opposed to my how-tos and so-called poetry.) But those promo emails are few and far between since I only write about one story a year.