Under-18 fantasizing allowed at all?

[Sarastro]

Would it be allowed to have a story with a guy that met a 16-year-old girl, and then went home by himself, having a hot fantasy about her? There wouldn't be any actual sex involving a minor taking place.

Also, what if one has a story in which a couple of post-teens reminisce about their first time together when they were 15 or so?

Are these sorts of things allowed at all here?

~Sarastro

 

[oggbashan]

Not according to the rules of this site.

We come of age at 18 and everyone under that age is sexless in word, thought or deed.

Laurel is the only arbiter. It's her site.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think writing of a 16year old, even in a fantasy is placing a minor in a sexual situation and thus isn't allowed.

-Colly

 

[gauchecritic]

That would be like writing a story about someone writing a story about underage sex.

I don't think reference to it is barred but graphic depiction is.

Gauche

 

[mtnman2003]

Age limits like real life......

No sex happens before 18........

Flipped on the tv during lunch. Of all the channels available...
Mauri or something like that was on......
Parents giving a 15 yr-old daughter lie detector test to determine:
drugs, drinking, sex, providing drugs to her 10-yr old brother.

Results in, she confessed before the lie detector test:

38 times had sex with 11 different guys........
in excess of 100 times smoking pot.....
in excess of 10 times getting her little brother high.....
stole money, perscription drughs from parents.....
had sex for money when available......
dressed to attract more boys........

thanks to laurel, at least here we are safe!!!!

 

[CharleyH]

Would it be allowed to have a story with a guy that met a 16-year-old girl, and then went home by himself, having a hot fantasy about her? There wouldn't be any actual sex involving a minor taking place.

Also, what if one has a story in which a couple of post-teens reminisce about their first time together when they were 15 or so?

Are these sorts of things allowed at all here?

~Sarastro

 

[deliciously_naughty]

whether it's realistic or not, due to the legal issues, Laurel doesn't allow any under 18 action

 

[Sarastro]

>That would be like writing a story about someone writing a story about underage sex.

Perhaps... although I don't think a fantasy equals (or is necessarily intended to approve of) actual sex.

>I don't think reference to it is barred but graphic depiction is.

All right, I'll just reference it, then! The following is the relevant part of a work in progress (won't be submitted in full for some time yet):

---

A speeding mountain bike came to an abrupt stop, wheels screeching, pebbles flying, just outside the gate to the front yard. Its cool rider was dressed in a tight-fitting, blue aerobics outfit. Slowly raising my eyes, first to her sizable breasts and then to her eye-level, I saw a gum-chewing teenage face shining at me through a willful cloud of raven-black hair. She lolled her head, put one arm on the fence, and pierced me with blue eyes that positively smoldered. For a couple of seconds I stood as nailed to the ground, instantly feeling a magnetic pull between us, but then I got hold of myself. *She's just a kid!* I told myself. Yeah. Just a kid. I walked up to her to see what she wanted.

Blowing a gum-bubble and staying put, she simply scrutinized me with those indigo eyes for another few seconds. Then she said,

"Hi. You the new guy that's moving in here?"

"Why, yes, I must be," I said. I stretched forth my hand. "Seward Hyde. Pleased to make your acquaintance."

She looked at my hand, and decided to shake it. As she did so, she smiled a strange, sultry smile; not one of kindness or politeness, but rather of self-satisfaction, as if taking pleasure in being treated as an adult. She held my hand for a while longer than she needed to, and the smile she spirited my way turned decidedly erotic.

"Alexis Markson. I live over on Hillglade. With my dad."

Nervous about this strange hint of a come-on, or whatever it was, I withdrew my hand, trying to seem casual.

"Ah, yes, that would be Gordon Markson, right? The fellow who won five straight Iron Man cups back in the '80s?"

"Yeah... he's pushing for me to be in the Iron Woman 2005."

"Oh?"

"M-hm. He coaches me for five hours every day. It's kinda neat to be in shape, but I hardly even get to enjoy it 'cos he's so pushy all the time. Says I gotta get better and better. So I just got sore muscles all the time, you know?"

"Well... that's tough."

"Yeah - But I bet I can beat *you* in every single discipline! And I'm only sixteen!"

Less than half my age. An amazing feat of strength on the part of my will made me suppress the lecherous thoughts I was getting when I looked at her. I sweated and swallowed, hoping she didn't notice.

"I don't doubt that you could. I'm not really a sports guy myself." At this, the girl looked pensively at me with a finger at her sensuously open mouth, as if about to say, *Oh, I'm sure there's ONE sport you're into!* Beads of sweat trickled down my temples again. I fought to hide the effect she was having on me.

And I couldn't tell if she was doing it on purpose or not.

"Maybe I can teach you a trick or two," she said. "If you're interested...?" What was she *really* probing me for, here? I hesitated, then said,

"Well, never say never! Maybe we can... arrange something."

"Cool! See ya then... what was your name again...? Seward! And be sure to invite us to your moving-in party, eh?"

"Will do, will do. See you in a few days, Alexis." The girl pushed off from the fence and turned her bike around in perfect balance, and took off. She turned her head back to me and shouted, as she winked intimately to me,

"It's just 'Lex'!" The sound of her high-pitched, girlish voice scattered across the nearby trees and seemed to suffuse the landscape with her essence. It was more than a quarter of an hour before I was able to breathe normally again. Jesus! What a girl! What a *body*! I knew what I was going to be thinking about, come night-time...

...and boy, did I ever! [Fantasy excised! Sniff! It was the most beautiful part...]

But, in the end, I didn't want to fool myself. I could never get it on with Lex for real. No, Seward, no! Sixteen is hands-off. Altogether hands-off. There would be other fish in the sea. Plenty of others...



~Sarastro

 

[Sarastro]

Re: Re: Under-18 fantasizing allowed at all?

Hm, Pm me for the true story

But of course! It's really nothing shocking or immoral, IMO.

~Sarastro

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Sarastro, this is the kind of story that will have absolutely no chance whatsoever of being approved, in my opinion.

It doesn't even matter if in the outermost layer of reality of your story the two characters don't get involved sexually. The whole focus of the story is the fantasy of having sex with a minor. It's a statutory rape fantasy, and Laurel frowns at this sort of things.

If you take any story where a girl takes on her three cousins, her sister and the family dog at the same time, it's one thing. If she happens to be 16, the story will be rejected because it doesn't follow the rules, but she could just as easily have been 17, 19, or 25. The legal age could change. Laurel could drop the rule, and the story would be acceptable. No one would give a damn. It's what happens in life.

But what you have here is a story which deals precisely with having sex with a minor. It's not incidental, it's not just something you mention, it's the whole story!

 

[Weird Harold]

Sarastro, this is the kind of story that will have absolutely no chance whatsoever of being approved, in my opinion.

I agree that if the posted story fragment were the whole story, it wouldn't get posted.

However, as a flashback or first meeting between soulmates scene within a larger story, it would probably pass Laurel's judgement.

How close the limitation can be pressed depends in large part on complete story and how the underage relationship fits into the "artistic merit" of the piece.

 

[Sarastro]

First of all, there is no actual sex with minors involved. It is purely imagined (also in the story's own context). Secondly, this is only a tiny part of the complete story. What's supposed to happen in the long run is that two years go by, and the main character ends up getting to have the girl after all, since by then she will have come of age.

But if it can't be approved, it can't be approved. I'll just have to drop this aspect of the story.

~Sarastro

 

[Sarastro]

How close the limitation can be pressed depends in large part on complete story and how the underage relationship fits into the "artistic merit" of the piece.

Well, then I have a chance after all!

~Sarastro

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Sar

Just as long as you keep in mind....Laurel's site, Laurel's rules


You also may want to establish yourself before you try to change the rules. I can't find any stories under your name, and you've only 11 posts.

Not to say that you aren't a talented writer (I'm guessing)...it's just that it's one thing for Harold or KillerMuffin to bend the rules, and it's another for someone who is totally unproven.

just my 2 cents
DN

 

[Lauren Hynde]

First of all, there is no actual sex with minors involved. It is purely imagined (also in the story's own context). Secondly, this is only a tiny part of the complete story. What's supposed to happen in the long run is that two years go by, and the main character ends up getting to have the girl after all, since by then she will have come of age.

But if it can't be approved, it can't be approved. I'll just have to drop this aspect of the story.

~Sarastro

Ok, I was thinking of how the story would look like with the excised fantasy and nothing more.

If this excerpt (without the fantasy) is merely an intro and the real story comes two years later, it should have a fair shot.

You can't claim, however, that in the original version 'no actual sex with minors was involved'... The fact that the sex was imagined within the context of the story doesn't make a difference. If anything, it made it worse, because it dwelled specifically of the fact that she was 'forbidden fruit', as opposed to just eating it.

I'm not saying there's anything morally reproachable about having sex with a 16 year old girl. You were, though, and that's precisely what my problem was with your story: being particularly aware of the moral issue didn't stop Seward from fantasising.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Sarastro, this is the kind of story that will have absolutely no chance whatsoever of being approved, in my opinion.

It doesn't even matter if in the outermost layer of reality of your story the two characters don't get involved sexually. The whole focus of the story is the fantasy of having sex with a minor. It's a statutory rape fantasy, and Laurel frowns at this sort of things.

If you take any story where a girl takes on her three cousins, her sister and the family dog at the same time, it's one thing. If she happens to be 16, the story will be rejected because it doesn't follow the rules, but she could just as easily have been 17, 19, or 25. The legal age could change. Laurel could drop the rule, and the story would be acceptable. No one would give a damn. It's what happens in life.

But what you have here is a story which deals precisely with having sex with a minor. It's not incidental, it's not just something you mention, it's the whole story!

Actually, regardless of her age, taking on the family dog is also barred. Cousins and sisters are OK though.

 

[Sarastro]

Lauren Hynde said:
>You can't claim, however, that in the original version 'no actual sex with minors
>was involved'... The fact that the sex was imagined within the context of the story
>doesn't make a difference. If anything, it made it worse, because it dwelled specifically
>of the fact that she was 'forbidden fruit', as opposed to just eating it.
>
>I'm not saying there's anything morally reproachable about having sex with a 16 year
>old girl. You were, though, and that's precisely what my problem was with your story:
>being particularly aware of the moral issue didn't stop Seward from fantasising.

Well, that's your subjective take on it. *I'm* not saying there's anything wrong with having sex with a 16-year-old, either. Seward said it. What a character says and what the author feels may be quite different things.

And, I think your contention that a "forbidden fruit" element makes the situation worse than if it was just acted upon, is problematic. This very site abounds with stories that capitalize on making a situation (though not specifically underage sex) seem forbidden, and therefore arousing. Having the reader be aroused by the forbidden is a time-honored hallmark of erotica (and porn).

I think anal sex is a good example of this; AFAIK it is something most erotica authors write about (and look at its prevalence in porn flicks) and perhaps fantastize about, but relatively few people actually practice. Personally I don't see its attraction (nor do I write about it).

In fact, the absence of explicit (or even quite ordinary) sex in mainstream culture makes most forms of pornography itself feel forbidden and tabooish, and therefore immensely interesting, to many many people. Porn and erotica sites then overcompensate, focusing exclusively on sexual and sexualizing elements to satisfy a craving that is warped all out of proportion. I would certainly like all harmless forms of sexual expression to be "unforbidden" and normal and allowed and accepted. But it requires that everybody starts thinking of sexual acts as natural, good, ordinary and nothing to be ashamed or otherwise scurrilous about. I can assure you that I'll be the first to cheer when we get to the point when no one will feel any need to think and speak and write of sex as dirty and vulgar and smutty anymore; when people finally starts seeing sex as something purely beautiful.

That happy day probably won't be along in our lifetimes, however, and until then there will always be a certain thrill to the forbidden.

deliciously_naughty said:
>You also may want to establish yourself before you try to change the rules.
>I can't find any stories under your name, and you've only 11 posts

I submitted two (perfectly uncontroversial) stories upwards of a week ago, and another last night (with many more to come). The 3-5 days that the FAQ says it takes from submission to acceptance seems to be a slight understatement.

~Sarastro

 

[Boxlicker101]

deliciously_naughty said:
>You also may want to establish yourself before you try to change the rules.
>I can't find any stories under your name, and you've only 11 posts

I submitted two (perfectly uncontroversial) stories upwards of a week ago, and another last night (with many more to come). The 3-5 days that the FAQ says it takes from submission to acceptance seems to be a slight understatement.

~Sarastro [/B]

There is some delay in stories being posted. Stories that are to be included in the Valentine's Day Contest are getting preference, and others have to wait longer.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Actually, she's running at exactly five days now. She's whittled it down quite a bit. Anything that's been there for "over a week" is either an iffy rape story or a lot of chapters.

She don't break the rules, even for me. Some nonconsent and violent stories will get in on artistic merit, but minors only get in via human error.

The fact of the matter is that the Laurel is aware that people under 18 have sex in reality. She's aware that people write about it. She is also aware that it's a legally intelligent manuever for a pornographic site to maintain a no-minors having sex rule despite the fact that fictional stories of the same are legal. It's not prejudice or hiding from reality. It's facing the reality of owning a sex-based operation in the US where the very powerful Christian Right is screaming "protect our children."

You are more than welcome to send donations to the ACLU to help them fund the tireless effort to protect pornographers from legislative persecution if you feel that strongly about being permitted to publish fictional pedophilia.

 

[oggbashan]

The fact of the matter is that the Laurel is aware that people under 18 have sex in reality. She's aware that people write about it. She is also aware that it's a legally intelligent manuever for a pornographic site to maintain a no-minors having sex rule despite the fact that fictional stories of the same are legal. It's not prejudice or hiding from reality. It's facing the reality of owning a sex-based operation in the US where the very powerful Christian Right is screaming "protect our children."

You are more than welcome to send donations to the ACLU to help them fund the tireless effort to protect pornographers from legislative persecution if you feel that strongly about being permitted to publish fictional pedophilia.

Laurel deserves our support for the rule that minors do not have sex. It protects Literotica and this community.

We should not try to erode the rule or work around it, just accept it as final. Only adults have sex in stories posted to this site.

It does not take much effort to find groups who would do almost anything to close Literotica down.

Free Speech has responsibilities as well as rights. We should choose to support the rule. If you want to write about sex under 18 then there are other sites which allow it. This one does not.

Laurel should be thanked for her efforts.

Og

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Well, that's your subjective take on it. *I'm* not saying there's anything wrong with having sex with a 16-year-old, either. Seward said it. What a character says and what the author feels may be quite different things.

And, I think your contention that a "forbidden fruit" element makes the situation worse than if it was just acted upon, is problematic. This very site abounds with stories that capitalize on making a situation (though not specifically underage sex) seem forbidden, and therefore arousing. Having the reader be aroused by the forbidden is a time-honored hallmark of erotica (and porn).

I think anal sex is a good example of this; AFAIK it is something most erotica authors write about (and look at its prevalence in porn flicks) and perhaps fantastize about, but relatively few people actually practice. Personally I don't see its attraction (nor do I write about it).

In fact, the absence of explicit (or even quite ordinary) sex in mainstream culture makes most forms of pornography itself feel forbidden and tabooish, and therefore immensely interesting, to many many people. Porn and erotica sites then overcompensate, focusing exclusively on sexual and sexualizing elements to satisfy a craving that is warped all out of proportion. I would certainly like all harmless forms of sexual expression to be "unforbidden" and normal and allowed and accepted. But it requires that everybody starts thinking of sexual acts as natural, good, ordinary and nothing to be ashamed or otherwise scurrilous about. I can assure you that I'll be the first to cheer when we get to the point when no one will feel any need to think and speak and write of sex as dirty and vulgar and smutty anymore; when people finally starts seeing sex as something purely beautiful.

That happy day probably won't be along in our lifetimes, however, and until then there will always be a certain thrill to the forbidden.

OK, you seem to have missed my point entirely. First of all, you don't need to get so defencive about that 'You'. I don't give a damn about whether or not you regularly fuck 16 year-olds or merely fantasise about it. Here we only deal with fiction. Seward, the character in the story, thinks there is something immoral (and illegal) in getting involved with a 16 year-old, but still finds himself attracted to one.

There was nothing subjective about my take on it, it's all very clean-cut. The whole snippet you posted is about this attraction the Seward feels. About the fantasy of being sexually with a minor. The fact that she's a minor is not incidental, it's an intrinsic part of the fantasy.

Can you honestly say that simply because they don't touch each other in the outermost level of reality within the story, that means it's not about having sex with a minor? Can you honestly believe it isn't closer to what the people who made the no-underage sex rules had in mind than a regular story where one of the characters simply happens to be 16?

That snippet isn't simply a story about a 16 year-old girl having sex. That's natural. That's reality. That snippet is, no matter how you look at it, a statutory rapist fantasy. It could even be considered a paedophile fantasy, depending on who you ask.

Don't you think that is precisely why the rule exists?

 

[gauchecritic]

The line had to be drawn, 18 is where Laurel made the mark.

So what's the difference between 18 and 17? Exactly the same difference as between 16 and 15 or 13 and 12. That's why there is the distinction.

(I'm led to believe that 13 is a consentual age in some countries if not some American states)

The highest mark keeps the site well away from the lowest.

Deal with it.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

Sar., I didn't read your entry above, have no interest in you yet. We all have opinions on sex (consentual [I like Gauche's spelling], underage, whatever), but they matter not a whit re. the acceptance of your story. Just submit it. If it gets rejected for the age thing, redo it or not. I would suggest not coming back here to rant, though, unless you want a serious discussion of the topic w/o regard to Lit. rules.

best to you,

Perdita

 

[Sarastro]

Well.

I don't want to violate the rules of this site, so you can all consider me reprimanded good and well.

I will just say, however, that, ideally, I think it is all right, and preferable, for young people to have sex as soon as they have the physical maturity and capacity for sexual pleasure, which means at the onset of puberty. To me, pedophilia has to do with lecherous sexualization of pre-pubescent children, which I reject absolutely. The law may put things differently, but ultimately I consider nature's law higher than man's. And this opinion, believe it or not, is a political one and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not I am personally attracted to teenagers. Nor does that possible attraction necessarily have anything whatsoever to do with my actual sex life.

Some people tend to lose sight of the obvious difference between fantasy and reality. Almost everything that takes place in the stories on this site is obvious fantasy, and much of it is ridiculously unrealistic and couldn't really happen. Nor, I'm sure, do most stories reflect the actual sex lives or experience of the authors. So let's not get our panties in a knot here.

And by the way, I now have my two first stories online here. They have nothing to do with the topic of this thread, nor will any of my future stories.

So let's talk about something else.

~Sarastro

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I will just say, however, that, ideally, I think it is all right, and preferable, for young people to have sex as soon as they have the physical maturity and capacity for sexual pleasure, which means at the onset of puberty. To me, pedophilia has to do with lecherous sexualization of pre-pubescent children, which I reject absolutely. The law may put things differently, but ultimately I consider nature's law higher than man's. And this opinion, believe it or not, is a political one and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not I am personally attracted to teenagers. Nor does that possible attraction necessarily have anything whatsoever to do with my actual sex life.

Some people tend to lose sight of the obvious difference between fantasy and reality. Almost everything that takes place in the stories on this site is obvious fantasy, and much of it is ridiculously unrealistic and couldn't really happen. Nor, I'm sure, do most stories reflect the actual sex lives or experience of the authors. So let's not get our panties in a knot here.

For the record, I agree with you. I was sexually active when I was 16 and it didn't affect my personality significantly one way or the other. Everything I said was my take on the story and the type of fantasies it appeals to, and never tried to imply you were personally partial to them. I was just trying to explain why this snippet, were it the whole story, couldn't possibly be accepted, because its own nature.

That being said, welcome.