Virgin Subs...yum. Fresh Meat.

[Lancecastor]

We compare experienced subs to pillow princesses every now and then.

A good sub is a rare bird and hard to find...newbie subs who might only be playsubs (thinking of the 9 Levels of Submission here) can be fun, but might leave you as bitter and despondent as Richard49, as they can suck your will to Dom right out of your shorts if you're not careful.

So, I'm looking for some upside in the dichotomy.

And I'm left with this...the fun part about taking a chance on a NewSub is that it's a lot like deflowering a virgin.

Ah...fresh meat.

Discuss.

 

[LisaFunOne1]

Nine Levels of Submission? im lost...
the fun part of a new sub, id think, is that you can teach him/her exactly what you like and how you like it....
on the other hand, if it doesnt come naturally to them, id bet it can be a real pain in the ass."you want me to what?" "you heard me!" "but....."
hummmm..... actually that could be heard from virgins as well....well hell, a new sub IS a virgin! just a virgin to submitting, thats all..
how could a new sub suck the will to Dom out of your shorts?

 

[Lancecastor]

NC, I see. OBX, yum.

9 Levels of Submission: http://www.mistresspatricia.net/Info_center/9_levels_of_submission.htm

A newbie sub can disappoint via surface knowledge (kink) that doesn't have depth (lifestyle).

Wannabes hurt serious participants in any craft, I suggest.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Nine Levels of Submission? im lost...
the fun part of a new sub, id think, is that you can teach him/her exactly what you like and how you like it....
on the other hand, if it doesnt come naturally to them, id bet it can be a real pain in the ass."you want me to what?" "you heard me!" "but....."
hummmm..... actually that could be heard from virgins as well....well hell, a new sub IS a virgin! just a virgin to submitting, thats all..
how could a new sub suck the will to Dom out of your shorts?

Vera's Nine Degrees of Submission

Here you go, check it out in it's original, unadulterated form. I have Pure to thank for this reference by the way.

~anelize, "your Librarian at work again"

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Someone into the play aspect can be fun, I guess...but they cannot satisfy without the 'lifestyle' aspect.

 

[LisaFunOne1]

Lance - yep! not obx tho.... it IS beautiful that way...i humbly suggest that some newbie subs actually just want to learn and enjoy and experience...

Lance and Anelize - thank you for the references.... i guess ill check both and compare notes.... also going to share the info with a couple other sub/slave/bottoms i know...

 

[FungiUg]

Wannabes hurt serious participants in any craft, I suggest.

Think again. Wannabes are where all "serious participants" start from. And everyone participates at a different level, as they need/desire to.

This just sounds like yet another excuse to draw a line between "us" and "them" and say "us" are better than "them".

 

[emer]

Wannabes hurt serious participants in any craft, I suggest.

I have a serious issue with that statement. I can see how it may "hurt" the participants of "any craft", or their image of themselves but I just can't get to excited about what other people feel. Deal with me while I give a few examples and try to work out why what Lance said hit a nerve and totally pissed me off.

1 ... one child recently gave up a sport he loved to try something new (actually two somethings) ... pool and surfing. Tired of team sports. He saves HIS money to rent surfboards and filches quarters from me whenever we are near a pool table. He watches and listens and sometimes picks one person to copy. Luckily he's only encountered an asshole once who couldn't take the time to be nice to a "wannabe" so he thinks the men and women who surf and play pool are pretty cool. How is he hurting their craft?

2 ... daughter is at the age to discover her spirituality. She has attended Bat Mitzvah's and Bar Mitzvah's and Catholic Mass ... taken roles in Southern Baptist Easter plays ... endured a year of Unitarian Sunday School ... and for the past year has been celebrating Wiccan holidays with family friends. She expresses a desire to learn and understand and join in celebrations which she feels are important to the people she loves. She is a "wannabee something" and no matter what people may say after the party, she is always welcome. How is she hurting their craft?

3 ... a dear friend of mine recently passed state boards and can proudly call herself an RN. She is working with me, training, and I can honestly say I'm going nuts. How can such a smart woman be so stupid sometimes? She's been tossed into an environment of short staffed, totally stressed out, mostly almost menopausal women (look up national average age of working RN's), expected to function independently, because we look at her age, not her experience.

... in this instance I can see how "participants" could be hurt. But the participants are not the experienced players ... they are the patients ... and the new nurses entering the profession. If no one can or wants to take the time to be patient, answer endless questions, know when to push limits, say ... "figure it out" ... the rest of us suffer because that new nurse says "fuck it" ... "i'm scared and this lifestyle isn't for me" .

4 ... I'm a virgin submissive. Don't know if this "lifestyle" is for me. One thing I'm sure of. I may be asked to do something I don't want to do, something that makes me cringe, and refuse. But I won't say that it is bad for YOU! One thing I've learned as a "wannabee" is to not be judgemental, because I've experienced so much that I never thought was possible for me to do. And I have had the opportunity to defend "odd" lifestyle choices while at work and with friends. I've become a lot more open minded and aware. So, as a wannabee, how am I hurting this craft?

had fun venting,
emer

 

[FungiUg]

... had fun venting,
emer

Applauds

Personally, my experience is that new submissives are a lot of work. One has to be careful not to push or rush them, throw them in the deep end and so on. Ensure that they develop a support network, people they can talk to (because learning that sort of stuff about yourself is scary, and learning you are not alone is important.)

Also, exploring what works for them and what doesn't is harder, because they don't know yet. Sometimes it can end up going in ways that don't work for the Dom/me, and a responsible Dom/me will recognise that and come to an agreement on how to handle it. (Which could involve moving on.)

So not only is there all the complication of a new relationship (even if only a play, sexual one), but on top of that is the complication of the submissive "finding herself" sexually!

It can be a lot of work. Of course, it's also fun and rewarding!

 

[Shadowsdream]

We compare experienced subs to pillow princesses every now and then.

A good sub is a rare bird and hard to find...newbie subs who might only be playsubs (thinking of the 9 Levels of Submission here) can be fun, but might leave you as bitter and despondent as Richard49, as they can suck your will to Dom right out of your shorts if you're not careful.

So, I'm looking for some upside in the dichotomy.

And I'm left with this...the fun part about taking a chance on a NewSub is that it's a lot like deflowering a virgin.

Ah...fresh meat.

Discuss.

Good question!

The beauty of taking a new sub to their knees is that each experience for them is truly being molded by Your hands. Each memory created will last a life time. The hesitation that is truly from a lack of experience and not a coy disobedience portraying the hesitation often seen in semi newbies still trying to create their own fantasies.
Seeing the first spark in the eye when a man or a woman is confronted with the reality that I am a Dominant, the pressure of their body against Mine as they generate closer and closer in an attempt for an intimacy that they do not understand yet cannot avoid.
Knowing that I have the ability to lead them into a world they never even dreamt of or leave them hanging onto a fantasy that is just going to begin in that moment.
The dance with a virgin sub can be so intricate and diverse in the most subtle of ways...with no expectations to speed it up or slow it down.
When I say *New Sub* in this context I speak of the men and woman who have not studied this path online. The ones that do not already live it in their minds. The ones that do not live on the knowledge of web pages to decide what should or should not be.
..well that is My short answer ~~grin~~
today I will picnic with one such woman...in a large group of friends but I already know the tension between us will be palpatable...we have met once before, shared a phone call yesterday and I can still feel the pressure of her body against Mine as she held all others from a place at My side so obviously, without even realizing that she was staking a territory that she did not understand.
Her fascination with My sexuallity is exciting in its intensity, and stimulates Me in many ways. Will I or will I not lead her into this lifestyle....who knows! Doesn't really matter as the joy in the journey is in the moment not the end.

disclaimer....newbies who have studied online and found their fantasies are inferior in no way nor superiour...simply a different subject than the one I am approaching in My comments.

 

[lady-kat]

Wannabes hurt serious participants in any craft, I suggest.

"wannabes"
an interesting word, and open to many interpertations....

in my book, the word wannabes rankles and ranks in my top 10 words not to use or that i want addressed to me, right up there next to the word worthy.

*chuckling* a little bit at a recent memory of an IM where a "Dom" approached me and used the word "worthy" ....i was to him, because of my lack of experience, a "wannabe"... as in he would evaluate me to see if i was worthy of his attention.... *shrug* and to each their own ....

but i digress, and it's late.....

Lancecastor, usually i do not post to comments such as this one because of my general lack of "working knowledge"..... but.....
it touched a raw nerve with me. and while others have replied more elequently, i'm going to put in my two cents also....

no one...IMHO.....
not Dom/ Domme/Top/submissive/slave/subbie/bottom...etc etc etc....and ad nauseum...
has a right to say their kink/desire is any better, superiour, more meaningful, more real, more serious than anyone else's....

and i will agree with another poster. wannabe is where everyone starts out...

"raw meat"... *shaking my head*...not even going to go there....

...just my rambling thoughts at 3am....

 

[catalina_francisco]

A newbie sub can disappoint via surface knowledge (kink) that doesn't have depth (lifestyle).

Wannabes hurt serious participants in any craft, I suggest.

Newbie?..well even dominants are a 'newbie' at one stage and to assume the arrogance of condemning others who come afterward, sub or Dom, has missed the point and become carried away with self importance, never a redeeming feature in my books.

Wannabes?...I agree it hurts serious participants...to me that word does not offend or upset me as I think it is a legitimate word applied to those who see the lifestyle and those in it as a hunting ground for what they want which has nothing to do with BDSM. In other words they are opportunists who do not only not understand what the lifestyle is about for each and every diverse member of it, but want to exploit those within it to meet their own vanilla needs.

While searching for the Master I would submit my life to, I grew tired of the numerous vanilla men who hung out on BDSM sites answering adverts just to get a free fuck. Some might think I am mistaken and they genuinely were wanting to be dominant? No way. Some got off on the thought of being associated with such a 'taboo' lifestyle even though they never wanted to be a serious player, or player at all, just wanted something to brag to friends about to shock and/or elevate their sexual status.

Others began the contact with words to the effect, 'Let's just have sex for now and see where it goes from there honey', all in a patronising tone used to try and intimidate me into feeling foolish and so more than willing to capitulate and help them get their rocks off....some even suggested that would be a test to see how submissive I 'really' was. Needless to say I did not bother giving them anything but a nice talk about the need to consider others before wasting our time with their games.

Also see wannabe subs as those who profess to want the lifestyle then say they only submit when they want, and only will submit to the things they want and like, and will definately not consider anyting else. Seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

So newbie I think deserves respect and time to evolve into something more....wannabe...those that are the vanilla type male 'dominant' no respect, just contempt for the pathetic creatures they are..the subs, well maybe they need to find out what they are really getting into before they get hurt. Of course others may interpret the meaning in another way and totally disagree but is the way I see it, even when applied to other contexts in the vanilla sense.

Catalina

 

[Bachlum Chaam]

Everybody starts at the beginning ,I prefer new comer as wannabe has connotations which are derogatory.I can see the challenge with a new comer also it is much harder but you can come out with the perfect sub to suit yourself.

 

[SilkVelvet]

I don't myself see anything wrong with the term 'wannabe', because in my part of the world it is used to describe something one wants and strives to achieve. Doesn't seem to have the same connotations of wannabe(loser) as in the US. Am reminded of the old hand in 'Top Gun' who tells Tom Cruise " Your ego is writing checks your body can't cash".

We were all newbies at something once upon a time. I am a newbie to this community, but were some of you to ride a horse, I may well be the 'oldie' watching you fall off yet again and thinking 'Superglue on the saddle might help here'.

I am a great believer in helping people who want to help themselves and people who want to learn. I am not prepared to help people when they just want to wallow and whinge about problems in their life or who show no commitment to that which they want to learn from me. It is a waste of my time. But if they are sincere about what they want to achieve I will shove other things to one side and spend huge amounts of time and marshal all the patience and understanding I can muster.

So I can see the point being made about 'virgin' subs.

The first time I posted on this board, I was welcomed and given some very good advice which helped me a lot and people here have been very kind and helpful to me, especially off the board and I thank all of you for that and very much appreciate it.

Trust is the foundstion stone of ANY relationship and neither it, no respect are automatic. They have to be earned. I am sure there is a certain amount of arrogance and self-confidence involve in being a Dominant/Master/Mistress but personally if someone were to say to me straight off " Convince me that you are worthy" I would walk away too and I think lady-kat did the right thing.

 

[MissTaken]

Newbies?
Wannabes?
Pillow Princesses?
Pretenders?

Unfortunately these are not only terms that bring up derrogatory images, but they mean different things to different people.

I have to agree that we all have our own tastes, our own kink and no one has a right to judge.

However, there is a certain beauty to watching the growth of a new submissive. Observing and possibly participating as they find and explore their inner selves, learning what works, what doesn't and finding peace.

As to the original statement, Lance's post made me wonder, aren't there times that an experienced submissive with preconcieved notions and expectations can be difficult to mold to a Dominant's desires?

And if that is the case, are they submitting when their expectations become more paramount than the Dominant's AFTER a connection or relationship is developing?

Bottom line: It is a beautiful lifestyle, kink, perversion or whatever you chose to practice. It isn't always easy finding that perfect match.

IMHO

 

[white_mage_goddess]

I have to agree that "wannabe" isn't the best choice of words to use...It tends to ruffle people's feathers. Actually, I like the comparison someone drew to horseback riding.....

Now I have some very nice show horses and I take my horseback riding very, very seriously. I've shown, rodeoed, trained horses, given riding lessons, etc. For me, horses are a way of life, not a hobby. Every bit of free time and money goes into my horses. However that doesn't make me any "better" than the person who owns one trail horse that they pull out of the back pasture once a month. That other person isn't a "wannabe;" they simply choose to pursue there interest in a less time consuming/less expensive manner. They may love horses just as much as I and be just as knowledgeable about them as I am.

Its the same way with bdsm for me. I don' t live a 24/7 bdsm lifestyle. For me, its a kink. Something which I enjoy that I do on fairly regular basis. I'm like that person with the trail horse....For me, bdsm is a hobby, not a lifestyle. I may not be as involved with bdsm as some others are, but I don't feel that I'm inferior or a "wannabe" because of that.

 

[catalina_francisco]

As to the original statement, Lance's post made me wonder, aren't there times that an experienced submissive with preconcieved notions and expectations can be difficult to mold to a Dominant's desires?

And if that is the case, are they submitting when their expectations become more paramount than the Dominant's AFTER a connection or relationship is developing?

Bottom line: It is a beautiful lifestyle, kink, perversion or whatever you chose to practice. It isn't always easy finding that perfect match.

IMHO

Part of the reason I am not overly into the term experienced sub, nor did I choose to undergo any training with anyone before finding the one I would commit to as a slave. I think you can train as a submissive under one Dom/me, then when you move on, meet someone else, your experience in relation to what they expect can be all wrong so you tend to be going back to the so-called newbie state and beginning to learn a whole new set of rules.

My feeling was it would become too confusing over time, especially is you submitted within relationships, to a number of D's over time. I played to test what I liked and didn't like to help define my search, but never accepted training as such. But as you say, finding the perfect match is not easy, and I for one can understand the impatience some experience.

Catalina

 

[Lancecastor]

If any of you have read of for example Richard49's experiences with submissives who weren't as dedicated to the lifestyle as he'd hoped, I don't think you'd be as critical of my choice of words.

And the fact is there a lot of people playing, experimenting with, fooling around, pretending with BDSM who will never take it as seriously as some...and that's perfectly fine by me.

The words I chose are only critical if you see those realities as negative, and that's your call, not mine.

I agree that "ya gotta start somewhere" ...but you should also consider whether you'd entrust a newbie to hold your rope while you washed skyscraper windows to get my point that yes, there is a greater risk in working with beginners that you can get hurt.

That being said, there is a particular thrill in seeing a learning sub stumble over saying the words as she trembles and yields.

Yes?

 

[His_sugar]

my personal experience has been there are inexperienced people in every group of society.

Sure, new subs would join our real life groups ( BDSM ) expecting one thing or another, and when it was different than they expected.. they never returned. They ( those who don't want to be in the lifestyle after a taste ) always weed themselves out.

i can appreciate that it is too bad when a Dom/me has to be inflicted with these undecided types.. just as i can appreciate when a sub is around a Dom/me who isn't really what they say/think they are.

i am sure i made plenty of mistakes in the beginning, but i had very supportive people around me to help my emotional and mental growth in the lifestyle.

basque

 

[catalina_francisco]

my personal experience has been there are inexperienced people in every group of society.

Sure, new subs would join our real life groups ( BDSM ) expecting one thing or another, and when it was different than they expected.. they never returned. They ( those who don't want to be in the lifestyle after a taste ) always weed themselves out.

i can appreciate that it is too bad when a Dom/me has to be inflicted with these undecided types.. just as i can appreciate when a sub is around a Dom/me who isn't really what they say/think they are.

i am sure i made plenty of mistakes in the beginning, but i had very supportive people around me to help my emotional and mental growth in the lifestyle.

basque

I agree in part with what you have said, and also agree with L that the 'negative' accusation in relation to the words is oftent he choice of those that read it as negative. I like to think there is a positive in every negative. I think some of the confusion here, as far as my previous statements are concerned, are that when I refer to wannabe's, I am not referring to someone who is genuinely wanting to be a part of the lifestyle, or even those who think they do but find it is not what they want...more the ones who use the lifestyle to get whatever kicks they want without any respect, interest, or commitment to the lifestyle or its people at all...in other words, vanilla folk who see it as a golden opportunity to score or elevate themselves in the eyes of others.

Catalina

 

[Master_Vassago]

I would prefer the challange of taking a newbie sub as opposed to a seasoned one that has been mistreated and scorned. Why? Simply because one that has been mistreated before will be easily pushed back into a situation that will remind him/her of the first time they felt abused.

A newbie, well having encountered this a few times I think they are pure. Normally eager to please, ready for any challange, and still a little headstrong. I do so love the first time you get little bits of submission from a newbie, it can be as simple as guiding them to remember to constantly call you Sir/Mistress.

The pleasure of training a newbie also is finding all their little triggers, the ones that send them hurling into subspace. Whereas the seasoned sub already knows their sensitive areas and will tell you so that you know just what works. It's experiencing it together with a newbie that makes the bond so much stronger.

As for the wannabe's I think when I posted elsewhere here I may have overstepped My own boundries and come off like an ass. Wannabe's can contribute, it actually just shows that they are trying to learn and immulate something or someone else actions they enjoy.

A newbie is so fresh and prepared to give him/herself over to learning and being trained that they tend to be childlike in their eagerness. And when they falter the first time and are disciplined it makes it all the sweeter because some truly have no idea what to expect.

Every Dom Master/Mistress also Switches, have their own style. No ones right or wrong ever. As long as the two involved know their roles and please each other within those roles who nothing else matters.

I would be interested in finding out what is thought of new Doms as well. It is always the new subs that tend to be targeted but, Doms need guidance as well. Let's face it neither sub nor Dom can just pick up things without a little help, I for one don't mind guiding either.

Sorry if I got sidetracked. MV

 

[rosco rathbone]

We compare experienced subs to pillow princesses every now and then.

A good sub is a rare bird and hard to find...newbie subs who might only be playsubs (thinking of the 9 Levels of Submission here) can be fun, but might leave you as bitter and despondent as Richard49, as they can suck your will to Dom right out of your shorts if you're not careful.

So, I'm looking for some upside in the dichotomy.

And I'm left with this...the fun part about taking a chance on a NewSub is that it's a lot like deflowering a virgin.

Ah...fresh meat.

Discuss.

*snicker* Richard will feel better after his estrogen replacement therapy kicks in.

All in all, I don't really get the "deflowering the virgins" thing, but there is something to be said for keeping the women worried about "newness".

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Virgin Subs...yum. Fresh Meat.

Good question!

The beauty of taking a new sub to their knees is that each experience for them is truly being molded by Your hands. Each memory created will last a life time. The hesitation that is truly from a lack of experience and not a coy disobedience portraying the hesitation often seen in semi newbies still trying to create their own fantasies.
Seeing the first spark in the eye when a man or a woman is confronted with the reality that I am a Dominant, the pressure of their body against Mine as they generate closer and closer in an attempt for an intimacy that they do not understand yet cannot avoid.
Knowing that I have the ability to lead them into a world they never even dreamt of or leave them hanging onto a fantasy that is just going to begin in that moment.
The dance with a virgin sub can be so intricate and diverse in the most subtle of ways...with no expectations to speed it up or slow it down.
When I say *New Sub* in this context I speak of the men and woman who have not studied this path online. The ones that do not already live it in their minds. The ones that do not live on the knowledge of web pages to decide what should or should not be.
..well that is My short answer ~~grin~~
today I will picnic with one such woman...in a large group of friends but I already know the tension between us will be palpatable...we have met once before, shared a phone call yesterday and I can still feel the pressure of her body against Mine as she held all others from a place at My side so obviously, without even realizing that she was staking a territory that she did not understand.
Her fascination with My sexuallity is exciting in its intensity, and stimulates Me in many ways. Will I or will I not lead her into this lifestyle....who knows! Doesn't really matter as the joy in the journey is in the moment not the end.

disclaimer....newbies who have studied online and found their fantasies are inferior in no way nor superiour...simply a different subject than the one I am approaching in My comments.

I have always appreciated that you "get" the point and then articulate it so beautifully, Ma'am. Your post is wonderful, as usual.

I miss your posts when you are not here and I am not either.
Rose

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Virgin Subs...yum. Fresh Meat.

*snicker* Richard will feel better after his estrogen replacement therapy kicks in.

All in all, I don't really get the "deflowering the virgins" thing, but there is something to be said for keeping the women worried about "newness".

Richard has gone AlanAlda on us, hasn't he?

Keeping them on their knees...er, toes is critical, I think.

 

[incubus_dark]

I have watched a few dom friends get really wrapped in various new to the scene subs that took their fancy and feel hurt when the subs decided that they weren't subs after all and nol onger wanted to play. This doesn't seem much different to me than the similar risk people take every day when they enter a new vanilla relationship.

I can see why for some, the extra care and effort that a new sub needs might seem like too much hard work, especially when they may just bow out alltogether (ie. they were wanabes but weren't). But then, they might not too.

For me, there's something especially poignant in that morose look of inward horror that a new sub's face takes on over and over again, as she is lead to ever deeper levels of humiliation and degredation, and must face the fact that she likes it and wants it. So what if at some point she bows out. I've already taken a pleasure I especially enjoy and she'll probably never forget what I've given her in return. And if she doesn't bow out? Well... How low can you go?