USA 'Fascist'?

[dr_mabeuse]

A friend of mine made some close friends in Eastrern Europe when he was over there a couple years ago, and this summer got to repay their hospitality for a week when they toured the USA.

They loved their visit and thought the USA was great (they especially liked the West, where my friend lives, scene of so many Westerns). Their only complaint was that they were shocked at how 'fascist' the country was, and how dissatisfied and unhappy people here seemed to be with their lives.

This kind of surprised me. I know that much (if not most) of the world looks at the USA as a war-monger, but the chliche is that the government might be warlike, but the people who live here are decent. I never thought that other people might see us as 'fascist'.

Their comments have haunted me since. I guess it bothers me a lot to be seen as fascist, no matter how unfair that characterization might be.

 

[Liar]

They loved their visit and thought the USA was great (they especially liked the West, where my friend lives, scene of so many Westerns). Their only complaint was that they were shocked at how 'fascist' the country was, and how dissatisfied and unhappy people here seemed to be with their lives.

This kind of surprised me. I know that much (if not most) of the world looks at the USA as a war-monger, but the chliche is that the government might be warlike, but the people who live here are decent. I never thought that other people might see us as 'fascist'.

Their comments have haunted me since. I guess it bothers me a lot to be seen as fascist, no matter how unfair that characterization might be.

What makes it even more strange is that, according to the way you retold it at least, this wasn't their prejudice about the US and the Americans...but what they were suprised to discover when they actually went there and met them.

My guess is that they saw a culture different than theirs, and different from what they had been expecting, which often at first will seem like a negative impression. Like thinking you are drinking a Guinness, but that is in fact a Coke. It will taste likie shit until you realize that it was just not what you expected.

 

[Goldeniangel]

Maybe they saw something that we didn't... there are a lot of times when I'm shocked at how ignorant and biased some people are... Even on Literotica for example. I was reading a story that was a GREAT story, but the author had used Hindu for the actual conversation. All of it was translated right afterwards, but there was a comment at the end saying something along the lines of "Why did you write in Hindu? I think there should be a seperate category for you people who want to write in another language. I had to vote you a 0 because you did that, no matter what the story was like."

It's stuff like that, our ethnocentrism, the assumption that America is better than anywhere else in the world, that everyone should want to be like us, that we have the right to go anywhere we want to fix things and make them better - whether or not hte people in that country want us there. And I'm not just talking about Iraq.

Chances are, when they were here, people treated them with the attitude of "Oh, you're foriegn! Well, aren't we great? Don't you wish you lived HERE? How could where YOU live POSSIBLY be as great as here?" and made assumptions about how they were enjoying themselves and what their lives back home were like. I've seen it hapen, although I personally try not to do it.

Facist might not be the right word, but I'm not really sure if there IS a word for the way a lot of America behaves about itself.

 

[rgraham666]

Perhaps they are commenting on the rather corporatist nature of the power structure here in North America.

Fascism, many people forget, was a very corporatist structure. In a corporatism, the citizen doesn't count, it's the various interest groups. The individual becomes part of a particular group and it's the group's interest and power that is foremost.

Then the system tries to balance out these various special interests. The argument is that the balancing of special interests serves the public interest. They're wrong.

And our system is now quite corporatist. The huge number of lobbyists that infect our system are an illustration of this. They don't represent the system, but the special interest that pays them. They push their group's agenda even if the nation suffers for it.

A big portion of our media would reinforce a view of our system as fascist. Often it consist of a 'Hero' standing alone on a stage, spouting 'great truths' with an audience that cheers at scripted intervals. 'Debates' mostly consist of a 'Hero' shouting down a 'class enemy'.

As my favourite authour remarked, "It seems The Axis has won the Second World War after all."

 

[cantdog]

background:

A fellow named Bard Schmookler, if I remember right (I borrowed the book and it is long out of print) wrote a book called The Parable of the Tribes. The thesis is, if there are ten tribes, each more or less equivalently armed and and able to project their power, each time one of them develops a new weapons tech, or just a new mode of organization which makes them more effective, all the others, however much they may prefer the way of life they have now, must adopt that innovation. Laid back hunters and gatherers must become hard toiling peasants and pastoralists, despite the better quality of life which they enjoy as they are.

This is enforced by the penalties for not complying: to perish or to be absorbed by the innovating culture.

The book is a little depressing. It goes through history showing example after example. Then a lot of the book is taken up with hopeful cases where it seems someone might have gotten away without needing to warp their culture in order to survive as a tribe, only to find, in case after case, that the inexorable working of the Parable applied anyhow. His follow-up book reputedly was more hopeful, but by the time he published Parable, he still had not found a way out of the depressing effects of this seeming law of history.

He discusses the undeniable fact that man is unsuited, naturally, to life in groups of millions. People get schizoid in the environment. But no culture can afford to abandon the giant city, because then they die as a culture due to inability to compete.

end background

The fascist society, as for example the Axis Powers, is still seen as a very efficient State. It allowed an unprecedented organization of State power. Militarism and a strong us-versus-them nationalism, inculcated young, helped the countries mobilize a conquering force with new and frightening efficiency. There were other features, too. Fascist countries limit competition among companies. The state adopted certain companies and favored them, that they would grow and dominate their field. Small numbers of giant suppliers made war materiel easier to produce in an organized way. Eisenhower saw the system adopted here and called it the military-industrial complex. After the war these fascist societies were supposedly dismantled, but the local leaders were largely retained, and many of the fascist techniques were adopted by the victor countries. All over the world there are a lot of states who made changes to the way they operate to take advantage of the new ideas.

Fascism is not a good characterization, perhaps, of America, if you just state it as a definition. But a good many features of fascism are indeed here, as well as in many other places worldwide. If you don't change your culture to take advantage of the new efficiencies, even though it warps the way of life which once characterized your culture and made it a great way to live, you will not be capable of resisting other cultures who were less squeamish and who are therefore more efficient.

In that sense, finding elements of fascism here, in a state which sacrificed much to destroy fascism, is surprising. I see the developing political police systems and the military-industrial machine as major steps in a wrong direction, as forces which are making America less good than once it was. Rationality versus quality again. Just because it's reasonable doesn't mean it's necessarily any good. During the cold war, though, measures which produce a more powerful state could not in good conscience be rejected.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

These people I talked about are old enough to remember their communist past, so I figure they were accustomed to using 'fascist' as a general term of disapproval, the way 'commie' was (is) used here.

I just assumed they meant that they found us regimented, corporatized (as Rob pointed out), and kind of knee-jerk militarist. Certainly no one can argue about America's being the most militarily aggressive nation on the face of the earth right now, or the widespread support this policy enjoys among most of its citizenry, especially since 9/11. I suppose someone from a more pacifist nation might see that as a kind of fascism.

 

[R. Richard]

These people I talked about are old enough to remember their communist past, so I figure they were accustomed to using 'fascist' as a general term of disapproval, the way 'commie' was (is) used here.

I just assumed they meant that they found us regimented, corporatized (as Rob pointed out), and kind of knee-jerk militarist. Certainly no one can argue about America's being the most militarily aggressive nation on the face of the earth right now, or the widespread support this policy enjoys among most of its citizenry, especially since 9/11. I suppose someone from a more pacifist nation might see that as a kind of fascism.

Mussolini is considered to have defined fascist philosophy: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State". He reasoned that, within a state, each individuals' business is the state's business, and the state's existence is the sole duty of the individual.

The United States, at this time, can't really be accurately described as fascist. We have numerous groups who attempt to at least influence the running of the state; there is no monolithic State. Individuals within the United States still have a lot of lattitude in running their individual lives. Admittedly, there
are no more restrictions on said individual lives than there were in the not too distant past, but we are under attack. Druing WW II there were a lot more restrictions on individual lives, yet the restrictions were removed after WW II.

I feel that you are correct that "fascist" was used as a general term of disapproval. However, at least they didn't call us fascist pigs!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I feel that you are correct that "fascist" was used as a general term of disapproval. However, at least they didn't call us fascist pigs!

I want to stress that the word 'fascist' was not used accusingly by these people, but rather with a note of sadness and dismay. I believe what they said was that they were surprised at the fascist attitude of most Americans, or something to that effect.

 

[Pure]

though the term has been used very loosely by the left, in this case, I don't see the surprise, mab, with all due respect.

'militaristic' won't quite be adequate.

I think of people being held without charges, access to lawyers, etc. Further the government can declare the evidence against you 'secret,' so that no one (including you) except the judge and prosecutor see it.

Also, as another poster said, dissenters as 'enemies of the state' is a mark of fascism (and other dictatorial systems). Sunday's Times has the story of the 'swiftboating' of that mother parked on the highway to Bush's ranch. The smear, it points out, is not so effective in this case, but has been used in half a dozen high profile cases, e.g., the hubby of Valerie Plame.

Anyway, choose your def., doc, there's definitely something to what your friends have recounted. Ah,.... but the 'free elections'. I remind you that the nazis came to power in 'free elections.'
---

PS,
as far as the phrase
'fascist attitude of most Americans' goes. besides support for the military in its imperial role, i think of the *acceptance* of the above domestic situation. the idea that been sold, and believed, is that the foreign and domestic measures are 'keeping us secure.' (President's last Iraq speech used this theme: the war there keeps us secure at home.)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I want to stress that the word 'fascist' was not used accusingly by these people, but rather with a note of sadness and dismay. I believe what they said was that they were surprised at the fascist attitude of most Americans, or something to that effect.

I think Liar is probably on target Mab. When your exposure to a culture other than your own is secondhand, you gain a perspective that is highly warped. Consider what a person whose only exposure to the US is through television and movies. Dirty Harry meets Married with Children.

Even if you are well read and have extensively studied another country you can find yourself seeing them through the eyes of the author.

You tend to build an idea of what you will find and if it is different, your reation is going to be more severe in relation to how different you find it.

I visited Mexico recently on a dive trip. I had some very strong ideas of what it was like in Mexico, mostly negatives. Some of those thing were true, poverty being one and a heavily armed military/police presence another. Not drinking the water and taxi drivers being only slightly less daredevil than NYC cabbies. Some were off base, granted it was the Yucatan, but I always think of Mexico as being like the American South West, with a lot of big sky, open planes and rock formations. It was really green and beautiful. I came away having a much better feel for the country, since my initial assumptions were negative. I'm going back in December and looking forward to it. I like the people I have met there and the scenery, although I'm still scared of the food. Not because of it being bad, just because I hate spicy stuff

However, I went to jamacia with very positive assumptions, based largely on out of date accounts and travelogues and commercials. I walked away with the the feeling I would never visit again. To date I haven't. My experience was so bad, my folks even look for cruises that don't stop there when they plan trips now as there's was not much better.

My point is, when you go in, if your expectations are high, either positively or negatively, if you think you know what you are going to find and don't, your reaction will be dictated more by how far from your expectation reality falls, than by what you really might think of the reality if presented to you without those expectations.

 

[shereads]

We are kind of fascist. Didn't everyone got the memo?

 

[shereads]

He discusses the undeniable fact that man is unsuited, naturally, to life in groups of millions. People get schizoid in the environment.

That makes perfect depressing sense.

Living in Miami, a lot of my friends are second generation Cuban Americans. Their parents and grandparents naturally equate their hatred of Fidel Castro with a hatred of tyranny. (I'm not saying they're wrong about Castro being a tyrant, but Batista wasn't exactly Muhatma Ghandi, either.*)

Their adult children are vehemently anti-Castro too, but they complain that the older generation's knee-jerk reaction to news that threatens their current status quo (everything from terrorism and violent crime to anti-government protests) is a disturbing eagerness to see the American government impose order by taking away civil liberties. Castro-style. Or Batista-style. Depending on one's perspective.

These first-generation Cuban exiles celebrate freedom and democracy, and fly the American flag, with a degree of enthusiasm that can be deeply moving, in light of what they went through to get here. But they use "freedom" in their political rhetoric in a way that strips it of meaning. They favor free speech, but when a popular political figure is indicted on corruption charges, they blame the press. They hate tyranny, except in cases where the tyrant opposed communism. When hundreds of protesters marched against NAFTA and were met by enough armed goons to line the streets of downtown Miami two-deep on each side, they considered it a proper use of armed force to protect our freedom.

In my book, schizoid aptly describes that concept of freedom. And fascism describes the militaristic system that's necessary to defend it.

Admitting that my definition of fascism isn't dictionary-accurate, but a set of impressions, this is what I think of when I hear the word: the desire for a regimented society that promises to keep the right people safe, prosperous, and "free" by any means necessary. (I also associate fascism with precision marching. Could that be why John Philips Sousa reminds me of Stalin? )

That's where the U.S. has been headed since 9/11 and the Patriot Act, cheered on by uber-patriots - of which none have been more vocal than those older Cubans who fled Castro under such traumatic circumstances. They are justifably bitter and hungry for security. But they are far too eager to live under a more tyrannical U.S. government than the one that welcomed them.



* My closest Cuban-American friend admits that her great-grandfather worked his tobacco plantation with what amounted to serf-labor. Manual laborors weren't paid, but they were provided with housing and were allowed to grow food for their families. Unlike slaves, they were free to leave. Like slaves, they couldn't afford to leave. My friend's grandmother and aunts, who were the children of the plantation owner, remember Cuba before Castro as a free country.)

 

[kendo1]

I wouldn't classify the US as 'fascist', maybe 'inwardly focused' has been my impression when I visited.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

My family is from Eastern Europe, one of those pseduo-commie countries that is now independent and struggling with the difference between democracy and capitalism. For years, and to this day, my parents have beeen saying that America is not a land of freedom, not a free country. The thing is, their definition of freedom includes being able to walk in a park at midnight without worrying about getting mugged or worse, being able to send the children to play outside without much supervision because nothing worse could happen to them than a skinned knee, forgetting where your house keys are because you haven't used them in a month, and giving rides to strangers.

We can't really know what the visitors meant by fascist.

 

[human_male]

Did they give any specific reasons? Maybe it's the weight of laws that Americans live under, laws for just about everything. Or the laws trying to control sexual behavior like it's illegal in some states to have butt sex, and sex toys are illegal in some states. Maybe it's stuff like that that they were referring too?

 

[rgraham666]

Credere! Ubbidire! Combattere! (Believe! Obey! Fight!) was the Fascist chant.

I'm afraid I often get strong resonances of this when exposed to some of the media these days.

 

[thebullet]

I remember a quote from Mussolini (though I can only paraphrase it here); something to the effect that Fascism is the marriage of industry and government.

Using that criteria, it could be said that America is the most successful and complete of all fascist states. We have reached the point in this country where business controls most political decision-making: pharamaceutical companies control FDA policy, oil companies control energy policy, etc.

Perhaps these visitors from abroad saw that in this country, the chicken hawks are guarding the chicken coops. To some, that is fascism.

 

[Lisa Denton]

These people I talked about are old enough to remember their communist past, so I figure they were accustomed to using 'fascist' as a general term of disapproval, the way 'commie' was (is) used here.

I just assumed they meant that they found us regimented, corporatized (as Rob pointed out), and kind of knee-jerk militarist. Certainly no one can argue about America's being the most militarily aggressive nation on the face of the earth right now, or the widespread support this policy enjoys among most of its citizenry, especially since 9/11. I suppose someone from a more pacifist nation might see that as a kind of fascism.

Yes Dr.M they may have been meaning many things and the phrase as a general term of disapproval.

And they may have met some real assholes, fascist pigs, bush bashers, flag burners, commies, homosexuals, pissed off soccer moms, liberals, republicans, democrats, war mongers, and peace activists. But I doubt they sat down and had a long talk with any of them.

I recently was traveling through a small town and was delayed by car troubles. The people seemed distant, suspicious, almost rude. The waitress and other customers in a small diner were uneasy. After a few moments of friendly conversation they all suddenly became all smiles and nice. Explained that they had met people passing through who were rude and obnoxious, lumped them all together as bush loving, war loving republicans because they lived in a small town, and wouldn't spend time even talking to them to find out different. I found out they were exactly like those in a big city, all different, all intelligent, and each with thier own widely different views and opinions.

Spending a few moments getting to know them made all the difference, showing them I was not rude, or suspicious of them, and they opened up and told me thier fears and hopes.

What saddened me much later that day as I drove out of that small town was the one stereotype I had found. Since I was from a big city, and had travelled a lot, some of the people did ask me, is it true? The news and shows. Do most americans in other places hate not only the president but also thier own country? I cried as I drove away.

I had given them no hope, only the truth as I saw it.

That yes, bush bashing has turned to america bashing and is very much "in style."
That is is considered cool to say we live in an oppressed war-loving county, where we can be locked up and held with-out charges, knowing that we can say these things and not be locked up is something that should not be mentioned, it is not "in style."

But perhaps some of my hopes came through with my sad words, that maybe one day, with the american people and a good american government and good president, this country might again be looked at as the strongest nation on earth, helping the weak, the poor, the sick, the afraid. Without forcing our opinions or way of life on others, but helping where we can.

Anyhow, I hope they saw that, but they probably didn't.

Sometimes I can't see it.

 

[shereads]

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:



My family is from Eastern Europe, one of those pseduo-commie countries that is now independent and struggling with the difference between democracy and capitalism. For years, and to this day, my parents have beeen saying that America is not a land of freedom, not a free country.

Freedom seems to be a matter of perspective. Bill Maher says the U.S. can't call itself a free country until we stop arresting adults for smoking marijuana. He has a point; the War on Drugs is one example of how eager we are to protect other people from themselves.

The freedom I valued most was privacy. Before the Patriot Act, I knew that my private life was private, period. Only by being connected with enough public evidence of criminal activity to justify a judge granting a warrant, everything from my internet use to the titles of books I bought was nobody's business but my own. It still makes my head spin to realize how easily we gave that up, and with what implications.

Having granted government the right to randomly search our lives for signs of terrorist activity, we've allowed them access to information that might be used in the future to arrest us for things that aren't quite illegal yet: writing pornographic stories; anti-government speech; participating in a message-board thread that questions whether the United States is becoming a fascist state.

My 15-year-old nephew's generation of Americans will enter adulthood under the assumption that it's always been this way; that it's always been necessary to be careful with our words because someone's watching. For our own protection.

The meaning of privacy will be degraded in common use, like freedom.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

~ Me and Bobby McGee, K. Kristofferson

 

[shereads]

I remember a quote from Mussolini (though I can only paraphrase it here); something to the effect that Fascism is the marriage of industry and government.

Using that criteria, it could be said that America is the most successful and complete of all fascist states.

And how insulting is it that we have to pay for the wedding reception, but most of us aren't invited?

 

[sweetnpetite]

I want to stress that the word 'fascist' was not used accusingly by these people, but rather with a note of sadness and dismay. I believe what they said was that they were surprised at the fascist attitude of most Americans, or something to that effect.

Not knowing what "fascist" really means off the top of my head (other than it's supposed to be something bad) I looked it up:

often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

I can see how that would apply. I really can. If you think of Fascism strictly as 1 specific "fascism movement" ie. Fascist Itally, it's more limiting of course. But just to go by the definition, I can certainly see that. (and tends to make people say, "we aren't fascist because we don't do this or that that 'they' did.

More food for thought:

WORD HISTORY:
It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, "bundle, (political) group," but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.

WAR is a big part of our culture. I've just began to see it. We *are* a warior culture, but I think we are in denial of it. A close inspection will reveal that many of our attitudes about every day life reflect that. (esp. what it means to 'be a man' such as the need to not show weakness, seperate from mother, distance yourself from anything considered 'feminine' or 'soft', our pasttimes- from violent videogames to hunting, the importance of sports, who are heros are)

This part of the definition really lept out at me: typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. I see a lot *lot* *lot* of that. It frankly gets on my nerves- and I grew up here.

On the other hand, I think, given the opportunity, I would certainly want to ask the visiters to expand there definition and point out some examples to know just what they mean when they say it. THe response would be most interesting.

 

[sweetnpetite]

This kind of surprised me. I know that much (if not most) of the world looks at the USA as a war-monger, but the chliche is that the government might be warlike, but the people who live here are decent.

Interesting how we can delude ourselves into thinking that we aren't 'warlike'- and that even though we claim to be a government 'of the poeple for the people and by the people' we find ourselves so easily seperating ourselves from it.

Go through your day and try to notice all the ways that our culture celebrates war (and wariors). You might be suprised.

 

[thebullet]

We *are* a warior culture, but I think we are in denial of it.

I read a short story on Lit the other day. The protagonist mentioned that he wasn't into guns. Then he listed his two rifles and two handguns, using that as proof that he had so few because he wasn't interested in guns.

We have a seriously fucked up society. Perhaps that has something to do with our cavelier militarism. I was raised being told that the USA was the 'good guys', the 'hope of the world', etc, etc, and blah blah blah.

What we are is the biggest bully on the block.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I wonder if they were thinking of things like smoking being banned nearly everywhere, smokers being allowed to be fired from there jobs, government trying to control our sex lives, the 'war on drugs' (largley involving things one does in the privacy of there own home), strict alchohol sale and use rules, and stuff like that.

Mussolini is considered to have defined fascist philosophy: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State". He reasoned that, within a state, each individuals' business is the state's business, and the state's existence is the sole duty of the individual.

The United States, at this time, can't really be accurately described as fascist. We have numerous groups who attempt to at least influence the running of the state; there is no monolithic State. Individuals within the United States still have a lot of lattitude in running their individual lives. Admittedly, there
are no more restrictions on said individual lives than there were in the not too distant past, but we are under attack. Druing WW II there were a lot more restrictions on individual lives, yet the restrictions were removed after WW II.

I feel that you are correct that "fascist" was used as a general term of disapproval. However, at least they didn't call us fascist pigs!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Interesting how we can delude ourselves into thinking that we aren't 'warlike'- and that even though we claim to be a government 'of the poeple for the people and by the people' we find ourselves so easily seperating ourselves from it.

Go through your day and try to notice all the ways that our culture celebrates war (and wariors). You might be suprised.

Well, that's a big part of what shocked me. I mean, I know that looked at objectively, we're the most warlike nation on the planet. We've been in involved in or helped out in just about every military conflict that's occurred in the last 50 years. (I don't think we were involved in the India-Pakistan war, but I might be wrong, or in the Falklands war.) We might look at our involvement in flattering terms--as helping out democracy or whatever we want to say--but that's not how the rest of the world sees it.

Still, I always thought that foreigners would somehow know that the poeple of the US--you, me, and the other guy--are not our government. That we ourselves are a decent, peace-loving people. Maybe that's not the case, though, and that fact kind of horrifies me.