Unions...What is your opinion?
- Thread starter *bratcat*
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rambling man
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Where I come from, unions eliminated mining conditions in the most isolated hollows that vascillated somewhere between serfdom and slavery. They fought with remarkable bravery against county governments that resembled Central American right-wing dictatorships. Violence often erupted that resembled El Salvador in the 80s, mutilated bodies found hanging from telephone poles, massacres, etc. Unions were right in the teens and early 20s. They were not revolutionary or Bolshevist, but actually conservative. They were conservative in that they fought to secure for workers the rights that companies and repressive local governments stole from them.
That said, I lean against modern unions. I saw waves of union violence in my hometown growing up during strikes. This violence affected and hurt many people who were not a part of the strikes on either side. This also occured in the absence of any government intervention either way. The law prevented the state police from doing anything and the county sheriff's department stayed as far away as possible. My best friend was almost shot in his bedroom while doing homework because his brother was a replacement worker (luckily the bullet missed, but not by much.)
It is also interesting that as time goes by, unions have grown more and more sympatico with big business because of the growth of the environmental movement in recent years.
That said, I lean against modern unions. I saw waves of union violence in my hometown growing up during strikes. This violence affected and hurt many people who were not a part of the strikes on either side. This also occured in the absence of any government intervention either way. The law prevented the state police from doing anything and the county sheriff's department stayed as far away as possible. My best friend was almost shot in his bedroom while doing homework because his brother was a replacement worker (luckily the bullet missed, but not by much.)
It is also interesting that as time goes by, unions have grown more and more sympatico with big business because of the growth of the environmental movement in recent years.
Ambrosious
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They aren't too bad, until I cut one up and it makes me cry. I do love the taste though, especially sauteed in butter.
Weird Harold
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*bratcat* said:
My first full time job required that I join a union. I will NEVER take another job that requires union membership.
Unions have done a great deal to improve the working conditions over the years, and in some circumstances, they're still needed.
However, my experiences with unions have all been un-complimentary to the unions. Working under strict union rules about when to take a break, and how long the break can last; Promotions based solely on senority without regard to qualifications; shop stewards who are more concerned with their petty powers over other workers than with what shop stewards duties should be; and a host of other niggling little details make union membership absolutely abhorent to me.
cymbidia
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I'm a teacher.
Teachers have to join unions.
Even if you don't ever intend to be at all active in the local branch of your regional/state/national teacher's union, the dues and other bits of cash are taken directly from your check before it ever gets to you.
There's much that was very good about Teacher's Unions, when they were formed. However, i think that they've almost outlived their usefullness now. For instance, there's almost no way to fire a bad teacher. I'm not talking a teacher that breaks the law by having sex with her 6th grade student, i'm talking just a plain, run-of-the-mill, tired-of-teaching, have-no-liking-for-students, waiting-for-retirement kinda teacher. There's no way to ease someone who is *not* doing a good job out of a classroom (where they might be scarring students, year after year, with thier incredible apathy).
That's just wrong.
If someone can't/won't do the job, get them out of there.
The unions won't allow it, though, so the bad teacher lives on, year after year, shorting every kid that comes through the classroom.
That's just one of the reasons that i believe teacher's unions are no longer working to benefit the good of my profession.
Teachers have to join unions.
Even if you don't ever intend to be at all active in the local branch of your regional/state/national teacher's union, the dues and other bits of cash are taken directly from your check before it ever gets to you.
There's much that was very good about Teacher's Unions, when they were formed. However, i think that they've almost outlived their usefullness now. For instance, there's almost no way to fire a bad teacher. I'm not talking a teacher that breaks the law by having sex with her 6th grade student, i'm talking just a plain, run-of-the-mill, tired-of-teaching, have-no-liking-for-students, waiting-for-retirement kinda teacher. There's no way to ease someone who is *not* doing a good job out of a classroom (where they might be scarring students, year after year, with thier incredible apathy).
That's just wrong.
If someone can't/won't do the job, get them out of there.
The unions won't allow it, though, so the bad teacher lives on, year after year, shorting every kid that comes through the classroom.
That's just one of the reasons that i believe teacher's unions are no longer working to benefit the good of my profession.
rambling man
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Tenure is a good thing when it protects innovative teachers' academic freedom. It is a bad thing when it protects and promotes apathy.
What is a better solution, though? In college, you can usually avoid a tenured professor who could give a flying rats ass about their students, but then again I believe they are generally more responsive to students than many in high schools.
The problem with public school teachers is that they are not given the respect they deserve as professionals so they act less and less like professionals and more and more like disgruntled factory workers. No respect in class, no respect from administration, no respect from parents, no respect from society in general. Their response is apathy and waitign until they get that sweet retirement plan
What is a better solution, though? In college, you can usually avoid a tenured professor who could give a flying rats ass about their students, but then again I believe they are generally more responsive to students than many in high schools.
The problem with public school teachers is that they are not given the respect they deserve as professionals so they act less and less like professionals and more and more like disgruntled factory workers. No respect in class, no respect from administration, no respect from parents, no respect from society in general. Their response is apathy and waitign until they get that sweet retirement plan
Mustang Sally
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When I was a student employee at a factory, I had to pay $11/wk union dues, although I was NOT a member of the union. The benefit for me? A much higher rate of pay than I might have had otherwise. That was nice. And that's about all I know about unions.
Oh, and that they make a damn lot of stupid grievances, so many that we can't keep up with the Labour Relations Board database at work. Those decisions are SOOO boring to read.
Oh, and that they make a damn lot of stupid grievances, so many that we can't keep up with the Labour Relations Board database at work. Those decisions are SOOO boring to read.
sometimes good, sometimes bad...
in most jobs though, there's not much use for them anymore, except to drive up the pay, which of course makes what e pay MUCH higher.
Sorry, just never been part of one, and don't care to be.
Teachers, Police, and firefighters being the only ones I think NEED to have unions.
in most jobs though, there's not much use for them anymore, except to drive up the pay, which of course makes what e pay MUCH higher.
Sorry, just never been part of one, and don't care to be.
Teachers, Police, and firefighters being the only ones I think NEED to have unions.
GuyJD
"Simply.....the best"
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I AGREE WITH WEIRD HAROLD
I've been on this job for almost a year now and there are a few things about a union that I oppose to. From my experience, Civil Service is much better.
When I began training for my job, I remember that we were told that there are 5 reasons that you can get fired for instantly: Theft, Sleeping, Drugs/Alcohol, Fighting, Attendance. However, I can recall each of those offense being committed by my coworkers when I was with Civil Service and no one was ever fired for it. Civil Service conducts hearings and investigations before they terminate your employment, whereas unions will let you go instantly. Thier investigation, if any, would last a year or two before you're ever back on the job.
I truly disagree with the seniority system. We have one guy with us now who has about 3 or 4 years seniority over most of us, yet he haven't a clue of how things are run in the shop because he has a bidded job that he's required to do daily. To have him as a leader and trying to "run the show" is ridiculous. While Civil Service promotes according to seniority, job performance overrides seniority. Civil Service would promote a guy who's been on the job for 2 years with great performance before they promote a guy of 5 years and 3 years of poor attendence.
I've been on this job for almost a year now and there are a few things about a union that I oppose to. From my experience, Civil Service is much better.
When I began training for my job, I remember that we were told that there are 5 reasons that you can get fired for instantly: Theft, Sleeping, Drugs/Alcohol, Fighting, Attendance. However, I can recall each of those offense being committed by my coworkers when I was with Civil Service and no one was ever fired for it. Civil Service conducts hearings and investigations before they terminate your employment, whereas unions will let you go instantly. Thier investigation, if any, would last a year or two before you're ever back on the job.
I truly disagree with the seniority system. We have one guy with us now who has about 3 or 4 years seniority over most of us, yet he haven't a clue of how things are run in the shop because he has a bidded job that he's required to do daily. To have him as a leader and trying to "run the show" is ridiculous. While Civil Service promotes according to seniority, job performance overrides seniority. Civil Service would promote a guy who's been on the job for 2 years with great performance before they promote a guy of 5 years and 3 years of poor attendence.
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Wizard
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I find this topic intresting........ I work for a very small shop .....only 5 of us in there so it don't do much for me but friends I talk to have large companys tell me it is so hard to get ride of anyone from there job anymore......
You need proper paper work in files the right number of warnings and all the right reasons to get rid of someone.
I think this is bullshit myself we have a guy right now that just don't pull his weight and are going thru things to get rid of him now.
I myself can't speak 1st hand about unions , I have never worked where I needed to belong to one. I however living here in Pittsburgh watched the unions sell my brothers and sisters out when they worked in the steel mills.........Now the other side to the subject was that they got gready and did it to them self , they priced them self out of the ball game. I have to agree from what I watched growing up they got greedy........and they were my family.
You need proper paper work in files the right number of warnings and all the right reasons to get rid of someone.
I think this is bullshit myself we have a guy right now that just don't pull his weight and are going thru things to get rid of him now.
I myself can't speak 1st hand about unions , I have never worked where I needed to belong to one. I however living here in Pittsburgh watched the unions sell my brothers and sisters out when they worked in the steel mills.........Now the other side to the subject was that they got gready and did it to them self , they priced them self out of the ball game. I have to agree from what I watched growing up they got greedy........and they were my family.
Valdimer
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I'm part of a union.
And like you, the job I got required me to join a union, and like you, lol, *shivvers* I did so....
But I dont see it as all that bad, I just do my job, and dont really pay attention to what the union people are doing. When the represenitives come through, I chat with them, then go about my buisness. I pay like 4 bucks out of each check, for union dues, which, after my 90 probation period, I'll start to get benefits, wooohooo. And from what I hear, union benefits are better.
So, In cunclusion to my needless ranting, its not all that bad, just dont pay attention to it, and do your job.
*steps down from stage*
And like you, the job I got required me to join a union, and like you, lol, *shivvers* I did so....
But I dont see it as all that bad, I just do my job, and dont really pay attention to what the union people are doing. When the represenitives come through, I chat with them, then go about my buisness. I pay like 4 bucks out of each check, for union dues, which, after my 90 probation period, I'll start to get benefits, wooohooo. And from what I hear, union benefits are better.
So, In cunclusion to my needless ranting, its not all that bad, just dont pay attention to it, and do your job.
*steps down from stage*
GuyJD
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Wizard said:
You are so right, Wizard. I know of 3 guys at my job like that:
One guy just made 3 years on the job and feels that he has enough seniority to work alot less (if at all) than the guys who's been there for decades. While we're busting our asses on the job, he's driving around the lot in a company vehicle pretending to be working. Despite the fact that I was still on probation at the time, I went to the service leader and asked him, "How long do you intend to let him walk all over you?"
I started a new shift in June of this year. We have 2 slackers on that our shift. One is on probation. He comes in at 2:30 PM but by the time I get there at 5:30 PM, he's asleep while we're receiving our assignments. The funny thing is that he's half my age and about 1/3 my size. Yet, I have more energy.
The other guy has been there one month less than me and he "picks" his own fucking assignment He will avoid work as much as possible and bullshit his way into the shop manager's office to joke around. I once asked another coworker of higher seniority, "When are you guys gonna speak up about that shit." Well, to my delight and surprise, someone did. While receiving our assignments, she simply told them "You know, maybe you 2 should do a little work once in a while. Considering we're busting our asses harder and we've been here longer than you. Why should you 2 have it easy?"
HARDKOREBJ
sweet southern guy
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unions
unions can be good for the work place.some places threaten to grt rid of you if you talk union.they just want to rule you.
unions can be good for the work place.some places threaten to grt rid of you if you talk union.they just want to rule you.
Wizard
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GuyJD,
The thing that really gets my goat is I was raised to be at work early ,(I get there 15 mintues early) this guys day after day shows up 10 mintes late. Now don't get me wrong there are a few times during the yaer folks will be late but he lives about 5 min. from work.
The first time ever I also only live about 3 city blocks away from work. He can't do anything right so I wind up with it in may lap all the time cause they know it will get done and done right......That kind of shit just burns my ass.....I told the boss they know but nothing ever gets done about it.
I think every job has one of these kind of screw ups...........
I'm right with you on the "busting our asses harder " bit.............
The thing that really gets my goat is I was raised to be at work early ,(I get there 15 mintues early) this guys day after day shows up 10 mintes late. Now don't get me wrong there are a few times during the yaer folks will be late but he lives about 5 min. from work.
The first time ever I also only live about 3 city blocks away from work. He can't do anything right so I wind up with it in may lap all the time cause they know it will get done and done right......That kind of shit just burns my ass.....I told the boss they know but nothing ever gets done about it.
I think every job has one of these kind of screw ups...........
I'm right with you on the "busting our asses harder " bit.............
G
Guest
Guest
Good question union, yes or no? Even with all of the bullshit that goes along with it... i say yes. Why? well, because with out the union i belong to i'd be making a couple of bucks above minimum wage even after all of these years with almost no benifits.
The company i work for can not call me in six months before i retire and lay me off to save them money, you see if you are salary and have been employed with them for twenty five years your chances of retiring there are not good unless you are in upper management.
Guess were i was july fourth nineteen hundred and seventy six
walking picket out on strike thats where.
i had just joined the international assocation of machinists and areospace workers. i had just joined. that strike lasted for six months. we setteled for less than we went out for. the odd thing about it was that it was the best offer from our company before or since.
Sometimies being in a union is a pain in the ass. i remember almost being run down by a car one night while walking picket. then there is the odd beer bottle or can. hell i like being cussed out for nothing.
i remember having to walk picket the next shift in the same place where some of our members got shot at. that was fun!
Than on the other hand it is damn nice to have someone to watch your back on the job and on strike.
when someone is fucked over by a company it is good to see them reinstated with full back pay.
The company i work for can not call me in six months before i retire and lay me off to save them money, you see if you are salary and have been employed with them for twenty five years your chances of retiring there are not good unless you are in upper management.
Guess were i was july fourth nineteen hundred and seventy six
walking picket out on strike thats where.
i had just joined the international assocation of machinists and areospace workers. i had just joined. that strike lasted for six months. we setteled for less than we went out for. the odd thing about it was that it was the best offer from our company before or since.
Sometimies being in a union is a pain in the ass. i remember almost being run down by a car one night while walking picket. then there is the odd beer bottle or can. hell i like being cussed out for nothing.
i remember having to walk picket the next shift in the same place where some of our members got shot at. that was fun!
Than on the other hand it is damn nice to have someone to watch your back on the job and on strike.
when someone is fucked over by a company it is good to see them reinstated with full back pay.
G
Guest
Guest
The standard of living
in the U.S.A. is high because of Unions. The improvments they gained helped Union and Non-Union alike. Child labor laws are the result of Unions, safety in the work place is the result of Unions. The list goes on and on, but they are not perfect.
in the U.S.A. is high because of Unions. The improvments they gained helped Union and Non-Union alike. Child labor laws are the result of Unions, safety in the work place is the result of Unions. The list goes on and on, but they are not perfect.
Cheyenne
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I was in a union once in my life- as a teenager when I was required to join. Now I see unions from management's perspective. Our non-union employees are better off than the union locations. It isn't uncommon for locations who vote in a union to vote the union right back out a year later once they realize all the promises that the union made just aren't going to happen.
If you are in a union, you aren't allowed to participate in the 401(k) plan. You lose the company match of your contributions in addition to the opportunity to save for your retirement in the tax postponed account. The raises we give non-union workers tend to be HIGHER than the raises the unions negotiate for their members. Union or non-union, you are fired immediately if you fail a drug/alcohol test. But nonunion employees get more chances to improve before being fired for anything else. They also have a chance at getting much better severance if there is a downsizing.
If you are in a union, you aren't allowed to participate in the 401(k) plan. You lose the company match of your contributions in addition to the opportunity to save for your retirement in the tax postponed account. The raises we give non-union workers tend to be HIGHER than the raises the unions negotiate for their members. Union or non-union, you are fired immediately if you fail a drug/alcohol test. But nonunion employees get more chances to improve before being fired for anything else. They also have a chance at getting much better severance if there is a downsizing.
registered "^^"
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Re: The standard of living
that was me.......damned near forgot how to log in......first time i was bumped out!
Unregistered said:
that was me.......damned near forgot how to log in......first time i was bumped out!
M
miles
Guest
Unions are quickly becoming dinosaurs. Most are driven by a profit motive, and some by organized crime. What amazes me is the people who accept a job knowing in advance how much they will be paid and what the working conditions are like, then piss and moan about their wages and working conditions.
Kind of like people who buy homes near major airports and later complain about the noise.
Kind of like people who buy homes near major airports and later complain about the noise.
d_arthur
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I'll confess that I'm not the most informed about unions but from what I can tell they make work just a bit more of a pain in the ass for my department.
We recently moved from one building to another and it takes two union people to move a phone...yes, one stupid phone takes two big ole' guys to move it. One guy gets down on all fours and plugs in the cord while the other holds the phone. The need for two people to move and set up a phone is really beyond me.
You know I never though about it but maybe the other union guy is there to protect the guy on all fours from getting booted in the ass. I know there have been times when I'd have liked to boot a union worker or two. That said, I've never booted them because most of them are big guys who could kick my butt into next week if i pulled something like that.
We recently moved from one building to another and it takes two union people to move a phone...yes, one stupid phone takes two big ole' guys to move it. One guy gets down on all fours and plugs in the cord while the other holds the phone. The need for two people to move and set up a phone is really beyond me.
You know I never though about it but maybe the other union guy is there to protect the guy on all fours from getting booted in the ass. I know there have been times when I'd have liked to boot a union worker or two. That said, I've never booted them because most of them are big guys who could kick my butt into next week if i pulled something like that.
GuyJD
"Simply.....the best"
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Wizard said:GuyJD,
I think every job has one of these kind of screw ups...........
I'm right with you on the "busting our asses harder " bit.............
WIZARD,
We may get the last laugh. The service leader has already warned the newbie about sleeping on the job and in the open where everyone can see him.
As for the guy who avoids work? He's put in for a transfer to another division. I just know that they will work his ass like a company mule when he gets there.
Either way, one of my coworkers told me that neither of them have a chance when we go through our next shakeup (bid for schedule and days off).
p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
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A very interesting thread...
giving me a definite sense of deja-vu. I never realised that you had union problems today in the US. I thought that most relationships between government and union had been sorted out. And that the strength of the unions had been moderated.
Reading the posts I saw once again the UK during the 1960-1980 period when, after the election of the first Labour Government since WWII, the unions were allowed to go from strength to strength until they became over powerful with far too much influence on the governments of the day to the detriment of the country as a whole. Pay awards went through the roof with 18%, then 20%, then 24% rises becoming the norm. Inflation followed suit with the levels rising to the mid 20% as well.
Eventually the stock market fell to the 300 mark and the IMF had to be called in to bail the country out. The UK was, in effect, bankrupt. The government was quite content to let the IMF take the lead because any austere measures they had to impose they could blame on that organisation.
We had the infamous "Winter of Discontent" when bodies remained unburied, waste was left to rot in garbage sacks, electricity rationing was imposed and the whole of the country's workforce was put on a three day week. Rough days and not that long ago.
The situation brought Margaret Thatcher to power under a stong anti-union ticket which ended in the miner strikes of the 1980s where whole familes in the mining communities were allowed to go hungry and bucket collections were made for the miners at every conceivable collection point. Despite the general distrust, and in some cases hatred that the public had for the unions in general, they had a lot of sympathy for the miners. It was Maggie Thatcher and the Conservative Government who destroyed the power of the unions and brought everything back under control.
The only thing she ever did that was wholeheartedly supported by the electorate.
Unions lost their teeth under sweeping new laws that came into force. People had the right to refuse to join a union, whereas previously they had no choice but to join, secret ballots were made compulsory whereas previously decisions were made by a show of hands, the right to strike was curtailed to take into account that unions had to ballot the membership and give a period of notice before taking any action.
But then it slowly went the other way. People no longer had any protection from delinquent employers, job security became a thing of the past, part-time and casual workers who despite what they were called actually worked full-time and more hours. Pay rises rarely kept pace with inflation. The age of the market force and greed came into existence and the general working blokes suffered again as prices were pushed up by people with the money whilst they were left behind with niggardly pay rises. There was no-one to speak up on their behalf.
Maggie became the most hated politician since WWII (ain't people fickle!) and was finally kicked out to make way for John Major then our present Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
I personally don't think working people who are part of large organisations such as Government or global companies can afford NOT to have a union. Their working space is just too large to do their own negotiating.
But unions have a huge responsibility as well. They must get out of the "them" and "us" mentality (which hopefully has happened in the UK, but it's still early days), and look upon sensible, non-extreme behaviour as the norm.
And I think we shouldn't forget that unions are not only there for pay rises but have a vast range of services at their disposal. Education, purchasing power for members, members insurance, scholarships for members children, widows and children paymments, sickness and hospital benefit, strike pay funds, holiday funds and so on and so forth.
They do more good than bad. But they must remain under control without losing sight of the reason for their existence. To protect the rights of their members.
giving me a definite sense of deja-vu. I never realised that you had union problems today in the US. I thought that most relationships between government and union had been sorted out. And that the strength of the unions had been moderated.
Reading the posts I saw once again the UK during the 1960-1980 period when, after the election of the first Labour Government since WWII, the unions were allowed to go from strength to strength until they became over powerful with far too much influence on the governments of the day to the detriment of the country as a whole. Pay awards went through the roof with 18%, then 20%, then 24% rises becoming the norm. Inflation followed suit with the levels rising to the mid 20% as well.
Eventually the stock market fell to the 300 mark and the IMF had to be called in to bail the country out. The UK was, in effect, bankrupt. The government was quite content to let the IMF take the lead because any austere measures they had to impose they could blame on that organisation.
We had the infamous "Winter of Discontent" when bodies remained unburied, waste was left to rot in garbage sacks, electricity rationing was imposed and the whole of the country's workforce was put on a three day week. Rough days and not that long ago.
The situation brought Margaret Thatcher to power under a stong anti-union ticket which ended in the miner strikes of the 1980s where whole familes in the mining communities were allowed to go hungry and bucket collections were made for the miners at every conceivable collection point. Despite the general distrust, and in some cases hatred that the public had for the unions in general, they had a lot of sympathy for the miners. It was Maggie Thatcher and the Conservative Government who destroyed the power of the unions and brought everything back under control.
The only thing she ever did that was wholeheartedly supported by the electorate.
Unions lost their teeth under sweeping new laws that came into force. People had the right to refuse to join a union, whereas previously they had no choice but to join, secret ballots were made compulsory whereas previously decisions were made by a show of hands, the right to strike was curtailed to take into account that unions had to ballot the membership and give a period of notice before taking any action.
But then it slowly went the other way. People no longer had any protection from delinquent employers, job security became a thing of the past, part-time and casual workers who despite what they were called actually worked full-time and more hours. Pay rises rarely kept pace with inflation. The age of the market force and greed came into existence and the general working blokes suffered again as prices were pushed up by people with the money whilst they were left behind with niggardly pay rises. There was no-one to speak up on their behalf.
Maggie became the most hated politician since WWII (ain't people fickle!) and was finally kicked out to make way for John Major then our present Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
I personally don't think working people who are part of large organisations such as Government or global companies can afford NOT to have a union. Their working space is just too large to do their own negotiating.
But unions have a huge responsibility as well. They must get out of the "them" and "us" mentality (which hopefully has happened in the UK, but it's still early days), and look upon sensible, non-extreme behaviour as the norm.
And I think we shouldn't forget that unions are not only there for pay rises but have a vast range of services at their disposal. Education, purchasing power for members, members insurance, scholarships for members children, widows and children paymments, sickness and hospital benefit, strike pay funds, holiday funds and so on and so forth.
They do more good than bad. But they must remain under control without losing sight of the reason for their existence. To protect the rights of their members.
