Unpaid teens bag groceries for Wal-Mart

[cloudy]

ok, this pisses me off. Wal-Mart has always used some rather questionable, if legal, business practices, but this goes way too far. "Although Wal-Mart’s worldwide code of ethics expressly forbids any “associate” from working without compensation, the company’s Mexican subsidiary asserts that the grocery baggers “cannot be considered workers.”

Um, why not?

Read the full article here.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Not to shake your tree or anything cloudy, but I am reminded of the baggers that work in the military commasaries in the US. They are not paid a wage nor receive any benefits, they work strickly off of tips. And they do a wonderful job. When I was in high school I tried every year to get a job as a bagger. Not only did I compete with individuals my age but folks of all ages.

I don't know if the same customary gratitudes exsist in Mexico as they do do in the US Military commasaries, but, tradtionally you get $1 a bag if bagged properly. That includes hustling your ass out to their car and loading it up and running back for more. It was hard work. And I wanted it.

I never did get the job cuz there was a waiting list to be baggers.

Think about it. If you do a good job, you walk away with a pocket full of money. More than you can make on the clock. Even in Mexico.

 

[cloudy]

Not shake your tree or anything cloudy, but I am reminded of the baggers that work in the military commasaries in the US. They are not paid a wage nor receive any benefits, they work strickly off of tips. And they do a wonderful job. When I was in high school I tried every year to get a job as a bagger. Not only did I compete with individuals my age but folks of all ages.

I don't know if the same customary gratitudes exsist in Mexico as they do do in the US Military commasaries, but, tradtionally you get $1 a bag if bagged properly. That includes hustling your ass out to their car and loading it up and running back for more. It was hard work. And I wanted it.

I never did get the job cuz there was a waiting list to be baggers.

Think about it. If you do a good job, you walk away with a pocket full of money. More than you can make on the clock. Even in Mexico.

Maybe.

It's not so much that they're unpaid that bugs me, its Wal-Mart's ducking and dodging around the issue....the bald-faced hypocrisy, along with the fact that they could afford to pay them more than the min. wage without even noticing it was gone.

 

[Darkniciad]

Unless it's vastly different anywhere other than where I've been, the cashiers bag everything in all US stores and nobody is taking it out to your car without a special request - there aren't any bag boys. I have no idea if such is the case anywhere else overseas.

All I see here is them taking advantage of local custom that provides an additional level of service at their stores. They aren't using unpaid workers for services typically provided by paid employees anywhere that I know of. In the process, whether they give a rat's behind or not, they're providing the opportunity for the teens to make money that they likely need badly.

What if they decided to prevent the teens from bagging groceries for tips now, returning to their standard business model in response to the criticism? I'd imagine that there will be a lot of people lambasting them for taking away the income from the teens.

To take it away, they have to be providing it.

They're taking advantage of the custom to their profit, but the teens are profiting as well. If anyone tried this at a US store, they'd run them off the lot for loitering. All I see here is a symbiotic relationship where both parties come out better than they would otherwise.

Well, there's a big target on my chest - but oh well. That's how I feel about it.

 

[cloudy]

Unless it's vastly different anywhere other than where I've been, the cashiers bag everything in all US stores and nobody is taking it out to your car without a special request - there aren't any bag boys. I have no idea if such is the case anywhere else overseas.

You're wrong. I can name three stores less than five miles from me, right off the top of my head, that still do this without asking for everyone, and provide paid jobs for people that have developmental disabilities, and older, retired workers who would like some additional income.

What if they decided to prevent the teens from bagging groceries for tips now, returning to their standard business model in response to the criticism? I'd imagine that there will be a lot of people lambasting them for taking away the income from the teens.

To take it away, they have to be providing it.

I would agree with you except that these teens are working in the store, not out in the parking lot. Imagine the reaction if I went to my local Wal-Mart, announced I was going to bag for tips, and just went to work. How long before I was thrown out on my ass?

It reeks of exploitation of a local custom for profit, while still trying to ride your high horse of "not allowing any employee to perform work without compensation." Its hypocritical.

 

[R. Richard]

Cloudy:
I can appreciate your outrage. On the surface, no one should work without wages. However, look at the key line from the story:

"But in Mexico City, for example, the 4,300 teenagers who work in Wal-Mart’s retail stores free of charge dwarf similar numbers laboring unpaid for Mexican competitors like Comercial Mexicana (715) and Gigante (427)."

There are 4,300 teenagers working bagging and delivering merchandise to customer's cars. The teenagers have to be at least neatly dressed upper-lower class teenagers [otherwise they would run away with the merchandise.] There are 4,300 of them. You don't get 4,300 neatly dressed teenagers reporting to work at Wal-Mart unless they are making what they consider good money. Probably, they make more than the Mexican minimum wage, what is what Wal-Mart would pay them. If the situation were 'set right,' the teenagers would undoubtedly lose money.

If you understood the situation in Mexico, you would realize that almost every middle class Mexican family has a maid. The maid, on the surface, basically works for room, board and a few clothes. If is, on the surface, a form of slavery. However, the maid lives in a middle class world and will attract a husband who at least has the hope of a decent job, instead of a guy trying to make a living farming a very few hectares of land in a rural village, lacking even basic medical or educational services. If the maid comes from deep in the interior of, say the Yucatan, the problem is even worse.

 

[Darkniciad]

You're wrong. I can name three stores less than five miles from me, right off the top of my head, that still do this without asking for everyone, and provide paid jobs for people that have developmental disabilities, and older, retired workers who would like some additional income.

I'll take your word for it. I've just never seen it anywhere that I know of. I've seen greeters and even cashiers from the circumstances you list, but I've never seen a bag-boy in any Wal-Mart I've ever been in. Of course, that's limited to portions of a few states ( Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Ohio, and Texas. Maybe Michigan and Minnesota... It's been too long )

I would agree with you except that these teens are working in the store, not out in the parking lot. Imagine the reaction if I went to my local Wal-Mart, announced I was going to bag for tips, and just went to work. How long before I was thrown out on my ass?

It reeks of exploitation of a local custom for profit, while still trying to ride your high horse of "not allowing any employee to perform work without compensation." Its hypocritical.

I guess I'm a little numb to the hypocrites in business. I more or less expect it to one degree or another, and just look at the bottom line. To me, that bottom line here is that there are teens going home with money that they wouldn't have in their pockets otherwise, and they're not doing something illegal or dangerous to earn it. At the very least, they have to develop a sense of pride in their work and a decent ability to interact with their fellow human beings if they want to earn good tips, too. Wal-Mart probably doesn't give a damn, but I'm sure the kids do.

 

[cloudy]

I'll take your word for it. I've just never seen it anywhere that I know of. I've seen greeters and even cashiers from the circumstances you list, but I've never seen a bag-boy in any Wal-Mart I've ever been in. Of course, that's limited to portions of a few states ( Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Ohio, and Texas. Maybe Michigan and Minnesota... It's been too long )

I may have misunderstood you. I've never seen a bagger in Wal-Mart, but these I was thinking of are all larger, chain-type grocery stores.

I guess I'm a little numb to the hypocrites in business. I more or less expect it to one degree or another, and just look at the bottom line. To me, that bottom line here is that there are teens going home with money that they wouldn't have in their pockets otherwise, and they're not doing something illegal or dangerous to earn it. At the very least, they have to develop a sense of pride in their work and a decent ability to interact with their fellow human beings if they want to earn good tips, too. Wal-Mart probably doesn't give a damn, but I'm sure the kids do.

I hope I never get numb to hypocrisy, to be honest.

There is that aspect of it, the teens earning some money, but when I consider the company's overall practices, ie, firing full-time workers and replacing them with part-time to avoid paying benefits, schooling their workers on how to apply for welfare, etc., and then this on top of it, it makes me angry. How much more should they be able to get away with with impunity?

When will their barely-legal business practices stir some outrage, some reprisal? Is anything and everything done in pursuit of the almighty dollar by this company okay?

 

[TheAntiRebel]

I bagged in high school for a unionized grocery store. Not only did I make $6.50 an hour (mind you, this was only five or so years ago), but little old ladies felt compelled to give us tips. We were supposed to refuse tips though, and since that was a violation of union rules, the manager could fire you if he saw you accepting a tip.

 

[Darkniciad]

I may have misunderstood you. I've never seen a bagger in Wal-Mart, but these I was thinking of are all larger, chain-type grocery stores.

Looking back at it, I didn't state Wal-Mart in the original post. Of course there are numerous stores that employ baggers - even full-time baggers that double as stockers. I did the reverse job ( stocker who doubled as a bagger when necessary ) for eleven years. It was nothing unusual to make half of what I made in my hourly wage just in tips in the last couple hours that the store was open on the weekend. I worked nights, and I was only scheduled to show up just before closing.

I hope I never get numb to hypocrisy, to be honest.

There is that aspect of it, the teens earning some money, but when I consider the company's overall practices, ie, firing full-time workers and replacing them with part-time to avoid paying benefits, schooling their workers on how to apply for welfare, etc., and then this on top of it, it makes me angry. How much more should they be able to get away with with impunity?

When will their barely-legal business practices stir some outrage, some reprisal? Is anything and everything done in pursuit of the almighty dollar by this company okay?

When you look at the entire retail industry - this is the norm. Wal-Mart just happens to be bigger. I spent eleven years in the business, from the time I was 18 until I started working from the other end, loading the trucks instead of unloading them ( If the jackasses who loaded my trucks got paid what I do, they didn't deserve it ) You usually have about 1/4 of your employees who are stable. The rest are rotating no matter whether they're full time or part time. The work is more or less thankless, hellish around anything resembling a holiday or a storm, and the pay is hardly lifestyles of the rich and famous. People simply don't stick with it long. You hire in part-timers, and promote the ones who are worth a damn, if any are. Half of them will still end up quitting.

Wal-Mart is no scummier than any nationwide chain, or even a small 30 some-odd store chain confined to a small area in my experience. They pretty much follow the standard business model - they're just doing it on a far larger scale. I've only worked for them by proxy ( they once owned the company I work for now, until Berkshire Hathoway bought us up a few years ago ) but I certainly have experience from the small scale to the nationwide within the business. I've been in middle-management, making the recommendations for hiring, firing, and promoting. I've had to fight tooth and nail to put somebody on full time to keep them around. I've fired full-timers who quit pulling their weight or started stealing and hired two part-timers to replace them until I found one that was worth keeping.

There's profit seeking in there, certainly, but there's also simple necessity. The retail business if fickle as blazes. All it takes is one mistake to send someone across the street, and once someone moves, it's hell to get them back. People develop relationships with where they shop, it's just part of the business. They'll pay more for something rather than going to two or three stores for the bargains.

Anyway, I'll quit rambling. I tend to do that, especially on too little sleep.

I bagged in high school for a unionized grocery store. Not only did I make $6.50 an hour (mind you, this was only five or so years ago), but little old ladies felt compelled to give us tips. We were supposed to refuse tips though, and since that was a violation of union rules, the manager could fire you if he saw you accepting a tip.

Don't even get me started on unions in retail. Suffice to say, I would never have worked for a unionized store again in my life after leaving the one I stupidly stumbled into. They're fine for part-timers or the lazy, but if you actually show up to do your job and stay around for full-time, all you get is screwed for your weekly contribution to somebody's campaign fund. I lost too many benefits in the transition from non-union to union to count.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

My first job was as a deliveryman for a lithographer, way back in the day. I was paid by tips exclusively. There were weeks I made little and weeks I made much.

I don't think there's a particularly wrong or malicious philosophy behind jobs like that--but then, I believe in a free market.

 

[S-Des]

Don't even get me started on unions in retail. Suffice to say, I would never have worked for a unionized store again in my life after leaving the one I stupidly stumbled into. They're fine for part-timers or the lazy, but if you actually show up to do your job and stay around for full-time, all you get is screwed for your weekly contribution to somebody's campaign fund. I lost too many benefits in the transition from non-union to union to count.

Trust me, you don't need to limit that comment to retail. One day I will get up the urge to fight and start a thread about unions. Living in Chicago, we have probably the most crooked ones in the nation (we actually elected Hoffa's kid because he was the more honest of the two choices). My father & brother worked their entire life for unions whose leadership stole millions (leaving the pensions bankrupt) and gave away the rest to political candidates whose votes kept the union kingpins in office long enough to steal anything left. My nephew is dealing with it right now, after finishing first in his class and first in a state competition for his chosen field, only to wind up sitting on his ass because he can't get into the union so he can't work (wrong last name ). Unions might work in some industries, or at least for some time, but anyone who thinks that congress is the most corrupt body in America (or that corporations are) hasn't followed our unions closely.

BTW, I worked for less than $3/hr for Dominos while attending college. My tips were more than triple my salary. I've had offers for jobs that were no income, but promised good wages in tips, but I've never chosen to take one. I think there's a very thin line there that would be way too easy to cross. Even if it's much smaller than your total income, everyone deserves a wage. If you're working for the company, you should get something as an employee.

 

[rgraham666]

And people in the management of corporations do the same. Often legally.

Evil is a human thing. Not a union or corporate thing.

 

[Darkniciad]

And people in the management of corporations do the same. Often legally.

Evil is a human thing. Not a union or corporate thing.

Yes, but I expect the company to try to screw me, and I'm not paying them to fuck me over, they're paying me.

As long as we're on the subject of hypocrites - the unions I've had experience with rank right up there with Wal-Mart or anybody else.

 

[cloudy]

Yes, but I expect the company to try to screw me, and I'm not paying them to fuck me over, they're paying me.

As long as we're on the subject of hypocrites - the unions I've had experience with rank right up there with Wal-Mart or anybody else.

My degree is in Labor Relations. Unions had a purpose at one time, but they've outlived their usefulness for the most part.

And, as far as retail goes...I was in retail management for close to 20 years, so I've seen it all.

I agree with Des: if they're working for the company, they deserve a wage.

 

[Darkniciad]

My degree is in Labor Relations. Unions had a purpose at one time, but they've outlived their usefulness for the most part.

And, as far as retail goes...I was in retail management for close to 20 years, so I've seen it all.

I agree with Des: if they're working for the company, they deserve a wage.

I don't think they've outlived their usefulness, but I do think that people need to take them back from the scumballs who've turned them into nothing more than the same sort of corrupt corporations they're supposed to counter.

We have laws and regulations in place now, but how long would they last without organized labor to stand in the way of corrupt politicians reversing every forward stride?

Every state needs true right-to-work. If you want to be in the union - fine. If not, you negotiate with the company just like you would in a non-union job. Make the unions actually do something for the employees, instead of having huge safe-havens in states where you have no choice but to take whatever they want to give you, because you can't tell them to go to hell. Even in the states where you can tell them to go to hell, you currently end up paying dues to the jackasses anyway, and the company still can't really negotiate with you on their own terms.

Get rid of those two monopolies, and the unions will have to start doing their job as described again.

 

[rgraham666]

Negotiations before unions.

Employee: After twenty years of working for this company I'd like to negotiate…

Employer: Get the hell out of here. You're fired. I can get a better person than you for twelve cents a day. And you're never working again.

And the employee never worked again.

Shrugs. Corporations and unions are tools. Useful in their place but only in their place. They're neither good nor evil. That's something only people can be.

 

[JPMMURPHY]

Sorry Cloudy. You’ve been bamboozled. I’ve watched this story a couple of days now and, living in Mexico City, have some comments.

In the original article in MSNBC there was mention of comments by an NGO (Non
Government Organization). NGO’s are really (in my opinion) corporate offices designed to comment on and influence political action in their favor. You’ll also find a comment in the MSNBC article by the Work Minister decrying Walmart’s practices.

Here’s the skinny. Yes, Walmart is an economic force in the country. My wife and I are both glad. They have systematically driven down the cost of retail goods (including groceries) since arriving. But the ‘awful practice of not paying their bag boys (and girls)’ was put in place over six decades ago by the then ruling party – the PRI. And, it is still practiced by EVERYONE that has baggers. Not just the ones mentioned in the article – EVERYONE. It is simply a condition of the economic and competitive universe of Mexico and Walmart, just like anyone else coming here to do business, has toed the line in hiring and employment practices. That really is what any business does when going into a market.

I’m also fairly certain that the bag boys and girls involved aren’t really that happy about this article. Minimum wage is about $4.50 USC per day with several contract restrictions that would eliminate flexibility in work schedule that lets these kids work around their school schedule. At the same time, I have no doubt these kids are making above full shift minimum working about four hours a day. They would all be very upset if Walmart changed the rules and they had to stop working. Of course, then the Work Ministry would be making other comments about the Big Bad Wolfe from the north.

The article (I suspect provoked by the NGO which, while mentioned, goes un-named in the article) and the comment by the Work Minister is simply another case of America bashing that is REALLY directed at the current ruling party – The PAN.

And this was done through the US news services because the instigators knew it wouldn’t fly in Mexico. Until it hit MSNBC there was NO mention of it here.

I love ya Cloudy, but ya been bamboozled.

 

[R. Richard]

JPMMurphy:
Thanks for the info. As I suspected, the situation is just a normal business practice in Mexico. It is easy to project the conditions under which we live in the USA to another country where the same conditions don't apply.

 

[JPMMURPHY]

Just a few more thoughts on this… then I’ll get off my mango crate and take my chipotle sauce home. I will leave the half bottle of tequila and bag of limes ----

Any business considering expansion into a new market, be it a county away, a state away, or a country away, takes their business formula and works very hard at changing it and adapting it to the economic, fiscal, labor, and market rules of the proposed new environment. Some of the changes they are forced to undertake are advantageous and others are not.

Walmart is getting a free ride on their bag boys and girls. At the same time, they’re taking a shellacking on their fiscal responsibilities. The tax structure in Mexico (including, and more importantly – importation) is a ball buster. They pay through the nose for the right to do business in Mexico. Just as I’m sure they do in China.

All Walmart is doing is good business, playing by the rules of the local playground.

No, I don’t love Walmart. Nor do I own part of company (I wish!). But I’ve been doing business in Mexico for 21 years and know a little something about business AND Mexico.

I put it in another post several months ago. Just because you get off the plane in Mexico (or any other country in the world) and see a Coke billboard, Rightguard Ad, police in uniforms, and taxi drivers that put the NY crazies to shame, don’t make the mistake of thinking that just because it looks like the US – that it is the US.

Looking like a duck, walking like a duck, and talking like a Spanish speaking duck does not make Mexico a duck. It is a whole nother animal. Expectations, interactions, and responses should all be adjusted accordingly.

 

[DarkBee]

I love my country when I hear stories like these. I live in the Netherlands, where there is a fixed minimum wage employees get, according to age. Usually included in the salary is something for your pension and social securities, which are available for everyone.
If you can't work for what reason, even if you just don't want to work (they're working on bringing this down), you get money from the government too.
Temporary employment agencies are a blessing too: people who's work is getting other people jobs! Hope they will find something nice for me too. Actually I could start next monday, but I'm gone for a week unfortunately.

 

[R. Richard]

Looking like a duck, walking like a duck, and talking like a Spanish speaking duck does not make Mexico a duck. It is a whole nother animal. Expectations, interactions, and responses should all be adjusted accordingly.

Pardon senor, but you are a couple weeks behind in your mordida. See to it OR ELSE!

 

[JPMMURPHY]

Pardon senor, but you are a couple weeks behind in your mordida. See to it OR ELSE!

Chinga tu putisima madre cabron!!!! Ooops, wait. Sorry oficial. How much was that this week?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I know this isn't going to be very popular here... but the idea that the company owes anyone anything is fucked up--its a business, the relationship is business and I don't think should be anything other than that. If they can find someone to do what I do for less, then my inflated sense of self-worth needs a reality-check.

In addition, the idea that the "big scary corporations" are just eliminating the costs of labor willy-nilly is naive and ridiculous. My father is a great example of a contrary to some ideas already put forth on here.

He's a parts clerk with a GM dealership--he's been there fifteen years. The parts house has been mostly the same since the beginning--two clerks and a manager. A simple operation that does seven figures of business a year.

He makes about $24,000 a year (didn't start out that way, either)--with his commission he makes about $30k and change a year. He's seen eight co-workers come and go. Young men and women who think of entitlement and don't think they can manage on what they work for and want more or better or else. They don't like standing on their feet for eight/ten hours a day. They don't like working six days a week.

He's seen four managers come and go.

They've offered him parts manager twice. The last two times they changed it over. He doesn't want it--my father never went to college or anything and doesn't think he's got it in him to be a numbers-cruncher. So, the first time they said "Johnny, we want you to take this parts manager job now that its open" he said "You can't find someone to do my job and I don't want to lose my commission in the transition". Basically, he's never missed a day of work, he works hard, and he's reliable and dependable and good at what he does. It's not rocket science and, yes, anyone /can/ do it. But finding someone in this day and age who'll be there early and stay late and do the work is harder and harder each year. If he left the counter, sales would drop, if sales drop his commission drops.

So, another three years go by and the parts manager transfers somewhere else and they say "Johnny, you need to take this job". He says "No. But if I have to help train another manager and keep holding up my end of the counter, I want more money". They said "Well, we'll get back to you."

And two days later they said "What happens if we don't get you more money?" and he said "I'll have to find another job." They doubled his commission and he gets to take every other Saturday off, now.

I'm not saying that opportunity for many people is free and unlimited or that laziness is the number one cause of bad wages or employee lay-offs... but positioning is a big deal and one of the most important parts of any occupation.

Positioning.

If you haven't read "Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind" or taken time to not just understand, but wholly commit to it, you're in for a bad work-life.

Do your job. Do it well. Be the best there is at it. Whether that's mopping floors or selling parts or managing profits-and-losses or developing industrial chemicals or programming shit. Go to work every day and do your job, all day, with excellence and enthusiasm and a forward mental positioning.

Business is business. The least important things are the first to go in any desire to make more money--but if you're positioned in such a way that you thoroughly important and clearly an asset, you won't be part of the first cut.

There /are/ bad companies out there. I know that. There are companies that are make bad business choices. There are companies that don't have the foresight to invest in their people. But we cannot and should not confuse "cold, necessary action" with "unfair and evil".

Its business. Not personal.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I get what Joe is saying. I'm an ex-retailer. Companies care about one thing, turning profit. They aren't your friend, they employ you. He's right, it is a business.
I hated some of the business practices my companies used. You learn to play the game and keep your job.
Joe also hit the nail on the head about people not willing to work long and hard. I busted my ass, stayed late and dragged my ass home. The pay wasn't great, but I left each day knowing I worked for my money.