use and misuse of Italics

[Maria2394]

Okay fellow poets and poetesses, it seems that a few people have expressed disdain with the use of Italics in my most recent poem, so I am posting it on this thread so you all can debate whether or not it would be better or worse without all the slant I added. I will defend myself only as far as to say, it was late, I could barely see, and I thought it looked good and worked well..so, here it is.
Also, it has been pointed out that it is not historically accurate. I know this and it wasnt intended as a history lesson

********
a time of ash and ochre

before parts of speech
and written word
communication was a series
of grunts and groans

many things assumed
but how much is really known
about those cavemen

those long dead, but
left-vibrant-markings
on cave walls, men
chasing prey over cliffs
no swords, no guns
but banging sticks, throwing stones
upright walking, now

wonders about the stars,
has a woman waiting
in a place he doesn’t know
to call home, yet

a cave, somewhat a nest
couple of juveniles running around-
they adorn cave walls and skin
with chunks
of ash and ochre

and just how long have kids
been writing on cave walls
anyway?

Man brings home animal
woman realizes
she can grow things, and
control crops by seasons
and she tells stories of woman

she is agriculture,
she is speech, she is history
she is patience
and she owns her man
he just doesn’t know it

 

[Angeline]

My dear friend--

Rules are made to be broken. The best way, after all, is only "best" until someone figures out a better way to do it. For me, the question is not what's right or wrong--it's what makes your poem work.

You're using italics for emphasis. Your other options would be boldface (too distracting, imo), punctuation (not a great option in a poem with short lines) or breaking the lines differently to emphasize what you want. That is generally a good way to go, but sometimes there are reasons you can't do that, either. Make the poem work as best you can--whether you follow rules or not!

I'd try the reformatting thing myself. But I'd also keep in mind that 1) it doesn't matter how good of a poem you write--there's always someone who thinks you did it wrong, and 2) ultimately, the one who most needs to feel you did it "right" is you.

Peace,
Ange

P.S. The critics will tell you that only "epic" poems are allowed to have em, but yknow Walt Whitman and Thomas Hardy used em in poems, so you're in good company.

 

[Maria2394]

My dear friend--

Rules are made to be broken. The best way, after all, is only "best" until someone figures out a better way to do it. For me, the question is not what's right or wrong--it's what makes your poem work.

You're using italics for emphasis. Your other options would be boldface (too distracting, imo), punctuation (not a great option in a poem with short lines) or breaking the lines differently to emphasize what you want. That is generally a good way to go, but sometimes there are reasons you can't do that, either. Make the poem work as best you can--whether you follow rules or not!

I'd try the reformatting thing myself. But I'd also keep in mind that 1) it doesn't matter how good of a poem you write--there's always someone who thinks you did it wrong, and 2) ultimately, the one who most needs to feel you did it "right" is you.

Peace,
Ange

P.S. The critics will tell you that only "epic" poems are allowed to have em, but yknow Walt Whitman and Thomas Hardy used em in poems, so you're in good company.

Angeline,
I appreciate the time you took to answer... I love walt whitman, hehe

I
ve seen the italics debate brought up minutely, before and when oxalis suggested that we have a discussion, I di dtell him he could post the poem and start the thread, but it doesnt matter. I think he has a legitmate point that often times the italics are overused..and it is possible I did just that with this one.

Last week I posted one without the formatting for th e italics and it just looked awful..really, didnt have near the effect I was aiming for and well, I had the midnight misty-eyed, way past the munchies kneee deep in coma pushing delieriums so I posted it as is..
but seriously, I wouldnt mind if anyone wants to use this poem as an example, use it to show how and why parts would be better with or with out them Oh, oxalis??

 

[OT]

i thought it was one of those hidden message thingies

By reading just the italics i see a poem in a poem

C'mon, I'm sure at least a few of you out there
1. are old enough to have actually owned a record player
2. tried playing the Beatles backwards

Capitalization, punctuation, font, spacing, line breaks, word choice ... -- all tools.

I've probably read just as many poem where the punctuation detracted from the message as poems where a little punctuation would have greatly benefitted the piece. Centered text works well for some, seems silly for others. The list goes on.

the only rule is that everything about a poem should have a purpose.
If you like it like that, then leave it.

 

[Angeline]

I see this whole issue of what's correct vis-a-vis poems and punctuation and style as I do the "right way" to illusrate a poem. I just keep fooling with it and trying things until I feel it works. There's a point where you just know.

 

[Guest]

I think in italics

Most of what I write is in first person. Sometimes I use italics for emphasis, but mostly to signal internal conversation within the poem; however, I do try to keep italics to the bare mininium.


- neo

 

[jthserra]

OT, yes, I remember...

C'mon, I'm sure at least a few of you out there
1. are old enough to have actually owned a record player
2. tried playing the Beatles backwards

Yes... I tried that. After ruining a good album and nearly wrecking my stereo, I figured whatever the message was, it wasn't that important.


As for italics, I will use it in prose to symbolize a flashback or something out of the ordinary. In poetry I normally leave italics alone, figuring the impact should be in the words and not in the font choice. However, I debated using italics in my recent Still poem. I wish I did use them because it seems no one caught that I hid a "still" in each stanza...


Motion
less a breeze
but lack of wind
the last ill leaves linger
in the mourning cold.

Easter Lily:
will its white
blossoms remind me
before the warming skies
of another March?


I had it hidden in each stanza, and though I had several comments regarding the use of ill in several stanzas, the still was missed. Perhaps the italics will help someone from getting too subtle.

As far as Maria's poem, I think the italics actually lost some of it's emphasis because it was used so much. I feel her words are strong enough without the added glitz of so much italics.


jim

 

[WickedEve]

Re: I think in italics

Most of what I write is in first person. Sometimes I use italics for emphasis, but mostly to signal internal conversation within the poem; however, I do try to keep italics to the bare mininium.


- neo

Same here. I mostly use it for internal conversation, instead of quotation marks.

I think maybe you had too many words in italics, Maria. I know you were trying to emphasize specific words but about half your poem is emphasized, which diminishes the impact.

 

[Guest]

Re: OT, yes, I remember...

As for italics, I will use it in prose to symbolize a flashback or something out of the ordinary. In poetry I normally leave italics alone, figuring the impact should be in the words and not in the font choice. However, I debated using italics in my recent Still poem. I wish I did use them because it seems no one caught that I hid a "still" in each stanza...


Motion
less a breeze
but lack of wind
the last ill leaves linger
in the mourning cold.

Easter Lily:
will its white
blossoms remind me
before the warming skies
of another March?


I had it hidden in each stanza, and though I had several comments regarding the use of ill in several stanzas, the still was missed. Perhaps the italics will help someone from getting too subtle.


jim

I have to admit I missed that.jim. So obvious in hindsight.

It's a problem trying to decided whether to be subtle and just hope readers will notice or to go with the direct approach and use "bold" or italics.
I have several acrostics that I know were missed but it feels kinda nice that they're there - waiting to be noticed.

 

[jthserra]

Re: Re: OT, yes, I remember...

I have several acrostics that I know were missed but it feels kinda nice that they're there - waiting to be noticed.

You know... Poetry magazine once published a poem that contained an unnoticed acrostic. That was okay, except that the message contained there was very derogatory toward another well known poet. Went as far as calling him an ass. It slipped past all the editors and was published.

jim

 

[OT]

Sneaking layers into a poem is cool but ...

Jim, I think it would have seriously detracted from your Still if you had put the words in italics. Subtleties like that are best left to be discovered.

And Tess, If an acrostic goes unnoticed, I think that that speaks to the quality of the poem. I have Sonnet-Phobia, but have accidentally liked a couple because I liked them as poems before I realized that they were sonnets.