Violence in the playground

[NoJo]

The retrosexual thread brought this to mind:

My teenage son has been suspended from school this week (the new word is "excluded") for a fight in the playground. The fight was nothing more than a few shoves and slaps. So now I have to have him with me in my office every day.

I can't help remembering my own school, where playground fights like this were pretty common, and rarely resulted in suspension.

I guess the schools want to send a "zero tolerance" message out, but I think it's damned unfair; but to be honest I don't know why I think that.

Do you think this is the way for schools to get kids to grow into non-violent adults? Sling them out for a week for a single playground fight?

And what am I supposed to do with the boy all week? Teach him Geography and RE?

Confused Dad.

 

[BlackSnake]

I feel for you. Society has breed a bunch of sissies. They pick up sticks, knives, and guns.

I've gotten the crap kicked out of me, and I've done my share of ass kicking. In each case the situation was solved. Even when I've won fights, I wasn't in to big of a hurry to do that again.

We didn't have bullies, because there was always someone else around who felt that they could thump their chest louder. Picking up something to fight with usually led to your own friends turning on you. No one got beaten to death.

Good luck to you raising your son. Society is making it harder for you. How can you teach your son to stand up for what he believes in, especially when he has the feeling that he might lose.

 

[Belegon]

I can't help remembering my own school, where playground fights like this were pretty common, and rarely resulted in suspension.

I guess the schools want to send a "zero tolerance" message out, but I think it's damned unfair; but to be honest I don't know why I think that.

Do you think this is the way for schools to get kids to grow into non-violent adults? Sling them out for a week for a single playground fight?

Confused Dad.

Guess what Joe, it's not just the teenagers. We are dealing with a situation with my 6 yr old where I have no clue what the school and after school care program are thinking.

Zero Tolerance policies in general are idiotic. They lead to things like an eagle scout getting suspended for a pen knife and do little to nothing to protect kids from real danger. They are more about adults protecting themselves from lawsuits then they are about making our kids safe.

I only got suspended once in my school career and it was for a real knockdown-punches-thrown-rolling-around-on-the-floor type. Times where it was just pushing and shoving were met with a glaring priest slapping a paddle against his hand. Rarely did it need anything more.

I think we need to allow our schools to deal with things in house without zero tolerance idiocy.

 

[Guest]

Joe, I feel for you. I do think zero-tolerance only makes it easier for institutions, and there's not much you can do about that.

The fact that you posted this thread says more to me about you, and causes me to recall the constant anxiety of raising teenage boys (without a partner). There was often quite a battle within myself trying to figure out, too often 'on the spot', just what to say or do. I had to keep 'the boy' in mind, as I knew him, and then consider the context of a situation, including societal norms and expectations; yikes, even basic psychology at times.

Mostly I had to trust the boy, but I had to let him know he owed me something for it, the trust. How did that happen? Talking. I know it's fucking difficult communicating with adolescents, but just keep at it, even if you sound incomprehensible to yourself.

Once I was talking to my 15 year old son, just going on saying whatever came to mind, trying to "reach" him, trying to bridge what seemed an abyss to me. At a pause he leapt in and very nicely and sincerely said, "Mom, I don't know what you're talking about." I burst out laughing, and we were fine; end of that conversation. It seemed all that mattered was that I had tried.

As for what to do with the lad for a week, I'd suggest letting him be (after you've tried the talking bit).

best to you and him, Perdita

 

[BlackSnake]

Re: Re: Violence in the playground

...

I only got suspended once in my school career and it was for a real knockdown-punches-thrown-rolling-around-on-the-floor type. Times where it was just pushing and shoving were met with a glaring priest slapping a paddle against his hand. Rarely did it need anything more.

I think we need to allow our schools to deal with things in house without zero tolerance idiocy.

I feared my mother too much to fight in school. The playground or down the street from the school where I could run like heck to keep any grown-up from catching up to me. Fear of mom. Strong single parent.

It could be something good to have your son see what you do. I know I wished I that I knew more about my father before he passed. I even tried being a cop like him. I join the Army even though he was a Marine, to experience what he experienced. This might not be a altogether bad thing for you and your son.

 

[Belegon]

Re: Re: Re: Violence in the playground

I feared my mother too much to fight in school.

Oh, I understand that part! I was lucky enough to grow up in a two parent family with a healthy kind of fear of their disappointment. Mind you, I was never struck by my parents in a manner I felt unwarranted or abusive.

My Dad's reaction to the incident mentioned above was basically of the "why did it happen" type. In that particular case he did not feel I was justified and I paid for it. Not physically by then, but I paid in chores, etc.

There were only two times my father really scared me after I became a teenager.

One was a general lecture on exactly what he would do to me if I ever struck a woman. ( I had not done so! It was a pre-emptive strike!) He left it clear that he had a very old-school attitude about it and that if he found out I had "taken advantage of my size and strength" he would multiply the damage done by a factor of at least three and visit it upon me.

The other time was when I drove home from a party drunk. It was made excessively clear that no matter what happened I was never to do it again. The driving part. I was in trouble for the underage drinking, but not nearly as much as for the driving.

 

[NoJo]

Thanks for those reactions...

My kids go to a large school, about 2,000. There's rich and poor; the majority are neither, and racially many of them are mongrels like my own kids. That was pretty much the same as my own school.

The biggest differences I've noticed between "my day" in the early '70's, and now is:

1. Less ganging on racial lines nowadays;
2. More focus on studying among working class kids;
3. More nasty drugs now;
4. A HELL of a lot more jacking now. Kids walk around with a lot more valuables I guess. I blame Nike, Sony, Nokia and Apple.

Sex seems to be pretty much the same: poor kids start early, rich kids later.

I hear you about Zero tolerance, belegon and p. That's hit the nail on the head about why I was angry, but didn't know why. It's like all the teachers care about is some formal process that protects them. I never thought about the lawsuit aspect. That must be a part of it.

My son was more scared of my reaction than anything else. Well I was vaguely proud of my tough kid (but I hid that emotion); but I just said to him, "make sure you keep up with the school work you're missing, so you don't fall behind." My mother, smart as anything, didn't think it 's a big deal. She just said "well, you can help me with the shopping now you have some free time."

Like a lot of middle-aged parents, I sometimes feel like I'm the only juvenile around. Thank God for Grandma.

And yes, P, I've done just what you suggested. I've let him be -- that's the biggest affirmation a teenager can get from his parents, I think; otherwise he's feel like he's not to be trusted.

 

[dirtylover]

Do they happen to have an impending inspection? My school excluded loads of troublemakers before OFSTED, obviously to make it easier for the teachers...

 

[NoJo]

Do they happen to have an impending inspection? My school excluded loads of troublemakers before OFSTED, obviously to make it easier for the teachers...

Good question! I'll ask them when I go to the meeting.

 

[Guest]

Good question! I'll ask them when I go to the meeting.

Yes, that is a very good point. My kids' school is exactly the same.

My daughter came home from school at lunchtime today (she's 7, btw), because they broke up early for the Easter Holidays. She was very shaken, because a classmate of hers got beaten up in their playground this morning, had his neck twisted and his collar bone broken. He's just seven years old and the boy that did this to him is just eight. I don't know the lead up to the fight, but from what witnesses said, it was clearly excessive and the boy does have a history of violent outbursts. He was immediately expelled (I got called in to help deal with it, but as this is Lit, I won't say in what capacity. ).

What are the school doing to try to counteract such excessive violent behaviour? They are "rewarding" these children with head and foot massages in a quiet room. I mean, wtf???

I knew it would come to something like this, the poor boy is lucky to be alive.

Don't get me wrong, scraps and all out fights happen, and it is all part of growing up. But, when children are lashing out like that, at such a young age, they need dealing with in a firm manner, not given friggin' massages! Ok, I am over-simpilfying it, but the intent is the same. The money to fund this comes from the general school budget - thus taking it away from re-stocking the library with much needed books and so on.

And, yes, I have taken it up with the LEA (Local Education Authority).

An exasperated parent,

Lou

 

[Guest]

 

[dirtylover]

In my experience, working in a school soon has you harking for the days of corporal punishment, however left you are.

Foot massages? Wow, think I might go and break someones neck!
What if I kill 'em, do I get a full massage then?

re Zero tolerance - from what I've heard, the reverse is usually true. I've heard of kids behaviour invloving drugs, violence - whatever, and the school are loathe to do anything because it damages their reputation. I mean, would you send you're kid to a school where a whole bunch of kids had been sent down for dealing and GBH?

 

[NoJo]

Wow. A broken collarbone is major. Funnily enough, what pissed me off so much about my kid is the "inclusion" policy they have in both his current school and his primary school where bordeline psychotics are specifically not excluded.

One of them turned up on our doorstep yesterday, asking if my son was going to the park. This is what I was afraid of: My son is now perceived as one of the cool, "bad boys" by other kids. God knows what the teachers now think of him.

 

[Guest]

In my experience, working in a school soon has you harking for the days of corporal punishment, however left you are.

Foot massages? Wow, think I might go and break someones neck!
What if I kill 'em, do I get a full massage then?

re Zero tolerance - from what I've heard, the reverse is usually true. I've heard of kids behaviour invloving drugs, violence - whatever, and the school are loathe to do anything because it damages their reputation. I mean, would you send you're kid to a school where a whole bunch of kids had been sent down for dealing and GBH?

That is precisely the problem at this school. They are bottom of the sodding league table, and this area in general has a bad reputation, so the school is trying to shake off that reputation by covering up the fact there are "problem children" in the school, and acting all sweetness and light about it.

I'm one of the lone voices from within, very loudly stating my own disagreement with this policy.

The school is a small community school, and contrary to the picture I'm painting of it, both of my daughters are doing very well there. This is partly due to my attitude, but also due to their hunger for learning. What amused me recently was that I threatened to pull them out of the school, and the acting Headmaster responded by saying, "Please don't, they push up the averages of the school as a whole." I was dumbfounded, both because of his attitude about them being a commodity, but also because he actually admitted it to me!

From my viewpoint, the education system is in dire need of a shift in attitude.

Sub Joe:

Wow. A broken collarbone is major. Funnily enough, what pissed me off so much about my kid is the "inclusion" policy they have in both his current school and his primary school where bordeline psychotics are specifically not excluded.

Yep, that's exactly the policy of this school. But, they had no choice with this boy this morning: the police were involved. There was no way they could brush this one under the carpet.

Joe, I just want to add that I feel for you, and I do think you sound like a great parent, and are handling your son in the only way you can. It's a tough world out there, with many hard lessons to be learned. I hope your son comes through ok, and with a Dad like you, I'm sure he will. It is so true that, whatever we, as parents, do, sometimes they just get in with the "wrong crowd", and there isn't much we can do about it, except hope that our own children are sensible enough to fundamentally know right from wrong.

Lou

 

[cloudy]

Joe, I feel for you, for I have been in almost the exact situation a year or so ago.

My oldest son, now 15, is a very passive sort of person, and normally puts up with much more than I would like him too. The other side of the coin is that he is also a first degree black belt in Taikwondo, with many competitions under his belt.

Last year, a boy who has failed several years, and was naturally much bigger than most of the kids in his grade started picking on mine. He hit my son, and was suspended for ONE (yes, one) day. I had a serious talk with mine, and told him I expected him to always refrain from starting anything along those lines, but also expected him to stick up for himself, as he is quite capable of doing so.

Skip forward two days, the bully is back at school, and again, starts picking on my son. Said son tells the bully to back off, he has a black belt; bully doesn't believe him, hits him again, and (I honestly got gleeful when told this part) my son lets loose with a swinging round kick, and several rabbit kicks to the chest following, knocking said bully completely on his ass, and approximately 8 feet behind where he started from.

Principal called me and dad in (we're divorced but have a great friendship), and unbelievably insisted that our son was in the wrong! (one caveat: the bully has been in and out of trouble for the last three years or so)

Things are in bad shape when a child has to be an advanced martial arts student to be able to get an education and deal with the assorted BS on a day-to-day basis. Needless to say, I treated his "suspension" as a nice break for him, and emphasized that he SHOULD ONLY DEFEND HIMSELF.

Our school system sucks....and I think it's pretty much a nationwide problem.

Cloudy

 

[Guest]

Our school system sucks....and I think it's pretty much a nationwide problem.

Cloudy

Hi Cloudy,

Good post, and I say kudos to you and your son. But, I just wanted to point out that it's a worldwide problem; Joe, dl and I are all talking about the education system in Britain.

Lou

 

[raphy]

Re: Re: Violence in the playground

They are more about adults protecting themselves from lawsuits then they are about making our kids safe.

Hear hear!

 

[cloudy]

I'm sure it's just as bad world-wide as it is here, Lou, but have zero experience anywhere else (although I DID spend some time in Denmark - but that's a whole 'nother story )

Cloudy

 

[NoJo]

I feel for you. Society has breed a bunch of sissies. They pick up sticks, knives, and guns.

I've gotten the crap kicked out of me, and I've done my share of ass kicking. In each case the situation was solved. Even when I've won fights, I wasn't in to big of a hurry to do that again.

We didn't have bullies, because there was always someone else around who felt that they could thump their chest louder. Picking up something to fight with usually led to your own friends turning on you. No one got beaten to death.

Good luck to you raising your son. Society is making it harder for you. How can you teach your son to stand up for what he believes in, especially when he has the feeling that he might lose.

Didn't see your post back there, snake!

 

[PorscheLynn]

Ohhhh. I'm not even sure where to begin on this subject. My younger brother, when he was in third grade, got suspended repeatedly and eventually expelled for fighting. Every single parent in this whole stinking town thinks he's a lunatic and a bully, or worse. What they can't comprehend is that their darling little children are the ones who started it. It never ceases to infuriate me that teachers don't bother to get the whole story. The kid who is perceived as being most violent must be the instigator in their eyes. To me, I think this is absolutely no way to measure, because oftentimes it can be that in one fight it's true, and the next fight it's true, and by the third fight the other kid is so damn tired of being picked on that they explode. Which makes them the more violent one; but doesn't make them the one who started it. And what of situations where the bully isn't being *physically* violent? Why can society see that violence can be verbal or emotional as well as physical in the case of domestic violence, but when it's kids on the playground, the only thing that gets them suspended is the physical violence?

Or how about an example from my own school days (not that long ago; like seven or eight years ago this incident in particular). For MONTHS a certain cliche of girls were calling me names, picking on my clothes and so on. I came from middle middle class family in an upper middle class town, so I was treated like we were deep in poverty, not worth their spit. They also made fun of how pale I am; I'm the palest person I know, by far. They called me Casper endlessly. I hated it, and said so; making a point of asking them reasonably not to call me that. They continued. It took about three months of repeatedly complaining directly to the principal to get them to stop. They were never suspended, just talked to sternly.

The kicker? My teacher started that nickname, and SHE never stopped calling me that, no matter how much I asked her, or complained.



(sorry for the rant, this is a major sore point, as what I just mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg with our family's stories)

 

[NoJo]

Wow, Posche.

What I want to know is: what should the school have done about your kid brother?

It sounds like in your own case you're saying the school colluded with the people who bullied you by not doing anything. But with your brother you seem angry that they sort of did too much... not that slinging a guy out of school can be considered doing a lot...

 

[raphy]

Schools collude with bullies often, if it suits their political agenda. I know this from personal experience.

As you can see from my AV, I am not of caucasian descent. I'm probably an ethnic minority in my own right

I was fortunate enough to be educated at an upper class English public (for americans, read private) school. This upper class English school was very expensive, very right wing and very racist. My parents were not rich (I got in on a scholarship), they were liberals and I was not white.

The teachers turned so many blind eyes I'm surprised they could see anything at all.

 

[PorscheLynn]

Well my problem is basically they did a lot of nothing. They took one look a kid with problems (part of the issue is he also has issues with a form of high-functioning autism, and depression) and they just basically said "Huh. Weird. Never dealt with that before. Get rid of him." You see, what I failed to mention was that my brother is now 14 and *still* behind in some educational areas in part because they spent a year doing nothing to find him placement in another school. They were just happy to be rid of him, and that was that. And once we finally put enough pressure on them to place him, it took them several more months to get him somewhere. I know that's not an easy decision to make, and can't be made overnight; but he lost nearly two years of school, and it's because of them.

Oh, I should mention that it's seperate school systems in the two cases I mentioned; we moved a couple years after the story about myself, the summer before my brother's third year of school, which is what I was talking about. So those are completely seperate towns.

 

[Weird Harold]

Yep, that's exactly the policy of this school. But, they had no choice with this boy this morning: the police were involved. There was no way they could brush this one under the carpet.

I think the police should be more involved more often.

My younger daughter had a problem with a bully in middle school but since the bully was clever enough to makesure there were no adult witnesses the school wouldn't do anything.

The day my daughter came home with a bruise from an encounter with the bully, I took her down to the police station to file assault charges.

The City Police went into the classroom to arrest the bully he next day.

The day my daughter showed up to testify in Juvenile Court, the bully changed her plea to Guilty and transfered to Juvenile Detention for the remainder of that school year. ( I have no idea how much more time she spent there, because she was never again in the same school as my daughter that I know of.)

My daughter never had trouble with bullies again -- at least none that she told me about or that left a mark on her.

I think that she got the reputation that she would not only file a complaint with the City Police instead of the School Police AND that she'd actually show up to testify instead of dropping the complaint.

IMHO, If more kids and parents would file assualt charges against bulies, the bullies wouldn't be so brazen and the school wouldn't be so lenient.

Having the Police show up and take students from the classroom in handcuffs is bad publicity that schools don't want. Although it does seem to have a salutory effect on other bullies to see one of their ringleaders arrested like that.

 

[Guest]

Couldn't agree more, WH. You must be very proud of your daughter, I know I would be!

Lou