View from the top...

[carsonshepherd]

Today, I had a realization. It was actually a two-parter.

I was reading about human puppies, thanks to the informative site posted by CeriseNoire. (Thanks!) Anyway, human puppies basically pretend to be dogs. They have a Trainer/Master who treats them like, well, a puppy. They wrap things around their hands to bind their fingers to simulate paws, wear collars, and depending on how far they want to go with it, even eat dog food and "do their business" outside. I kept reading because I found it baffling that someone would choose to give up their "person" hood - I mean, opposable thumbs are cool, right? - and I just didn't understand the motivation. I don't really "get" BDSM relationships.

Then I read a testimonial by someone who actually lived the "puppy" life. He said that puppies don't have to work, all they have to do is obey and be loved. And for a certain type of person, I imagine that could be strongly seductive; give up control and be completely taken care of by your Trainer, and not have to make decisions, in return for complete loyalty and obedience.

I'm not one of those people who is attracted to that idea, but I can see how someone could be.

The second part of my realization came from a discussion I had with my SO. Basically what it boiled down to is, that he can't be happy with me unless I can be a strong top. When we got together I was working full time and going to school part time and paying the bills and generally taking care of the household. I would not have gone back to school without his emotional support. Then, I got fired from my job and had a car accident. I've been somewhat paralyzed since, drawing unemployment and going to school part time and borrowing his car. We got behind on the bills. He's had to take responsibility for some of the bills and the household, and while I'm able to handle work, school and the house - I don't think he is. I've already come to the conclusion that I'm going to be the main earner in this relationship and I don't have a problem with it (I just haven't been doing it lately.)

Top or bottom doesn't really mean that much to me. I prefer "all bosses and no workers" type thing, where everyone shares responsibility. But I've thought about it all day and I don't think he wants to share the ultimate responsibility for decisions and daily life. I think he wants to "give in" and let me take care of those things. If I want to be with him, I'm pretty much a de facto top. And I realized that if I want him to respect me, then I have to be a strong, responsible top; and he can relax and concentrate on the things that he needs to do, like school.

It's not really a sexual thing; I think it's a personality thing. He is definitely more submissive than I am, and overwhelmed by responsibility. I think he really needs me to be strong for him. I'm capable of being a strong top, I think. I just don't understand much about into this sort of thing. Can anyone comment on the "submissive" personality and give me some insight into this situation?

 

[rgraham666]

I had trouble with the idea for a long time. I had to do a lot of thinking and research to understand the D/s relationship.

Basically, in my understanding it's about power, and power's constant companion, responsibility. Some people don't like having them, some do.

So the bottom gives up power and responsibility to the top. Both parties enjoy this.

I'm pretty much a top myself. Like a character in one of my stories, every time I've passed responsibility to someone else, they've betrayed me. A bottom needs to trust their top and I have very severe problems trusting anybody.

 

[TxRad]

You took the long way around but welcome....

Sub and dom are to harsh for what you have figured out. BDSM has nothing to do with it on your level. You are in the normal range of most all relationships. One partner is usually the one with the responsibility and carries the load. Most of the time that's not a top but a husband. Okay, before all the ladies start throwing rocks. That's not always the case I'm sure but it is a lot of the time...

Carson, I hate to break it to ya but very few relationships are fifty fifty. If they were then the divorce rates would be a lot lower. Finding what each partner will do in any given set of circumstances and how each will fulfill that role is the start of a good relationship. In your case, you've been chosen as the leader or at least given that position to fill.

If you want it, take it. If you're comfortable with it, then much so the better. But you two need to talk and figure out a way to get closer to the middle on everything. A stronger relationship will come of it. Save the Dom/Sub talk for the Bedroom.... All relationships have a strong and a weak side on each and every subject.

Sorry for wandering but it's time to get off work and I'm hurrying.

Tx

 

[cloudy]

Most of the time that's not a top but a husband. Okay, before all the ladies start throwing rocks. That's not always the case I'm sure but it is a lot of the time...

The husband may be the main earner "a lot of the time," but in most cases, it isn't him that does the grunt work of paying the bills, buying the groceries, taking care of the household, etc.

If I left, this house would literally shut down. It happened last time I left, and there's not a doubt in my mind it would happen again.

"Main earner" does not equal "responsible party."

 

[TxRad]

Cloudy, I said that more tongue in cheek as the husband, that's why I tried to cover it with the next line. Paying the bills is quit different that holding the responsibility for making the money... Key word is responsibility and that is the key to Carson's question. Gender in this case makes it a mute question...

 

[3113]

I find this very interesting, Carson, because the same sort of realizations came to me when I started researching the leather world for my stories. It's because the "extremes" make what is usually pretty fuzzy and out of focus that much clearer. The hardest thing to get, for me, was exactly the thing you're having trouble with, the "puppy" or bottom. This isn't to say that it was a complete mystery to me. Most of us aren't all tops or bottoms, and most of us like the thrill, now and then, of surrendering control and letting someone else make the decisions. There's many a time when we want to just lie back and say, "You decide!"

But most of us also want to be in control now and then. To want to be always the puppy, told what to do and when to do it, can be mystifying. Still, I don't think you have to worry about that as much as you think. Most relationships split themselves not 50-50 so much as this-and-that. One partner decides certain things, the other partner decides other things.

For example, in my house I rule the kitchen. Period. I'm such a "top" when it comes to the kitchen that I have a hard time letting my husband cook things--or even touch my cooking utensils. I designed and outfitted that kitchen and it is MINE! I stock the refrigerator and I arrange dishes in the dishwasher. But outside of that kitchen, the house is mutual at best--and pretty well dominated by my husband. His artwork is on the walls. His clothes, books, magazines everywhere. He designed the furniture in the living room....

I think what I'm saying is that while your SO may seem submissive, there are things that he might wish control over; there are other things, however, that stress him out if he's given control over them, and so he'd rather you step up to the plate and handle them. I think that's how most relationships work, with an ebb-and-flow between who's on top and who's on the bottom--or rather, with control flowing back and forth depending on who-knows-what-best. I remember seeing this ebb-and-flow while planning for my wedding. I knew what flowers I wanted, and my husband didn't care, so flowers were my decision--I wanted control over them and I took control. When it came to the music, I didn't care, but my husband cared and took complete charge of that.

The only time there's a problem with this kind of thing is (1) when there are lies or disbelief. That is, when someone says, "You decide," and pretends to surrender control--but in reality they're lying; they want to decide. Or when someone says "You decide," and they mean it, but the other person doesn't believe them, or (2) when neither person wants control and yet someone has to do it. That's a worse problem than if both of you want control. Two bosses, if in tune, can work together. But two workers without a boss to direct them are lost. You end up with the "dinner" situation you sometimes have with friends: "Where are we going to dinner?" "I dunno, where do you want to go?" "I dunno, how about you?" "I don't care. How about here."
"No, I don't like that place, how about here?" "No...." AAARRGG!

Does any of this address the question in any way?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Yes, it does. I'll have more thoughts on this later, but meantime I have to dash. Keep those observations coming....

 

[carsonshepherd]

The husband may be the main earner "a lot of the time," but in most cases, it isn't him that does the grunt work of paying the bills, buying the groceries, taking care of the household, etc.
...

"Main earner" does not equal "responsible party."

Exactly, and I think it's ridiculous to think that just because you bring home a larger paycheck, you are exempt from "the trenches." I lived that life for too long. I know what it's like.

 

[carsonshepherd]

All relationships have a strong and a weak side on each and every subject.


Tx

Yes. I think so. But most people are not self aware enough to know their strengths and weaknesses. Thank dog my BF has had enough therapy to know where his head's at.

I also said that I needed to be a strong top to get his respect. What I've realized is, I need to "do it all" - school, work, family - to respect myself.

 

[carsonshepherd]

I find this very interesting, Carson, because the same sort of realizations came to me when I started researching the leather world for my stories. It's because the "extremes" make what is usually pretty fuzzy and out of focus that much clearer. The hardest thing to get, for me, was exactly the thing you're having trouble with, the "puppy" or bottom. This isn't to say that it was a complete mystery to me. Most of us aren't all tops or bottoms, and most of us like the thrill, now and then, of surrendering control and letting someone else make the decisions. There's many a time when we want to just lie back and say, "You decide!"

But most of us also want to be in control now and then. To want to be always the puppy, told what to do and when to do it, can be mystifying. Still, I don't think you have to worry about that as much as you think. Most relationships split themselves not 50-50 so much as this-and-that. One partner decides certain things, the other partner decides other things.

For example, in my house I rule the kitchen. Period. I'm such a "top" when it comes to the kitchen that I have a hard time letting my husband cook things--or even touch my cooking utensils. I designed and outfitted that kitchen and it is MINE! I stock the refrigerator and I arrange dishes in the dishwasher. But outside of that kitchen, the house is mutual at best--and pretty well dominated by my husband. His artwork is on the walls. His clothes, books, magazines everywhere. He designed the furniture in the living room....

I think what I'm saying is that while your SO may seem submissive, there are things that he might wish control over; there are other things, however, that stress him out if he's given control over them, and so he'd rather you step up to the plate and handle them. I think that's how most relationships work, with an ebb-and-flow between who's on top and who's on the bottom--or rather, with control flowing back and forth depending on who-knows-what-best. I remember seeing this ebb-and-flow while planning for my wedding. I knew what flowers I wanted, and my husband didn't care, so flowers were my decision--I wanted control over them and I took control. When it came to the music, I didn't care, but my husband cared and took complete charge of that.

The only time there's a problem with this kind of thing is (1) when there are lies or disbelief. That is, when someone says, "You decide," and pretends to surrender control--but in reality they're lying; they want to decide. Or when someone says "You decide," and they mean it, but the other person doesn't believe them, or (2) when neither person wants control and yet someone has to do it. That's a worse problem than if both of you want control. Two bosses, if in tune, can work together. But two workers without a boss to direct them are lost. You end up with the "dinner" situation you sometimes have with friends: "Where are we going to dinner?" "I dunno, where do you want to go?" "I dunno, how about you?" "I don't care. How about here."
"No, I don't like that place, how about here?" "No...." AAARRGG!

Does any of this address the question in any way?

Heee. I'm always the one who decides where we eat. Maybe I've been a top all along.

My BF has taken control of the kitchen. I'm trying to abdicate, but I still resent some things he does in "my" kitchen.

I wonder, though - if I work outside the house again, will he start doing household chores like he did before I got fired from my job?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Cloudy, I said that more tongue in cheek as the husband, that's why I tried to cover it with the next line. Paying the bills is quit different that holding the responsibility for making the money... Key word is responsibility and that is the key to Carson's question. Gender in this case makes it a mute question...

I consider it responsibility on a macro or micro level. Who is responsible for getting dinner on the table? And then, who is responsible for household budgeting? One person can be responsible for keeping the household running, or someone can be a lump who goes to work and then comes home and does less than nothing.

 

[carsonshepherd]

I had trouble with the idea for a long time. I had to do a lot of thinking and research to understand the D/s relationship.

Basically, in my understanding it's about power, and power's constant companion, responsibility. Some people don't like having them, some do.

So the bottom gives up power and responsibility to the top. Both parties enjoy this.

I'm pretty much a top myself. Like a character in one of my stories, every time I've passed responsibility to someone else, they've betrayed me. A bottom needs to trust their top and I have very severe problems trusting anybody.

I think this is part of my BF's problem. He has been betrayed too many times, and since I lost my job, I've not proved myself worthy of his trust. He loves me, but struggles to really trust me...

 

[Guest]

cant comment as a sub, but as a natural domme i can say that theres only ever been one woman i could and wanted to submit to.

for me its all about trust. i know theres lots of people who dont get the whole D/s thing. ive tried to understand it my whole life. ive come to accept that its about feelings. theres stuff there that cant be explained. when youre there and all you want is for her to fuck you in any she wants to and you'll do anything to get that. how do you explain that? you cant. its instinct and its natural. i dont really think i want it explained.

as for being a domme for me its also a natural need. when i was younger i'd read about it and think "oh i get that totally!" its like youve known it all along and then you read or find out more about it and it totally fits what you already just knew by instinct.

as for D/s outside of sex. i don't like the idea of taking it outside of the bedroom. partnership is a equal thing. sure there will be things you'll be good with and stuff he's better at and thats the way it should be.

communication is the key. if u feel you cant give him what he needs then tell him. but also tell him what it is that you can give him. and make sure you understand what he needs and wants from you.

its wonderful if you can have a partner you can grow and experiment with. the woman i mentioned in the start was like that with me. i was scared out of my mind when i started feeling like i wanted to sub for her. and i told her that. and she was gentle and told me its ok. that whatever happened it would be ok.

i'm rambling. i guess what i wanted to say with all of this is that i dont think u have to be for him what he wants and needs straight away. you can grow and change together and work towards what you both need. and have one hell of a lot of fun in the process.

hope it goes well for you.

 

[impressive]

cant comment as a sub, but as a natural domme i can say that theres only ever been one woman i could and wanted to submit to.

for me its all about trust. i know theres lots of people who dont get the whole D/s thing. ive tried to understand it my whole life. ive come to accept that its about feelings. theres stuff there that cant be explained. when youre there and all you want is for her to fuck you in any she wants to and you'll do anything to get that. how do you explain that? you cant. its instinct and its natural. i dont really think i want it explained.

as for being a domme for me its also a natural need. when i was younger i'd read about it and think "oh i get that totally!" its like youve known it all along and then you read or find out more about it and it totally fits what you already just knew by instinct.

as for D/s outside of sex. i don't like the idea of taking it outside of the bedroom. partnership is a equal thing. sure there will be things you'll be good with and stuff he's better at and thats the way it should be.

communication is the key. if u feel you cant give him what he needs then tell him. but also tell him what it is that you can give him. and make sure you understand what he needs and wants from you.

its wonderful if you can have a partner you can grow and experiment with. the woman i mentioned in the start was like that with me. i was scared out of my mind when i started feeling like i wanted to sub for her. and i told her that. and she was gentle and told me its ok. that whatever happened it would be ok.

i'm rambling. i guess what i wanted to say with all of this is that i dont think u have to be for him what he wants and needs straight away. you can grow and change together and work towards what you both need. and have one hell of a lot of fun in the process.

hope it goes well for you.

I totally get this.

 

[S-Des]

I totally get this.

Whereas my experience is 100% opposite. I was always in relationships with strong women who never displayed a desire to have me take charge more than what most people would consider normal. I had one relationship with someone who I now realize was a natural sub, but I mistook it for weakness and didn't properly respect her. Kiten has changed the way I view the whole D/S thing (both in the bondage aspect and with the way I assert myself). I have to trust her every bit as much as she trusts me (some of the suggestions I bring up could result in a breakup in a different relationship). I believe that she'll try anything I ask (within reason) and if it's not for her, she'll tell me without judging. This has allowed me to be myself far more than at any other time in my life and (surprise surprise) I'm happier than ever before, despite the distance.

I've discussed it with a number of people (including the very insightful Imp) and feel I understand both sides far more than I did before. Much of me being comfortable taking the lead has to do with her. Imp said that the Bottom always has the power. Imp is good . . . Imp is wise.

 

[impressive]

Whereas my experience is 100% opposite. I was always in relationships with strong women who never displayed a desire to have me take charge more than what most people would consider normal. I had one relationship with someone who I now realize was a natural sub, but I mistook it for weakness and didn't properly respect her. Kiten has changed the way I view the whole D/S thing (both in the bondage aspect and with the way I assert myself). I have to trust her every bit as much as she trusts me (some of the suggestions I bring up could result in a breakup in a different relationship). I believe that she'll try anything I ask (within reason) and if it's not for her, she'll tell me without judging. This has allowed me to be myself far more than at any other time in my life and (surprise surprise) I'm happier than ever before, despite the distance.

I've discussed it with a number of people (including the very insightful Imp) and feel I understand both sides far more than I did before. Much of me being comfortable taking the lead has to do with her. Imp said that the Bottom always has the power. Imp is good . . . Imp is wise.

Don't misquote me! *swat* I said the sub always has the power. You're right about the good & wise part, though.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Don't misquote me! *swat* I said the sub always has the power. You're right about the good & wise part, though.

Yes and since I'm not on a power trip, I'm okay with that.

 

[impressive]

Yes and since I'm not on a power trip, I'm okay with that.

See, based on your thread title, though ... you could STILL be on a power trip and be okay with it.

In my personal lexicon, "top" is a position of power -- and "sub" is a position of power. "Dom(me)" and "bottom" -- again, to me -- are not. Mincing words, perhaps.

Hey, the Imptionary is fraught with potentially baffling material. Just nod and agree, and we'll get along just fine.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

It's not really a sexual thing; I think it's a personality thing. He is definitely more submissive than I am, and overwhelmed by responsibility. I think he really needs me to be strong for him. I'm capable of being a strong top, I think. I just don't understand much about into this sort of thing. Can anyone comment on the "submissive" personality and give me some insight into this situation?

I'm not sure any of this will help, Carson, but I'm going to ramble anyway.

I think sometimes people use the term D/s and/ or Top/ bottom interchangeably, and sometimes it's used to describe personality types, and sometimes it's used to describe sexual preference where power play is concerned. Being sexually dominant or submissive doesn't necessarily reflect your personality. And vice versa. But, it could. In many cases sex is a validation. People who are not, for whichever reason strong and dominant in their every day life (personal/ work/ family, etc) could have a need to take control sexually. Then again, people who are in charge of everything in their personal lives, could have a need to be able to give it all up and surrender.

In terms of a D/s emotional relationship (predominantly outside of the bedroom) I'm not sure how healthy and balanced that is. Personally, I want equality. And I want to know that if I should fall, or need absolute support, it will be there for me. I also want my partner to know that I'd give her the same. And then there's our natural, person to person dynamics of my strengths, and her's and my weaknesses and hers, and the basic, core interconnected, yet flexible foundation we build "us" on.

Sexually, I wouldn't know where to start, discussing this, because there are just so many layers and elements to it. It's a journey of self-discovery. And in a relationship, it's a journey of exploration, communication, trust, pushing boundaries, fantasy, reality and uniqueness.

I agree with Fem that much of it is hard to verbalise, because it has to do with feelings,and a "need" and something very basic and natural.

 

[Guest]

I'm not sure any of this will help, Carson, but I'm going to ramble anyway.

I think sometimes people use the term D/s and/ or Top/ bottom interchangeably, and sometimes it's used to describe personality types, and sometimes it's used to describe sexual preference where power play is concerned. Being sexually dominant or submissive doesn't necessarily reflect your personality. And vice versa. But, it could. In many cases sex is a validation. People who are not, for whichever reason strong and dominant in their every day life (personal/ work/ family, etc) could have a need to take control sexually. Then again, people who are in charge of everything in their personal lives, could have a need to be able to give it all up and surrender.

In terms of a D/s emotional relationship (predominantly outside of the bedroom) I'm not sure how healthy and balanced that is. Personally, I want equality. And I want to know that if I should fall, or need absolute support, it will be there for me. I also want my partner to know that I'd give her the same. And then there's our natural, person to person dynamics of my strengths, and her's and my weaknesses and hers, and the basic, core interconnected, yet flexible foundation we build "us" on.

Sexually, I wouldn't know where to start, discussing this, because there are just so many layers and elements to it. It's a journey of self-discovery. And in a relationship, it's a journey of exploration, communication, trust, pushing boundaries, fantasy, reality and uniqueness.

I agree with Fem that much of it is hard to verbalise, because it has to do with feelings,and a "need" and something very basic and natural.

just shut up and top me

 

[Nirvanadragones]

just shut up and top me

Stop thread-jacking!!

*spank*

 

[NoJo]

I think I've grown out of my submissive phase (during which I gave myself my sobriquet). I got it out of my system through various foul means a few years back.

I'm quite into rape right now, particulary date-rape, although of course it's not really date season yet.

 

[TxRad]

This is something i wrote a while back on the subject of who has the power....

Control

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think I've grown out of my submissive phase (during which I gave myself my sobriquet). I got it out of my system through various foul means a few years back.

I'm quite into rape right now, particulary date-rape, although of course it's not really date season yet.

Tried cabbages?

 

[NoJo]

Tried cabbages?

Yes, no good, I'm afraid