Utah Mine Disaster & Minnesota Bridge Failure…

[amicus]

The is modern mining and technique available that would lessen, if not eliminate entirely, the dangers involved in mining for coal and other minerals. Like the West Virginia coal mine incident of a few years ago, remotely operated robotic mining equipment could have prevented that disaster also. Although perhaps not quite on the scale of the building of the ’Chunnel’ from England to France, similar equipment could and should replace human miners.

Coal miner’s Unions, unions in general, and the Democrat party, that depends upon 90 percent of union votes, have prevented modernization of the industry and are directly responsible for the loss of life in such incidents.

Aiding and abetting this disgrace is the Federal Government, charged with inspecting mines and operating procedures and enforcing safety rules to protect lives. Over 300 violations since 2004 at the mine in Utah, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines for such things as, ‘no porta potty near a designated area’, disgraceful I am sure and of course the fines levied against the company simply passed on to the consumer as higher prices, the way a corrupt government works.

The Minnesota bridge, inspected by another Federal Agency over the years, declared ‘structurally deficient’, as are thousands of other bridges in the United States, permitted, (with those same fines) to continue to operate. A tragedy that should not and need not have occurred.

Looming on the horizon, a prediction if I may, is an air disaster just waiting to happen. Again involving union labor, Federal management and inspection and dangerous equipment and procedures permitted to continue. Yes, the Nations Airports and air traffic controllers. Working with outdated computers when they need a satellite system, outdated radar not nearly state of the art.

We tolerate a half century old system of interstate highways built during the Eisenhower era of the 1950’s. Another facet of the crumbling infrastructure of this once great nation.

I will add, for emphasis, a totally corrupt public education system, coast to coast, again with Unions involved, graft, corruption and waste rampant and beyond control producing an inferior product at best and no product in many cases.

Those who follow my posts and comprehend my thinking, consistent as always, know where this is going.

In each of the examples above, important aspects of our economy, our lively hood, our safety, our future and that of our children has been turned over to the unqualified management of government bureaucrats; (those officials of government that work by fixed routine without exercising intelligent judgment…{actual definition})

And you wonder why accidents and mishaps occur when in the hands of the incompetent, incapable and uncaring public employee, (use US Post office as example, note the winning competition of Fedex and UPS), you wonder why the infrastructure is failing?

I don’t. I know why.

Why not give freedom a chance?

Or is that a John Lennon thing or a Martin Luther King, thing, ding.


Amicus…

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Coal miner’s Unions, unions in general, and the Democrat party, that depends upon 90 percent of union votes, have prevented modernization of the industry and are directly responsible for the loss of life in such incidents.

Amicus…

What a load of fucking drivel...

 

[JamesSD]

So who do you propose pays for upgrading our infrastructure? Surely not the "overtaxed rich" or corporations?

Toll-roads and bridges then?

 

[amicus]

So who do you propose pays for upgrading our infrastructure? Surely not the "overtaxed rich" or corporations?

Toll-roads and bridges then?

~~~

Not an expert on this or anything, JamesSD, but I can read and research and think, so can you.

There are toll roads and toll bridges, I know, I paid my way across the Golden Gate and the one over the Columbia at Astoria, Oregon.

Roads and bridges are paid for now by user fees on fuel, gasoline and diesel, for the cars and trucks that 'use' the roadways and bridges, just as we pay a 'fuel premium' on airline tickets if the cost increases.

The essential point is that by eliminating Federal and State Bureaucracies and turning the infrastructure into a competitive bidding private contractor, to build and maintain those assets, you save money and get a better control.

You see, I am not ashamed to admit that I work for profit, I do not donate or contribute my skills for the good of all. I have discovered that people and corporations are more efficient and even happier if they are paid well for their work.

A bureaucrat is under no such incentive, they get paid according to scale regardless of the quality of their work and therein lies the tragic fault in government.

Roxanne provided an excellent example in the Great Northern railroad, a fascinating history, and even the Canadian rail system at its inception had to find ways to make the service pay. They created towns and imported labor and drew capital to finance agriculture and mining ventures.

Really, James, give freedom a chance, it has never had one, not really in the past hundred years or so.

Amicus...

 

[drksideofthemoon]

The essential point is that by eliminating Federal and State Bureaucracies and turning the infrastructure into a competitive bidding private contractor, to build and maintain those assets, you save money and get a better control.

Just who do you think builds highways? They are built by private contractors, who bid on the projects, and generally, the job goes to the lowest bidder.

At least on FHA projects, bonuses are paid for finishing the job early, and for superior work, and penalties are assessed for finishing late and an inferior project.

 

[emap]

The Post Office does work. They are not losing money to Fedex, UPS, DHL or any others that I did not mention. They are not the fastest but they are about the only ones used to mail letters and many boxes that you order online are shipped USPS, that is the Post Office.

The shipping companies are used for certain things where speed is important, like for instance, those steaks. they are also used for bulk items, like a piano, assuming you don't go to your local store and have them deliver it of course.

As for the mining, since you apparently don't know this little tidbit, a mining operation is run by a private company. They determine what is used in the mine at the time when machines are cheaper than people there will be no people in those mines, until then people are going to be in those mines unless the government says that mine is to dangerous for people. At which point it either becomes an open mine or they close the mine.

Not to say your wrong about how badly things are being run, your just wrong on most everything else.

 

[amicus]

Just who do you think builds highways? They are built by private contractors, who bid on the projects, and generally, the job goes to the lowest bidder.

At least on FHA projects, bonuses are paid for finishing the job early, and for superior work, and penalties are assessed for finishing late and an inferior project.

Yes, I know darkside, but I have an unfair advantage here, in that I sat in on hundreds of road department city and county meetings, reporting the bidding and the award of contract.

First of all, organized labor so controls the process, that it is required that the guy holding the caution flag be paid union wages, fifteen bucks an hour(when I was reporting), instead of a minimum wage unskilled bloke from the unemployment office.

Instead of a $22.50 an hour driver for a D-10 Cat, the Union operator gets $65.00 per hour.

And they still continue to 'featherbed' like a union fireman on a diesel locomotive, who sleeps his entire shift. Unions preserve jobs and high wages in that manner and since it is 'tax' money, and since quality of work is seldom a measure (your example noted), then you get bridges that fall down and roads that deteriorate.

There is also the matter of selecting the section of road or bridge to repair. I discovered, wrote about and published newspaper articles pointing out the 'political' nature of the selection process. A city councilman or a county commissioner often made the selections not according to the portion of roadway that needed work, but where the kickbacks were best.

Although now, twenty years later, I have forgotten much, I could give you hundreds of example of corruption, both within the unionized building trades and the offices of public officials.

You will no doubt come back and ask me to prove that private enterprise, private business is any different and I would argue that point with you. It is not the same because the company must make a profit to stay in business and the very nature of the market place competition dictates higher efficiency and higher quality product.

amicus

 

[SimpleGifts]

~~~

Not an expert on this or anything, JamesSD, but I can read and research and think, so can you.

There are toll roads and toll bridges, I know, I paid my way across the Golden Gate and the one over the Columbia at Astoria, Oregon.

Roads and bridges are paid for now by user fees on fuel, gasoline and diesel, for the cars and trucks that 'use' the roadways and bridges, just as we pay a 'fuel premium' on airline tickets if the cost increases.

The essential point is that by eliminating Federal and State Bureaucracies and turning the infrastructure into a competitive bidding private contractor, to build and maintain those assets, you save money and get a better control.

Just because your lack of expertise is an easy target and I'm in a mood, you might be interested to know that the toll you paid crossing the Golden Gate went to a GOVERNMENTAL entity and that it is NOT operated by a private firm. If you seriously think that trucking companies pay a "user fee" that is at all commensurate with the wear that their vehicles put on freeways, you clearly have never read the balance sheet of a highway authority or any other state or Federal agency that is responsible for road construction and maintenance. The interstate highway system is heavily cross-subsidized from other revenue sources (meaning, taxes not related to transportation) and it is skewed to benefit trucking and logistics firms, rather than private drivers like you and me.

Noting the number of private highways that have gone bankrupt, I find it hard to see how private enterprise is doing much better at managing infrastructure than most government agencies. Of course, you can blame those bankruptcies on government regulation if you wish...because if government is to blame for everything, it's easier than having to inspect the actual weak points of capitalism.

The field of economics developed the concept of a "public good" for a reason, and you can start by reading Garrett Hardin's "The Tragedy of the Commons" if you want to speak intelligently about thse topics. Milton Friedman was a smart guy, but he was far from infallible, and like Karl Marx was much better at interpreting economic history than predicting actual economic phenomena.

Oh, and if government is so evil, why not move to certain places in countries like, say, eastern Russia, where the rule of law and the power of regulation are given only lip service? After all, those places are clearly economic paradises compared to the U.S.

SG

 

[amicus]

The Post Office does work. They are not losing money to Fedex, UPS, DHL or any others that I did not mention. They are not the fastest but they are about the only ones used to mail letters and many boxes that you order online are shipped USPS, that is the Post Office.

The shipping companies are used for certain things where speed is important, like for instance, those steaks. they are also used for bulk items, like a piano, assuming you don't go to your local store and have them deliver it of course.

As for the mining, since you apparently don't know this little tidbit, a mining operation is run by a private company. They determine what is used in the mine at the time when machines are cheaper than people there will be no people in those mines, until then people are going to be in those mines unless the government says that mine is to dangerous for people. At which point it either becomes an open mine or they close the mine.

Not to say your wrong about how badly things are being run, your just wrong on most everything else.

~~~

Emap...don't recognize your SN, but I guess you can get in my face, everybody does. Do you have any idea how hard I work to be 'wrong' everytime on everything else? I mean, sometimes I make a mistake and get something right, I will try not to in the future.

The US Post Office is a joke, always has been. Inefficient, uneconomical and, from the suicide rate, one of the worst jobs in the world to work at.

Sighs, and the mining industry. Just like the auto workers union broke the back of the American automobile and steel industry, the coal workers union has prevented the companies who own the mines from replacing workers with machines. Everyone knows that and usually praise the unions for saving jobs.

egads, emap...


amicus...

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE= you might be interested to know that the toll you paid crossing the Golden Gate went to a GOVERNMENTAL entity and that it is NOT operated by a private firm. If you seriously think that trucking companies pay a "user fee" that is at all commensurate with the wear that their vehicles put on freeways, you clearly have never read the balance sheet of a highway authority or any other state or Federal agency that is responsible for road construction and maintenance. The interstate highway system is heavily cross-subsidized from other revenue sources (meaning, taxes not related to transportation) and it is skewed to benefit trucking and logistics firms, rather than private drivers like you and me.

Noting the number of private highways that have gone bankrupt, I find it hard to see how private enterprise is doing much better at managing infrastructure than most government agencies. Of course, you can blame those bankruptcies on government regulation if you wish...because if government is to blame for everything, it's easier than having to inspect the actual weak points of capitalism.

The field of economics developed the concept of a "public good" for a reason, and you can start by reading Garrett Hardin's "The Tragedy of the Commons" if you want to speak intelligently about thse topics. Milton Friedman was a smart guy, but he was far from infallible, and like Karl Marx was much better at interpreting economic history than predicting actual economic phenomena.

Oh, and if government is so evil, why not move to certain places in countries like, say, eastern Russia, where the rule of law and the power of regulation are given only lip service? After all, those places are clearly economic paradises compared to the U.S.

SG[/QUOTE]


~~~

Oh, my, another progressive Liberal sacrificed on the altar of Amicus, another little between meal snack.

You got your history backasswards, 'sweetheart'(Bogart voice), When Europeans fled feudal and Mercantilist Europe, the King owned all the land and the roads and the deer, the mushrooms and the escargot.

We ebullient colonists threw off the yoke of church and state and oppressive government and set forth to discover individual human freedom and free choice in all aspects of our lives.

We had to fight like hell, all the former movers and shakers of Europe to establish our own definition of a free market place and a free society. Took some doing, and some things came later than others, but as I said, you got it backwards.

Now, you have a right, even a guaranteed one in this country, to believe anything you want and spout it endlessly if you wish. If you believe the the 'public good', must be served by violating the individual rights of men and property owners, fine, do so, but permit me to disagree; it too, is my right, like it or not.

Freidman was a 'Monetorist', I prefer either Adam Smith or Ludwig Von Mises, or a dozen other 'true' free market economists.

"...Just because your lack of expertise is an easy target and I'm in a mood, ..."

Your mood notwithstanding, perhaps you can claim expertise in all things, I cannot, even as a logical equation, there simply isn't enough time in an entire life to, 'know' everything as you imply you do.

I am an individual and while I agree with the Constitution and the Bill of rights, and grant the government the enumerated right to raise and administer an army, to create and maintain a court system and a police power to protect my also enumerated rights, I do not grant government any power beyond that.

Be it roads, bridges, schools or a space program. These things are not the province of government, but of the people.

And if you want socialism, move your sweet ass back to England, or from whence you came and leave us to pursue of life, liberty and happiness.

Thank you...


Amicus

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Yes, I know darkside, but I have an unfair advantage here, in that I sat in on hundreds of road department city and county meetings, reporting the bidding and the award of contract.

First of all, organized labor so controls the process, that it is required that the guy holding the caution flag be paid union wages, fifteen bucks an hour(when I was reporting), instead of a minimum wage unskilled bloke from the unemployment office.

Instead of a $22.50 an hour driver for a D-10 Cat, the Union operator gets $65.00 per hour.

And they still continue to 'featherbed' like a union fireman on a diesel locomotive, who sleeps his entire shift. Unions preserve jobs and high wages in that manner and since it is 'tax' money, and since quality of work is seldom a measure (your example noted), then you get bridges that fall down and roads that deteriorate.

There is also the matter of selecting the section of road or bridge to repair. I discovered, wrote about and published newspaper articles pointing out the 'political' nature of the selection process. A city councilman or a county commissioner often made the selections not according to the portion of roadway that needed work, but where the kickbacks were best.

Although now, twenty years later, I have forgotten much, I could give you hundreds of example of corruption, both within the unionized building trades and the offices of public officials.

You will no doubt come back and ask me to prove that private enterprise, private business is any different and I would argue that point with you. It is not the same because the company must make a profit to stay in business and the very nature of the market place competition dictates higher efficiency and higher quality product.

amicus

Odd, I worked for a contractor, and we weren't union. We did FHA projects, and State of Wyoming projects. Both sets of contracts required that prevailing wages were to be paid. I think of the FHA projects it was the Bacon-Davis act. The state projects paid slightly higher wages than the federal projects.

You have no idea how many unskilled blokes from the unemployment office couldn't hack the physical strain that a flagger goes through on a twelve or fourteen hour day. I did it for part of a summer, it's a grueling job.

We took a lot of pride in the job we did.

I also worked for the railway (communications division). No one sleeps on the job. It's one of the things you can get fired for on the railway and where the Union won't support you, the other being drunk/drinking on the job. Believe me, if the railway is paying you, you had better be awake.

You seem to take great joy in slamming the average working person. What is that you do? Oh yes, you run your mouth. And you're useful to this country in what capacity?

 

[SimpleGifts]

Your inability to use BBcode properly notwithstanding, you do an excellent job of displaying your utter ignorance of any complex topic without additional facilitation. But just for the amusement of the peanut gallery...

Oh, my, another progressive Liberal sacrificed on the altar of Amicus, another little between meal snack.

Liberal is a political label; I was speaking in terms of economics. You probably could have stretched your mind a bit and called me a Keynesian, but that's not entirely accurate because the theory of a "public good" is neither Keynesian or monetarist.

You got your history backasswards, 'sweetheart'(Bogart voice), When Europeans fled feudal and Mercantilist Europe, the King owned all the land and the roads and the deer, the mushrooms and the escargot.

{Further rubbish edited for space}

It's a well-worn trick of rhetoric to bring up irrelevant facts when you have no counter-argument to your opponent's assertions. Since I didn't actual cite any economic history, but merely pointed out that Karl Marx was an economic historian, and since I didn't mention any kind of chronology, your twisted revisionist and romanticized interpretation of American economic history is, while delightful delusional, not persuasive.

Now, you have a right, even a guaranteed one in this country, to believe anything you want and spout it endlessly if you wish. If you believe the the 'public good', must be served by violating the individual rights of men and property owners, fine, do so, but permit me to disagree; it too, is my right, like it or not.

Freidman was a 'Monetorist', I prefer either Adam Smith or Ludwig Von Mises, or a dozen other 'true' free market economists.

I didn't say anything about "THE" public good. I was talking about infrastructure as A public good. The only way a bridge like the Golden Gate could function as a true free market enterprise is if there were competition, and I don't see anyone volunteering to build another one parallel to the existing one to bring toll prices down. It's also called a natural monopoly and it's a well-accepted economic principle. Oh, and Adam Smith wasn't actually an economist, although like Karl Marx he was a very perceptive observer of SOME dynamics of economic activity.

Your mood notwithstanding, perhaps you can claim expertise in all things, I cannot, even as a logical equation, there simply isn't enough time in an entire life to, 'know' everything as you imply you do.

I don't imply any such thing. I didn't claim to have any expertise at all. In contrast, you admitted that you are an expert on nothing at all. As you told JamesSD, you are "Not an expert on this or anything..." Your habit of misinterpreting a person's statements, and then misquoting that person to back up your misinterpretation, is sloppy at best and an act of desperation at worst.

I am an individual and while I agree with the Constitution and the Bill of rights, and grant the government the enumerated right to raise and administer an army, to create and maintain a court system and a police power to protect my also enumerated rights, I do not grant government any power beyond that.

Be it roads, bridges, schools or a space program. These things are not the province of government, but of the people.

Good thing we live in a democracy rather than your apparent preferred political system, which I take to be a benevolent dictatorship. Since you know better than the voters what government should and should not do, why not simply become Leninist? It would really cut down on the hypocrisy you display.

And if you want socialism, move your sweet ass back to England, or from whence you came and leave us to pursue of life, liberty and happiness.

I didn't make any argument in favor of socialism of any kind. I was pointing out that a purely free market approach is an inefficient and infeasible way to build and maintain bridges. While it would be nice to make suppositions about how economies work and then claim that they are Natural Law, most of us actually prefer to base our analysis on data. Of course, that would require a scientific analysis, and your Creationist version of economic theory (God created the free market, and it was Good) is based on faith and not reason.

Oh, and you have no idea where I'm from, and you are lucky that the country that elected Margaret Thatcher doesn't care whether or not you denigrate their political economy. And the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is from the Declaration of Independence and so while it's beautiful prose, it's not in fact the basis of any law of the United States.

Thank you...

Amicus

No, really, thank YOU.

SG

 

[amicus]

Hell, I may as well assault your gender also, round things out here. Like a typical woman who says, 'maybe, I dunno, we'll...( ad nauseum) we have learned that Simple Gifts is not a marxist or a liberal, or a keynsian, or any thing in specific that one can pin down...so damned typical of the left, at least in this country, attack everything, defend nothing, must have been adherents to Mao, or that other Chinese fella, Sun Yat something or other and the art of war...fight, fight, talk, talk...

Since you believe that free people cannot accomplish 'public works', i.e., an infrastructure without compulsory direction and management and funding, who am I to argue with you?

Browsed the 'college thread', last night, not sure if you posted or not, but there are some very smart, intelligent, well educated people here and in general that is a very good thing. Unfortunately they resemble the absent minded professor type, that scratched his pancake and poured syrup down his back, rather widely focused and impractical.

The modern progressive socialists,as Hillary claims to be, with their superior intellect and sensitivity, are so damned sure they are right in all things that they feel eminently justified to force the rest of the less intelligent population bow to their will.

I object to that.

Your continual attack against my character, style and methodology does nothing to hide the fact that you stand for nothing, that you respect enough to defend.

Your only forte' is to attack and demean efforts to exercise freedom through the mutual, unforced exchange of goods and services among people. Like all collectivists/statists. you feel you could live our lives, and make our choices much better than we can.

You can't of course, but your altruistic, Messianic concern for the proletariat isn't even sticky sweet but disgusting.

Yes, I know, you will now say that you are not an altruist, or a Christian, along with 'not' being anything at all but a critic of life who does not participate.

Such a deal.

amicus...

 

[SimpleGifts]

The modern progressive socialists,as Hillary claims to be, with their superior intellect and sensitivity, are so damned sure they are right in all things that they feel eminently justified to force the rest of the less intelligent population bow to their will.

I object to that.

Your continual attack against my character, style and methodology does nothing to hide the fact that you stand for nothing, that you respect enough to defend.

Your only forte' is to attack and demean efforts to exercise freedom through the mutual, unforced exchange of goods and services among people. Like all collectivists/statists. you feel you could live our lives, and make our choices much better than we can.

The only thing I'm defending is a scientific approach to solving complex economic problems. Would that life were so simply that you could build economies by quoting Scripture or some other form of faith-based edict, but apparently you are hellbent on making the same mistakes that the Taliban made. Sheesh, and you call yourself a devout Muslim. Shame on you.

I'm also not attacking anyone's stupidity but your own. I've had very constructive, reasoned arguments with people who have the same beliefs as you...the difference being that unlike you, they can actually construct a coherent argument in their favor. That's not a matter of style, that's a matter of demonstrating the actual power of human intelligence.

And your attempts to assert that your views reflect "the free market" are clearly little more than a thinly-veiled attempt for you to spout your holier-than-thou rhetoric that, as pointed out earlier, devalues the abilities and accomplishments of actual productive members of society. So, you fail to believe in the same political and economic forces that you claim are being suppressed by this big, scary "government" thing that, believe it or not, is actually composed of REAL PEOPLE, many of whom were elected through a democratic process. Thus, it's not surprising that you can only resort to a laughable attempt at "guilt by association" by raising hue and cry about Hillary Clinton, which is all the more ridiculous since everything I've stated is recognized as valid economic theory by conservatives and liberals alike.

It would be one thing if you actually showed faith in the power of Smith's "invisible hand," but since your worldview has failed to win in the marketplace of ideas, it would behoove you to liquidate what little intellectual capital you have remaining so that it can be invested better elsewhere.

SG

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE=SimpleGifts]The only thing I'm defending is a scientific approach to solving complex economic problems. Would that life were so simply that you could build economies by quoting Scripture or some other form of faith-based edict, but apparently you are hellbent on making the same mistakes that the Taliban made. Sheesh, and you call yourself a devout Muslim. Shame on you.

I'm also not attacking anyone's stupidity but your own. I've had very constructive, reasoned arguments with people who have the same beliefs as you...the difference being that unlike you, they can actually construct a coherent argument in their favor. That's not a matter of style, that's a matter of demonstrating the actual power of human intelligence.

And your attempts to assert that your views reflect "the free market" are clearly little more than a thinly-veiled attempt for you to spout your holier-than-thou rhetoric that, as pointed out earlier, devalues the abilities and accomplishments of actual productive members of society. So, you fail to believe in the same political and economic forces that you claim are being suppressed by this big, scary "government" thing that, believe it or not, is actually composed of REAL PEOPLE, many of whom were elected through a democratic process. Thus, it's not surprising that you can only resort to a laughable attempt at "guilt by association" by raising hue and cry about Hillary Clinton, which is all the more ridiculous since everything I've stated is recognized as valid economic theory by conservatives and liberals alike.

It would be one thing if you actually showed faith in the power of Smith's "invisible hand," but since your worldview has failed to win in the marketplace of ideas, it would behoove you to liquidate what little intellectual capital you have remaining so that it can be invested better elsewhere.

SG[/QUOTE]

~~~

There is most likely no point in continuing this as you will continue to insult, for lack of a better means of attack, but I detest allowing you the last words with your continued superior attitude and platitudes. (I enjoy playing with words as I eviscerate my opponents, a fault, I know)

"...=SimpleGifts]The only thing I'm defending is a scientific approach to solving complex economic problems..."

Well, at least you made a statement of 'belief' in scientific method, fantastic.

Scientific method is quite something to defend; research in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, an hypothesis is formulated and empirically tested.

That same method perfected the gas chambers in Germany and the Gulags in the Soviet Union.

"...big, scary "government" thing that, believe it or not, is actually composed of REAL PEOPLE,..."

Yes, real people who function without using intellect or rational exercise of the mind. Government people follow rules and regulations and carry out their duties, regardless of the nature of those rules; they can order someone to save a life, or commit an abortion, without a rational thought involved and without concern for ethics or morality.

'Government' possesses no intrinsic knowledge or expertise about anything. If there is thinking to be done, they hire it done, with confiscated monies.

Individuals are real people too, the form business relationships and even corporate entities to accomplish their chosen goals. The difference is, they do it as a choice and they do it to earn a living by producing goods and services desired by others and they do it for a profit, that filthy word of the Statists.

The examples I used, a bridge failure and mine accident reflect the inability of government to even regulate effectively those industries they oppress.

Your 'scientific method' has a tragic flaw, as I illustrated; so does your economic philosophy. I do not expect you to admit or even acknowledge it, but bluster back in an insulting manner as you have thus far in this discussion.

So, I ask you once again, why not share the source of your superior knowledge and expertise? Tell us how you justify the use of force to corrupt the live of the individual for the greater good? We would all like to know.

Amicus the American (and proud of it)

 

[Seattle Zack]

Cost of Iraq "War," to date: $449,000,000,000

Cost to repair U.S. bridge infrastructure nationwide: $188,000,000,000

 

[amicus]

Cost of Iraq "War," to date: $449,000,000,000

Cost to repair U.S. bridge infrastructure nationwide: $188,000,000,000

~~~

Ah, thas really cute Zack. Take a long time to think of and search did it?

I don't know what the equivalent dollars would be today for the Liberation of Paris or Brussels, or Rome for that matter, or Manila in the Philippines.

And the cost is high to free an oppressed people and as with Europe, gratitude is seldom expressed for the sacrifices and suffering given to achieve their freedom.

I have mentioned before the acres and acres of white crosses marking the graves of American soldiers in France; it was a high price for them, the ultimate one.

It has been over a half century since world war two and Korea; it may be as long for the people in the middle east to realize human freedom but it will inevitably happen, human freedom will not be denied; I guarantee it.

Amicus...

 

[SimpleGifts]

"...=SimpleGifts]The only thing I'm defending is a scientific approach to solving complex economic problems..."

Well, at least you made a statement of 'belief' in scientific method, fantastic.

Scientific method is quite something to defend; research in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, an hypothesis is formulated and empirically tested.

That same method perfected the gas chambers in Germany and the Gulags in the Soviet Union.

Woohoo! We have a winner! Amicus once again confirms Godwin's Law:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law)

Although this occurred much sooner than on most Internet discussions...I suppose it just means you ran out of ammunition faster than anyone else I've met. Then again, you've been mostly shooting blanks for this entire thread.

Again, your lack of creativity in argument is almost astounding. After all, if you can say that someone believes in the same thing that some of the Nazis believed in, that makes them terrible, right?

By the way, the "will of the people" is what brought Hitler to power and enabled him to incite the populace with the burning of the Reichstag...thus invalidating all of your belief in the power of individual free will to generate anything good in this world. Once again, your own argument only undermines exactly what you have been claiming all along. Doesn't it suck when you are your own worst enemy?

Your 'scientific method' has a tragic flaw, as I illustrated; so does your economic philosophy. I do not expect you to admit or even acknowledge it, but bluster back in an insulting manner as you have thus far in this discussion.

Sorry, I don't consider it an insult to point out another person's inability to assemble a rational argument, especially when he insists on exposing himself repeatedly to the same critique. I am merely confirming that person's fundamental inability to learn. Of course, rational debate was a method developed by philosophers such as Socrates, as part of a train of thought which led us directly to logical positivism which is the basis of scientific inquiry, so again you employ a method of argument that gave us Auschwitz. Why can't you have the courage of your convictions and register yourself as a member of the American Fascist Party?

SG

 

[Lauren Hynde]

As usual, amicus is missing the true point, and that is: Gravity Hates America.

 

[amicus]

Woohoo! We have a winner! Amicus once again confirms Godwin's Law:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law)

Although this occurred much sooner than on most Internet discussions...I suppose it just means you ran out of ammunition faster than anyone else I've met. Then again, you've been mostly shooting blanks for this entire thread.

Again, your lack of creativity in argument is almost astounding. After all, if you can say that someone believes in the same thing that some of the Nazis believed in, that makes them terrible, right?

By the way, the "will of the people" is what brought Hitler to power and enabled him to incite the populace with the burning of the Reichstag...thus invalidating all of your belief in the power of individual free will to generate anything good in this world. Once again, your own argument only undermines exactly what you have been claiming all along. Doesn't it suck when you are your own worst enemy?

Sorry, I don't consider it an insult to point out another person's inability to assemble a rational argument, especially when he insists on exposing himself repeatedly to the same critique. I am merely confirming that person's fundamental inability to learn. Of course, rational debate was a method developed by philosophers such as Socrates, as part of a train of thought which led us directly to logical positivism which is the basis of scientific inquiry, so again you employ a method of argument that gave us Auschwitz. Why can't you have the courage of your convictions and register yourself as a member of the American Fascist Party?

SG

~~~


"...Of course, rational debate was a method developed by philosophers such as Socrates, as part of a train of thought which led us directly to logical positivism which is the basis of scientific inquiry, ..."

A rather nice example of how a 'little' education, is more a danger than a boon.

"Only three brief periods of human history were dominated by a culture of reason: Ancient Greece, the Renaissance, the nineteenth century. These three periods were the source of mankind's greatest progress in all fields of intellectual achievements--and the eras of greatest political freedom.

The industrial revolution, the United States of America and the political-economic system of capitalism were the product and the result of the intellectual liberation achieved by the Renaissance and of a predominately Aristotelian philosophical influence, which lasted, in spite of a Platonist (read Socratic) counter revolution, through the centuries known as the Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment."

So all your blustering and name calling, about all you do, merely exposed not only your ignorance, but your inability to even think in rational terms.

No one gives a shit about what you believe in, or how you were brainwashed in high school or college. If you ever begin to actually think, call me, we can have a coffee, you pay.

Popper, and Ayer are to Logical Positivism what Oscar Wilde was to homosexuals, I am one, you can be too! ...logical positivism, Marxism, and Existentialism, all birds of the same feather, sleep with pigs...uh, well, you know...



Amicus...

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

The other week I was happily dancing with a client, she's a couple or three years younger than me and has been in the grip of pre-senile dementia for many years, dancing is one of her joys. Not ballroom or jive or anything really, just moving the feet to the sound of the music.

As far as we are aware she cannot understand complex patterns, like long sentences or board games. Her husband that brings her and takes her home thanks us each and every day for our 'effort'. Very very occasionally she is lucid for seconds at a time and sometimes gets angry.

Personally I think the anger (which I've witnessed in other cases) is occasioned mostly by frustration.

On this day she suddenly said to another staff "I'm going away." Not a topic that has ever been broached before. Then she went on her merry way into the usual nonsense and gibberish which she is most known for.

The next week she was moved from the family home into a specialised long term care unit.

We get paid for what we do. No amount of money, particularly our union negotiated slightly above minimum, can compensate us for this.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Just because your lack of expertise is an easy target and I'm in a mood, you might be interested to know that the toll you paid crossing the Golden Gate went to a GOVERNMENTAL entity and that it is NOT operated by a private firm. If you seriously think that trucking companies pay a "user fee" that is at all commensurate with the wear that their vehicles put on freeways, you clearly have never read the balance sheet of a highway authority or any other state or Federal agency that is responsible for road construction and maintenance.

Game.

Noting the number of private highways that have gone bankrupt,

Set.

The field of economics developed the concept of a "public good" for a reason, and you can start by reading Garrett Hardin's "The Tragedy of the Commons" if you want to speak intelligently about thse topics. Milton Friedman was a smart guy, but he was far from infallible, and like Karl Marx was much better at interpreting economic history than predicting actual economic phenomena.

Match.

Oh, and if government is so evil, why not move to certain places in countries like, say, eastern Russia, where the rule of law and the power of regulation are given only lip service? After all, those places are clearly economic paradises compared to the U.S.

Not Russia. Somalia.

Otherwise, tournament.

 

[amicus]

Clever...and amusing...when a combatant claims victory, picks up her panties and limps homeward after being fully reamed, claiming, "I won, I won, I won."

Sure, sweetie, sure...


Amicus...

 

[SimpleGifts]

"Only three brief periods of human history were dominated by a culture of reason: Ancient Greece, the Renaissance, the nineteenth century. These three periods were the source of mankind's greatest progress in all fields of intellectual achievements--and the eras of greatest political freedom.

The industrial revolution, the United States of America and the political-economic system of capitalism were the product and the result of the intellectual liberation achieved by the Renaissance and of a predominately Aristotelian philosophical influence, which lasted, in spite of a Platonist (read Socratic) counter revolution, through the centuries known as the Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment."

Exactly my point, if you bothered to read your own citation instead of cutting-and-pasting as a tactic to make yourself sound like you actually comprehend things that you happened to have skimmed in your prep school days. You're engaged in a Socratic dialogue, although you are so oblivious that you haven't even noticed that you've gotten yourself into one. And the "Age of Reason" and "Age of Enlightenment" are what gave us the scientific method, which as you pointed out gave us the Holocaust and so therefore, you are arguing that the Industrial Revolution, the United States of America, and the political-economic system of capitalism are all byproducts of the Nazi state. After all, they all slept with the same pigs. If you hate this country so much, why haven't you renounced your citizenship by now? Leave us true patriots be.

If you are going to use words to eviscerate someone, take a lesson from Dan Quayle...learn to wield your weapon so that it's not actually pointing at YOU.

Hoist on your own petard, I believe is the phrase.

And as an aside, thank you to Loving Tongue--Somalia is a much better illustration of the situation I had in mind. I stand corrected.

SG

P.S. Apologies to the peanut crowd, as I shouldn't take so much pleasure from shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[amicus]

Exactly my point, if you bothered to read your own citation instead of cutting-and-pasting as a tactic to make yourself sound like you actually comprehend things that you happened to have skimmed in your prep school days. You're engaged in a Socratic dialogue, although you are so oblivious that you haven't even noticed that you've gotten yourself into one. And the "Age of Reason" and "Age of Enlightenment" are what gave us the scientific method, which as you pointed out gave us the Holocaust and so therefore, you are arguing that the Industrial Revolution, the United States of America, and the political-economic system of capitalism are all byproducts of the Nazi state. After all, they all slept with the same pigs. If you hate this country so much, why haven't you renounced your citizenship by now? Leave us true patriots be.

If you are going to use words to eviscerate someone, take a lesson from Dan Quayle...learn to wield your weapon so that it's not actually pointing at YOU.

Hoist on your own petard, I believe is the phrase.

And as an aside, thank you to Loving Tongue--Somalia is a much better illustration of the situation I had in mind. I stand corrected.

SG

P.S. Apologies to the peanut crowd, as I shouldn't take so much pleasure from shooting fish in a barrel.

~~~


The is the original post that got you all hot and bothered, dearie:

Utah Mine Disaster & Minnesota Bridge Failure…

There is modern mining and technique available that would lessen, if not eliminate entirely, the dangers involved in mining for coal and other minerals. Like the West Virginia coal mine incident of a few years ago, remotely operated robotic mining equipment could have prevented that disaster also. Although perhaps not quite on the scale of the building of the ’Chunnel’ from England to France, similar equipment could and should replace human miners.

Coal miner’s Unions, unions in general, and the Democrat party, that depends upon 90 percent of union votes, have prevented modernization of the industry and are directly responsible for the loss of life in such incidents.

Aiding and abetting this disgrace is the Federal Government, charged with inspecting mines and operating procedures and enforcing safety rules to protect lives. Over 300 violations since 2004 at the mine in Utah, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines for such things as, ‘no porta potty near a designated area’, disgraceful I am sure and of course the fines levied against the company simply passed on to the consumer as higher prices, the way a corrupt government works.

The Minnesota bridge, inspected by another Federal Agency over the years, declared ‘structurally deficient’, as are thousands of other bridges in the United States, permitted, (with those same fines) to continue to operate. A tragedy that should not and need not have occurred.

Looming on the horizon, a prediction if I may, is an air disaster just waiting to happen. Again involving union labor, Federal management and inspection and dangerous equipment and procedures permitted to continue. Yes, the Nations Airports and air traffic controllers. Working with outdated computers when they need a satellite system, outdated radar not nearly state of the art.

We tolerate a half century old system of interstate highways built during the Eisenhower era of the 1950’s. Another facet of the crumbling infrastructure of this once great nation.

I will add, for emphasis, a totally corrupt public education system, coast to coast, again with Unions involved, graft, corruption and waste rampant and beyond control producing an inferior product at best and no product in many cases.

Those who follow my posts and comprehend my thinking, consistent as always, know where this is going.

In each of the examples above, important aspects of our economy, our lively hood, our safety, our future and that of our children has been turned over to the unqualified management of government bureaucrats; (those officials of government that work by fixed routine without exercising intelligent judgment…{actual definition})

And you wonder why accidents and mishaps occur when in the hands of the incompetent, incapable and uncaring public employee, (use US Post office as example, note the winning competition of Fedex and UPS), you wonder why the infrastructure is failing?

I don’t. I know why.

Why not give freedom a chance?

Or is that a John Lennon thing or a Martin Luther King, thing, ding.


Amicus…

~~~

"...P.S. Apologies to the peanut crowd, as I shouldn't take so much pleasure from shooting fish in a barrel.[/QUOTE][/I]..."

Well, the 'peanut crowd' as you refer to them, have concluded the same thing I have...namely that you have only attacked and criticized a free market economy and Capitalism in general and presented, as I have pointed out before, nothing as an alternative.

You express, in almost the same terms used a generation ago, what Ludwig Von Mises defined as "The Anti Capitalist Mentality", and I might add, Ayn Rand, in "The Anti Industrial Revolution", and "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal".

A continual crying and whining about the 'good old days', in pre industrial Europe, with a rigid class structure and the sophisticated intellectuals living off the masses while demeaning them. Part of that has not changed, you are still snobs and parasites.

Your silver-tongued feminine wittinesses notwithstanding, you have yet to define an economic system of which you approve and support and continue only to criticize. Which I meet, your criticisms, time and time again and point out your continued willingness to advocate a system of slavery and command economics without ever providing or justifying your moral and ethical imperatives.

The 'Peanut Gallery', knows that and wonders just how long I have the patience to remind you when you shoot yourself in the foot time and time again.

"Few Americans are fully aware of the fact that their country enjoys the highest standard of living and that the way of life of the average American appears as fabulous and out of reach to the immense majority of people living in non-capitalist countries." (Ludwig Von Mises, page four, "The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality")

You are green-eyed jealous and infuriated that the brash Colonists formed a free country and outstripped feudal Europe in every possible way and then bailed your sorry asses out of Nazism and Communism and fed and protected you while we were doing it.

And they did it by instituting a laissez-faire capitalism while restraining the oppressive nature of religion and government and monarchies.

Tough titty, kitty, live with it; you ain't seen nuthin' yet!

Amicus...