Use of Foreign Language in poetry

[normal jean]

OKay, this is sort of a spring off thing. I read a comment BJ left on Risia's poem, somehow that led to talk of foreign language in a poem.

What I am curious about is-

The foreign language is foreign, right? and you want to incorporate something into your poem that adds a flavor to it, not write the entire poem in let's say, Spanish, but do as Angeline did in her Amante poems.

I am going to post one of mine and add the translations to it.

Anyone who has any suggestions may tear into it. I wasn't totally sure of my use of the language, but had someone proof it and he said it was "okay". But would have been better if the whole thing was in Spanish. I disagree with that.


~~

off course


¿ adónde Senorita ? ( where are you going, Miss?)

Is not your waiting home somewhere
West of here, closer to
the setting sun? In the land
of mango, cayenne, Yucatan?

si le no pierden ( if you are not lost)

Orange and black are welcome
upon my blossoming dahlia
though out of place
as a cactus in my window sill.

¿ por qué está usted aquí ? ( what are you doing, here?)

I wish there were more room upon
your fragile, fluttering wings.
An orange seat adequate enough
for the pale and settled likes of me.

 

[Liar]

Question: I assume that it is not accompained by translations in it's final form. How do you wish it to be read and how do you assume it will be read? Differently for thosewho know Spanish and those who don´t? If you read the lines and understand them, they are dense with information and adds perspective to the poem. If not, they are ...well...flair, and flair alone. Which is not a bad thing in itself, but it's quite a difference.

 

[normal jean]

Question: I assume that it is not accompained by translations in it's final form. How do you wish it to be read and how do you assume it will be read? Differently for those who know Spanish and those who don´t? If you read the lines and understand them, they are dense with information and adds perspective to the poem. If not, they are ...well...flair, and flair alone. Which is not a bad thing in itself, but it's quite a difference.

The version I posted did not have translations. It is experimental for me. But what I wanted was for the poem to be read as one person in a sort of conversation with a Monarch butterfly.

I do not know all the terms I need to know, so forgive me if I seem stupid.

I know it well enough to get the syllable count the way I wanted. Usually I don;t pay as much attention to specific count, but here I had to.

the line Si le no pierden is a match

for orange and black are welcome

and it rhymes ( to the extent I wanted it to).

As an answer to what you pose, I guess I had no real expectations. If I had thought about it, I would have realized that maybe not as many people speak spanish elsewhere as they do here as of late. I am trying to learn it and know enough to get by.

I would LIKE to think that someone would read it and be curious enough to look the words up, but poetry is expected to be instant gratification. Mostly, I didn't really expect anything, but what I was hoping for when I posted it was suggestions how to make it better.

I do try different things.... doesn't always mean they work. And you know I loved my garden. It's been kinda hard to write garden poetry lately.

thanks for the ideas. I see what you meant. If the reader doesn't understand them, then the poem is "lost" In your opinion, if I submit this anywhere, should I leave the translations in?

Or dispense with them altogether.

Maybe just write the poem in all English? I think that would ruin the poem ( as I initially wanted it to be).

 

[annaswirls]

It is a lovely poem, and more on that later -- but as far as the use of language in a poem, I think that it can add, not just flair, but flavor, meaning, context to a poem. Often times it does not matter if you do not know the literal meaning of the words if the meaning can be gleaned from the surrounding text or the mood of the poem.

there are also phrases that are within the more "universal" language that you might consider using to make it more accessible to those unfamiliar with the language.

I wish I knew more Spanish. As far as the three phrases used, I could have been able to tell what the first and third meant without the translation.

 

[annaswirls]

The cub scouts had to come up with their den rules. When my 6 year old got home, he thought of a few more while doing tricks in the kitchen.


"Speak the right language to the right people"
which I, of course, extended to have deep, profound meaning beyond his experience in a bilingual school.

he also added later
"wear contacts or glasses if you cannot see"

I think these are two great rules to live by:

Communicate in a way that you can be understood.
If you have needs or limitations, do what you have to do to take care of them.

I am thinking of having Eve cross stitch these words to live by on a baby quilt.

 

[normal jean]

The cub scouts had to come up with their den rules. When my 6 year old got home, he thought of a few more while doing tricks in the kitchen.


"Speak the right language to the right people"
which I, of course, extended to have deep, profound meaning beyond his experience in a bilingual school.

he also added later
"wear contacts or glasses if you cannot see"

I think these are two great rules to live by:

Communicate in a way that you can be understood.
If you have needs or limitations, do what you have to do to take care of them.

I am thinking of having Eve cross stitch these words to live by on a baby quilt.

Your son seems to have inherited a ton of your patience and wisdom. You are a lucky woman

Hopefully someday, I will be able to communicate those things in other languages.

I had Latin, French and Spanish in HS, but dont remember much French only because I had no one to speak it with. And the Spanish,well, I learn it daily, from labels on store merchandise, hearing it spoken, from Telemundo! and whenever I see a publication in a restaurant, like apartments for rent or just adverts, I take one, and read it, it really isnt that hard...

but was it an appropriate choice for my poem? Yes, because it is what I wanted to do, but then, NO because it caused readers to say, huh? or just back click.


Angeline, how did you decide what to use in yours? and did you need proofing? if so, who did it...

just wondering

~~~

Anna- your son's rule about -- "speak the right language to the right people"... I he is already very wise

I know so many people, TOO many people, here in SC that have the opinion that if someone cant speak English, they have no right....blah blah blah.


Some of the schools in our district are implementing a new program for pre-K up to 3rd grade( I think) and each school offers immersion classes in the foreign language for half the day, the other half is taught in English. They offer French, Spanish and Japanese, just depends which school you attend.

So far, and I saw this on the news last night, the schools whose pupils have the foreign language/english classes do remarkably better on standardized tests and they actually enjoy i t.


I personally believe that new cultures offer us so much. I think it would be a good thing if people could communicate, regardless of the politics of which language is or is not spoken.


I think i t shows immense empathy that you son already recognizes the need for everyone to be heard and recognized, regardless of their native language. You' ve done good, Ms Swirly

 

[Liar]

thanks for the ideas. I see what you meant. If the reader doesn't understand them, then the poem is "lost" In your opinion, if I submit this anywhere, should I leave the translations in?

Or dispense with them altogether.

Maybe just write the poem in all English? I think that would ruin the poem ( as I initially wanted it to be).

I have no good answer to that. I wouldn't say that the poem is lost if the reader don't know Spanish or not enough to fully understand those lines. Merely a different poetic experience. One more variable open for intepretation. But isn't poetry a lot about reader intepretation anyway?

 

[Angeline]

Your son seems to have inherited a ton of your patience and wisdom. You are a lucky woman

Hopefully someday, I will be able to communicate those things in other languages.

I had Latin, French and Spanish in HS, but dont remember much French only because I had no one to speak it with. And the Spanish,well, I learn it daily, from labels on store merchandise, hearing it spoken, from Telemundo! and whenever I see a publication in a restaurant, like apartments for rent or just adverts, I take one, and read it, it really isnt that hard...

but was it an appropriate choice for my poem? Yes, because it is what I wanted to do, but then, NO because it caused readers to say, huh? or just back click.


Angeline, how did you decide what to use in yours? and did you need proofing? if so, who did it...

just wondering

~~~

Anna- your son's rule about -- "speak the right language to the right people"... I he is already very wise

I know so many people, TOO many people, here in SC that have the opinion that if someone cant speak English, they have no right....blah blah blah.


Some of the schools in our district are implementing a new program for pre-K up to 3rd grade( I think) and each school offers immersion classes in the foreign language for half the day, the other half is taught in English. They offer French, Spanish and Japanese, just depends which school you attend.

So far, and I saw this on the news last night, the schools whose pupils have the foreign language/english classes do remarkably better on standardized tests and they actually enjoy i t.


I personally believe that new cultures offer us so much. I think it would be a good thing if people could communicate, regardless of the politics of which language is or is not spoken.


I think i t shows immense empathy that you son already recognizes the need for everyone to be heard and recognized, regardless of their native language. You' ve done good, Ms Swirly

Hiya sis.

The Amante poems that I wrote under the alt Eleanora Day came about for two reasons. First, I've long been interested in how culture influences style in poetry. If you look at poems by Pablo Neruda or Octavio Paz or poets from other Spanish-speaking countries, they have certain commonalities (e.g., dreamy tone, personification of nature). Second, I had been reading a lot of Sandra Cisneros at the time, both poems and short stories. I love the way she writes and expresses her culture by interspersing Spanish in the mostly English stuff. I wanted to write love poems where I tried to combine those interests.

I took Spanish in college but I'm pretty rusty so I did the next best thing: I used babelfish to find the Spanish for the words I wanted in Spanish (first drafts were all English) AND I showed them to Lauren Hynde. She made sure my Spanish didn't say anything dumb in context of the poem like "I want your green umbrella."

I figured if readers really wanted to know the Spanish in the poems, they'd look it up.

I love your poem, the second and third strophes especially, and the ending is great. I agree with Anna that foreign language can add a lot more than words. I found btw that the more I did this, the easier it became to think that way and that made the poems more integrated.

I don't think there's one "right" way to do this. Just keep exploring and you'll find a combination of languages and a way of shaping the poem that works best for you.

 

[Angeline]

PS I'll give you more specific feedback on the poem if you want. I have to finish making dinner and then it'll be time for--gulp--the playoff game.

 

[normal jean]

I have no good answer to that. I wouldn't say that the poem is lost if the reader don't know Spanish or not enough to fully understand those lines. Merely a different poetic experience. One more variable open for intepretation. But isn't poetry a lot about reader intepretation anyway?

yep, it certainly is



`

 

[twelveoone]

it has been said, everything I write is in a foreign language. everywhere. a little known factvoid, everything Tzara, Bogusbrig or Senna Jawa ever wrote are translations of my 42 Vogon haiku. they are good, aren't they.

 

[normal jean]

it has been said, everything I write is in a foreign language. everywhere. a little known factvoid, everything Tzara, Bogusbrig or Senna Jawa ever wrote are translations of my 42 Vogon haiku. they are good, aren't they.

Vogon, you say? I have a few poems posted on the official Vogon site, area 51...if I can even find it anymore

it figures you would like that too. I have always loved your mind, 1201. You never fail to make me consider and re consider.



ya, they're still there.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/4443/ you have to go to the menu bar and click Vogon Poems. Mine are the first 2 up. It is so bizarre you would mention those silly things...

 

[foehn2]

there are some little geniuses here, and geniusettes.

I speak and write Spanish rather fluently, I think.

So, it gives one pause, when a term is thrown out, like "foreign language." Foreign to whom? It's interesting to me, the number of non-translatable phrases there are, between separate languages... Language does seem, in some instances, to dictate a sort of paradigm for thought.

"Flair" is also an interesting thing to consider. I don't think throwing out words that others don't know is particularly "flair-full" ... but on the other hand, if you are a writer or poet and feel the need to employ another language you know, to get across more fully the idea, message or point that you want to, then that is always not only permissible, but recommendable.

I wouldn't recommend it as a device, then, in a language which you assume your intended audience to be fluent in. But having learned a second language, to the best of my ability, and living close to Mexico, I have discovered many things that are almost esoteric, about that.

"Vaya con Dios," a friendly Mexican may tell you, as you turn and walk away. Or, "Que Dios te bendiga," using the subjunctive mood to wish God's favor on you.

These are simple and common statements that our United States culture (if we have one) does not include, generally. I have posted some poems entirely in Spanish, without translation, and was a little embarrassed to do so, because I am not a native speaker of the language.

But I have lived around it, heard it, spoken it, and used it to navigate on trips through Mexico that were not merely tourist excursions. I have been able to relate to and with the people who live in the country, and that's been a blessing. I'm glad I have learned the little I have learned.

I think ... seriously ... that to toss another language around, without considering very soberly the reason for it, is not, usually, a very good idea. Those who speak or read the languages involved fairly well will know if it is art, genuine art, or just a shiny balloon, with interesting paint.

Although, to be fair, I must admit that it was the intriguing mystery of a so-called "foreign" language that drew me in, in the first place, to learn it. And that may not be such a bad thing. A bit of mysterious glitter here and there may do no harm.

/tom

 

[foehn2]

(translation)

¿ adónde Senorita ? ( where are you going, Miss?)


si le no pierden ( if you are not lost)


¿ por qué está usted aquí ? ( what are you doing, here?)

The poetry is lovely, but I don't feel the "translations" are adequate. I'd certainly never say those things, to mean those things, in Spanish.

I would say, "¿A donde vas, señorita?"

and "Si no estas perdida" or "Si no te has perdido"

and "¿Qué estás haciendo aquí?"

Peace, out.