US Patriotism and Religion

[lavender]

 

[Calamity Jane]

I'm probably not going to contribute anything truly worthwhile to this thread. I'm gonna post anyway.

With the exception of a few hours in Canada a couple of years ago, the US is the only country I've ever been in. I have absolutely no basis of comparison. Of course I think this is the best place for me to live. I also think the town I live in, and the house I'm sitting in are the best places to live. For me.

Patriotism has become a fad. It's the new cool thing. Something Earth shattering happened, and the populace jumped on the bandwagon. Everyone ran to Wal-Mart and bought flags. It's a false sense of pride.

I see a lot of parallels between religion and patriotism. Much of the time, they're both strongly held 'beliefs' based on not much of anything except the idea that we're *supposed* to believe something.

 

[Guest]

 

[Dragon Dreamer]

You are exactly right lavender. Patriotism is a lot like religion in how it is instilled in people, usually at a young and impressionable age, when the people teaching are not questioned by them to any serious degree.

I myself am Canadian, and I love my country. I love the beauty of the landscape, the diversity of it's people, the freedoms and prosperity that we enjoy. I don't know if my country is "better" than someone else's, but it is important to me. I think that's what patriotism should be about, personal experience and feelings, not blind belief.

 

[sufisaint]

at least to me the word patriot has conotations of loving freedom not the government or the flag. There are many people who call themselves patriots who are not enthralled with our government at all and its ability to slowly shrink our freedoms. I do myself still believe we are still basically free in this country if by the mere fact you can at least fall between the cracks and do what ever you want,without hurting someone else, if you don't bring attention to yourself. Thats is changing though and the net is a classic example....regulation is coming but like water the free will just flow underground if damned at the surface.....

To me this ties in religion, there are those who believe in freedom of religion, to follow your own path to God...and then there are the flag waving sheep who have no idea how precious their freedom and souls really are and just follow the herder blindly to slaughter...wasting their freedom and true souls for prepackaged safe passage...

Make sense? Its an opinion....

 

[markb325]

Patriotism is just a word that is pulled off the shelf everytime our country goes to war or in this case something like 9-11 happens. You see flags flying out of the bed of pickup trucks or flag sticker on the windows of cars. Flags flying off the antentas of cars. So what is it? What does this word patriotism mean? Love of country? That is a good one to start with but it goes deeper than that I believe. Patriotism I feel is more about the people of the country then the country its self. Yes we live in a great country. We have the right of free speech, freedom of religion, and the right to express ourselves. But all of that doesn't do a bit of good without the people of the country. Patriotism is being able to stand next to your neighbor in times of trouble and declare who and what we are. Love of country is great, but love of your neighbor is better.

 

[medjay]

It's funny to me how when I meet people from other countries they all tend to exhibit some sort of feeling of respect and ethnic pride about their home country. Whenever I've traveled outside of the United States, however, I've never felt to urge to tell anyone where I was from.

Guess I'm not "proud to be an American".

 

[markb325]

<snip>

Guess I'm not "proud to be an American".

medjay,

Believe me some days I'm not either.

 

[sexy-girl]

So what is patriotism to you? Why do you feel the need to be a patriot?

i think patriotism is probably the worst and the best thing about america ... i guess its unique for a western country to have that kind of patriotism that is almost fanaticism ... for that reason i dont think you should lose it ... but maybe just combat some of the problems that it does cause ... a more realistic media and somehow perhaps a more worldly view of current affairs


in england many people question why english people aren't patriotic and if we are losing our national identify ... it seems whenever we have patriotism in england it go's hand in hand with racism ... another thing americans should be proud of is although you have a big problem with racism it doesn't seem so linked with patriotism as it is here ... what seems natural for us is to have a much more cynical view of our government ... i doubt anybody likes blair as much as most americans love bush ... the president is sort of seen how we see our monarch ... and most people dont even see her like that now

 

[medjay]

Re: Re: US Patriotism and Religion

... i doubt anybody likes blair as much as most americans love bush ...

I don't think that many of us love Bush.



At least, nobody I know loves him. And I know a lot of people. In fact I don't know anyone who even voted for him.

 

[medjay]

Re: Re: US Patriotism and Religion

in england many people question why english people aren't patriotic and if we are losing our national identify ... it seems whenever we have patriotism in england it go's hand in hand with racism ... another thing americans should be proud of is although you have a big problem with racism it doesn't seem so linked with patriotism as it is here ... w

America is too much of a "melting pot" for racism to be a patriotic issue. We're full of immigrants here.

But that's the reason American patriotism is so difficult. So many people can claim to be Irish-American or Asian-American and so forth. What then makes a true American? The WASP?

I can't drum up any real feelings of patriotism due to the simple fact that I am an ethnic minority with no real tracable roots. To me this is just the place where I happened to be born but don't really fit in.

I have more pride in the neighborhood I grew up in than anything else.

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by lavender
. . . I do not assert that America is the best nation. I don't need my land to be the BEST. I do not feel the need for America to be some hot shot nation amongst a second and third class of nations. I like this country for various reasons. But, I also have a great disdain for various things in our country. . .

Unlike you, I will assert that America is the greatest nation on this earth. Like you, I have no need for it to be the best nor the hot shot to which you refer.

My assertion is based in my recognition of and response to the philosophical basis of its origin and the recognition of the nature of man and the most beneficent environment for mankind to prosper and advance. While the founders were not perfect, they achieved something truly amazing in the annals of human history.

Presented with the opportunity to create a government over which they could establish themselves as the controlling authority for generations, they declined to do so. They valued freedom and understood that freedom was the most desirable state for mankind's life and benefit. To paraphrase Washington, "I did not fight a war against King George III to become King George I". This was the tenor of his declination when the suggestion was made that he become America's king.

They took great care to establish a government with the least proclivity to become a tyrannical master instead of remain the modest protector of the citizen's rights. They succeeded to an admirable degree. They knew there were shortcomings, e. g., slavery, but they got the best they could under the circumstance of their time. They also built in the means to change the government to correct the discrepancies they recognized as well as those they had not. They were also wise enough to make the alteration process stringent so that it would not be subject to the turmoil of trivialities.

The achievements of this nation over the past two hundred years have pretty well vindicated their efforts as laudable and is a testament to the wisdom and foresight of the men who founded this nation.

I agree with you that there are things about America today that are abominable. I attribute that to politicians whose sole purpose is the advancement of their personal benefit at the expense of anyone who happens to be in the way. I separate politicians and their egregious behaviors from the nation and the principles upon which it is founded. I considerate it unfair and irrational to blame the nation for the irrational behavior of the transient politicians who happen to be in office at a given moment.

What I perceive as a decline in the stature of America is directly attributable to miscreant politicians serving their own narrow self-interest who do not respect the principles and values upon which America is founded. Likewise, they do not have the integrity to be faithful to their oath of office nor to obey the fundamental law of the land which limits their authority. Rather than emigrate to a nation that shares their collectivist objectives, they wage endless campaigns to inflict collectivist tyranny on Americans.

Originally posted by medjay
. . . Guess I'm not "proud to be an American".

Conversely, I am proud to be an American. I am, however, chagrined at some of those who unfortunately share the same national origin as mine for they truly denigrate the concept of my nation.

 

[Mellon Collie]

I am very, very critical of our government and Capitalism as a whole. I mean critical to the point where I believe it should be dismantled. I'm accused more often than not of being unpatriotic - this, coming from the idiots with their flags and morons with their pledge of allegiance. Our country is not defined by our government anymore. Bush and his buddies are not what makes this place the USA.

It's so funny how quick the general public is to forget that the people who have questioned and fought against the machine all throughout history have been what improved America. I mean our entire country is based on rebellion from the overpowering and oppressive norm.

It cannot be denied that America is extremely screwed up but I love this stupid country in spite of all it faults and fuck ups and isn't that what real patriotism should be?

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Wanna borrow my Che Guevara av for awhile, darling? You'd look fetching in fatigues and a scraggly beard.

 

[Mellon Collie]

You're not talking to me are you?

 

[Hamletmaschine]

No, not you, my other spouse.

 

[Mellon Collie]

I'll have the divorce papers drawn up in the morning.

 

[CharlieG]

Patriotism and religion are related, but not in the simple-minded way posited in this thread. American ideals come largely from the dissident British Protestants who first settled the Eastern coast. They gave us our nearly unique principle of religious tolerance. My neighbor has every right to think I'm going to hell. He has no right to send me there before my time, or even to be uncivil to me. We are an intensely religious people, but never let our beliefs cross over into persecution.

I'm not a Christian at all. I'm a Jew. America has been very good to the Jews, and we have contributed at least our share to America. This country lets us make our own decisions, whether to assimilate or be Orthodox. A country like Sweden may talk big about tolerance, but in the end they don't want anyone there who isn't Swedish. Here there are scores of Protestant sects all across the country that make Satmar Hasidim look downright normal.

In New York City there are lots of immigrants, most of them refugees. You get a good sense of what life is like abroad, in First World as well as Third World countries. We must be doing something right, because everybody in the world wants to move here. We could solve the Palestinian problem in a minute by handing out 100,000 Green Cards on the West Bank.

The US has won the two great wars of the 20th Century, against Fascism and against Communism. When the Soviet Union lost the Cold War, democracy flowered around the globe. Twenty years ago, who would have dreamed that all of Latin America would be democratic (except, of course, for Cuba)? Who would have imagined all of Eastern Europe embracing free enterprise and representative government? Who would have imagined a world where the only Evil Empire left is Microsoft?

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are the basis not only of our government. Their principles have been adopted by governments around the world. What other country in history has brought not just peace and prosperity, but freedom? I think we have plenty of which to be proud.

 

[p_p_man]

Patriotism is a fickle thing.

Take Vietnam. Patriotism took a nosedive in favour of pulling out of a war which many people came to believe was a mistake. Because America was losing.

Take the World Cup. As America progressed through the tournement patriotism slowly rose in the ratings. As it does in all countries.

Take 11 September. Patriotism received a booster rocket of popularity. But now as time passes and other issues come along. Patriotism slides back to its previos position.

Religion is a crutch. Which we use to see our way through hard times.

Ergo, patriotism is popular when things are going well. Religion is poular when things are going badly.

ppman

 

[Purple Haze]

It's a great country, even people that don't like it still choose to live here.....

 

[Laurel]

I'm always proud of my country, even when the yahoos in charge run it into the ground. Being patriotic means making sure that leaders adhere to its founding principles. Sitting around with your head up your ass, your thumb in your mouth, and a big flag on your car doesn't make you a patriot - it makes you an idiot.

 

[p_p_man]

"Patriotism is the last resort of the unworthy"

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Re: Patriotism is a fickle thing.

Ergo, patriotism is popular when things are going well. Religion is poular when things are going badly.

ppman

so then shouldn't patriotism have been at an all-time low during the bleakest days of the blitz? I thought that's when British patriotism was at a high point what with the constant viewings of Henry V and speechifying about filling the breech up with English dead and Churchill's speeches imploring Britons to fight the Germans on the land, on the sea, and in the air?

And don't you remember what happened on this board on Sept. 12, 2001. Virtually every American here had a red, white, and blue avatar at the lowest moment in American history in my lifetime.

Patriotism is a crutch too. Nations are unnatural states of human organization, what Kurt Vonnegut calls "grand falloons" - artificial creations holding people together with images, ideas, and symbols. Human beings evolved in small groups in which natural bonds of kin, sexual attraction, and mutual interest in survival served to protect frail individuals from an unhospitable world. Patriotism taps into these same inherent human drives for social association, family ties, and protection.

As far as America goes, it has serious problems. As a psychiatrist starting my training, I see them everywhere because they manifest themselves in absolutely destroyed lives. Still, when I compare what I see here to what I've seen in the 3rd world, I'm convinced I live in a basically good nation. I don't take it for granted. I'm proud of it despite its flaws.

 

[Purple Haze]

This fourth of July, I will present "Old Glory" and be glad I'm free, not that the French aren't free mind you. I'll hand out sparklers to the little ones, and I'll sit in a lawn chair and have a beer with friends and family I cherish. I may even play the "Star Spangled Banner" really fucking loud on my guitar.

That's what I did last year, and the year before, and the year before.

Do I dare tell those dorks with the flags on their cars that they're not treating it with proper respect?

Not a chance...........

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

It's a great country, even people that don't like it still choose to live here.....

Great point.

That simple fact speaks volumes about our country.