UK: Stay in school, get a job...or else?

Liar

now with 17% more class
Joined
Dec 4, 2003
Posts
43,715
Yes, slap a fine on the young, poor, uneducated and downtrodden. That'll work. Jeez, how about investigating why kids drop out of high school, and adress that?

I wonder... Does this also apply to rich, spoiled, blue-blooded teen brats who spend their days collecting hangovers and herpes on Ibiza while living out of their daddy's wallet? Then it might be worth it.

Oh, and to get it over with:

"Bla bla bla socialist europe blah blah blah nanny state blah blah blah slavery blah blah..."
-Whoever that might apply to

Yeah yeah, we know.

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Teenagers who refuse to work face on the spot fines

TEENAGERS who refuse to work, attend training or go to school are to be issued with on the spot fines under government proposals. Any who still fail to comply would then be taken to court where they could face further penalties.

The measures are designed to enforce a new law which will be outlined in this week’s Queen’s speech. It will say that all teenagers must remain in education, training or employment until they are 18.

The change will be phased in by raising the age to 17 in 2013 and to 18 in 2015. Details of the new “age of participation” will be outlined by Ed Balls, the children’s secretary, in a television interview today and in a speech tomorrow.

The new law will effectively outlaw “Neets”, teenagers and young people who are “not in education, employment or training”. In a speech to the Fabian Society tomorrow, Balls will put the proportion of Neets at about 10% of 16 to 18-year-olds.

On today’s Sunday Programme on GMTV, he will argue that the change is “the biggest educational reform in the last 50 years”.

Balls will admit that Britain performs poorly in terms of the numbers of teenagers who drop out of the system at the age of 16. In international league tables, he will say, Britain is “pretty much at the bottom, despite the rise in participation we’ve seen . . . the vast majority of countries have more people staying on [after 16] than we do”.

The first group to be affected will be today’s 10 and 11-year-olds and the change is likely to provoke strong arguments. When Brown first put it forward in July, a senior union figure, Geraldine Everett, chairman of the Professional Association of Teachers, said that the move was a “potential mine-field” that would “compel the disaffected to, in their perception, prolong the agony”.

Frank Field, the Labour MP and former minister, wrote in last week’s Sunday Times that a group of teenagers in his Birkenhead constituency “rolled around laughing at the idea that any government could try to lock them up in school until they became 18”.

To provide places for the teenagers, Balls will announce the creation of an extra 90,000 apprenticeships by 2013 for 16 to 18-year-olds to add to the current 150,000. There will also be 44,000 new places at further education colleges.

Tomorrow he will also issue a pamphlet detailing how the changes will be put into practice: “These new rights must be matched by new responsibilities . . . young people are responsible for their participation and this can be enforced if necessary.”

If someone drops out of education or training, their local authority will try to find them a place.

According to Balls’s department, if they refuse to attend, they will be given a formal warning, in which the “local authority will clearly explain their duty to participate and the consequences of not doing so”.

The next step will be to issue a formal notice, followed by a fixed penalty ticket. The Neet could then be taken to a youth court and fined, but the sanction will not go as far as imposing a custodial sentence.

Balls’s proposal to give children the opportunity either to train or stay at school reflects the policy of both him and Brown to blur the distinction between vocational and academic education in the hope that the skills of the whole workforce can be improved.

Last month, the schools secretary announced that the government’s new diplomas, to be introduced in 2011, would include not just practical subjects such as travel and tourism but also academic topics.

Critics have accused Labour of diluting the rigour of A-levels and GCSEs to ensure more young people gain qualifications.

But Balls will say today: “For decades we’ve been bedevilled by a two-tier view, which was that getting a skill, going to university, was for the few, and that for most young people excellence wasn’t for them, that they would end up with a second-class route into either vocational learning or an unskilled job.” Balls says today. “We’ve got to put that view behind us.”
 
It would make more sense if they addressed problems in education at the other end of the scale- ie- make sure kids get a proper grounding in primary schools and then perhaps they would be more likely to do well and *choose* to stay on at school.

They could also reinstate some of the apprenticeships that, in their wisdom, they've stopped doing. Then kids will at least have some choices.

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Liar said:
"Bla bla bla socialist europe blah blah blah nanny state blah blah blah slavery blah blah..."
Oh and add "blah blah public education is evil blah". Sorry, I forgot. :cool:
 
Liar said:
Oh and add "blah blah public education is evil blah". Sorry, I forgot. :cool:

Wait - public education in the english or american sense?
 
LIAR

Schools exist for teachers, not students. Affluent students are abandoning public schools. I recently read a report about American schools. Over half the students in American public schools are poor and/or disabled. American schools are daycare for single mothers.

My grandchildren attend private schools. They dont cope with miscreants, they go on excursions to fascinating places and interact with interesting people. One grand-daughter graduated school at 14 and is a college freshman at 15. My grandkids love learning.
 
scheherazade_79 said:
Uh-oh.....

*runs to hide*

uh oh? Why are you hiding?

I just wondered if he meant state-funded schools or independently funded...

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Vermilion said:
uh oh? Why are you hiding?

I just wondered if he meant state-funded schools or independently funded...

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State funded then. Guv'ment education by force.

Except, of course, I don't mean anything really, just beating the usual suspect(s?) to the punch.

Not that Jimmy B got the hint. :p
 
Liar said:
State funded then. Guv'ment education by force.

Except, of course, I don't mean anything really, just beating the usual suspect(s?) to the punch.

Not that Jimmy B got the hint. :p

Okily Dokily. We just have a middle-ages remnant here that means 'public school' refers to Government funded :)

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LIAR

I dont miss a lot, old man. But my point remains, public schools exist to reward loyal union teachers with employment. And it provides daycare for single moms. The kids know this.

Schools dont exist to educate them or inspire them or nurture their talents. School is their job, and they dont want to be there. School is an 8-5 reformatory.
 
*snicker*

Honestly, I love these bold pronouncements of mere opinion that are tossed out there as be-all and know-all fact.
 
Fortunately :rolleyes: the Labour government only wants to apply these disciplines to the 16 - 18 age band. The Conservatives, if they win the next election, would like to apply the new rules to the 16 -24 age band.

If we are going to treat 24 year old's as children, we ought take away their voting rights, not allow them to drink, or smoke, stop them marrying and driving, and while we're at it, raise the age of consent for sex. They should also be required to live at their parents address, have childrens fares on public transport, girls should wear ankle socks and boys... short trousers, except when performing compulsory National Service in the armed forces.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
LIAR

I dont miss a lot, old man. But my point remains, public schools exist to reward loyal union teachers with employment. And it provides daycare for single moms. The kids know this.

Schools dont exist to educate them or inspire them or nurture their talents. School is their job, and they dont want to be there. School is an 8-5 reformatory.

James.

I resent the above statement with everything I can. I went to state school, we couldn't afford public, my parents are still together and it wasn't used merely as a babysitting service. I *learnt* because I love to learn.

And the school I went to was a sink school.

--

Liar - oh, wonderful! So we're going to lock Mark up now? I despair of governments at the moment, I really do.
 
JUST LEGAL

I said elsewhere on this thread that government schools in America are now populated, more than half, by poor children-disabled children. Affluent children are leaving the government schools for better education opportunities in the private sector.

I'm confident many of the moms of poor children dont work. But the moms who do work use the schools for daycare. The conventional wisdom in America is schools are daycare for single moms.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
JUST LEGAL

I said elsewhere on this thread that government schools in America are now populated, more than half, by poor children-disabled children. Affluent children are leaving the government schools for better education opportunities in the private sector.

I'm confident many of the moms of poor children dont work. But the moms who do work use the schools for daycare. The conventional wisdom in America is schools are daycare for single moms.

Just because a child is poor, or disabled, does not mean they will amount to nothing.

On that note, I'm bowing out of the thread ebfore I blow a gasket.
 
What's really funny is that the people who think compelling kids to do something 'proper' is a good thing would shriek like the Blue Meanies clowns (complete with head spinning) if someone tried to compel them to do something 'proper'.

I always find it odd that those people so often concerned with 'freedom' rarely get really furious when it's taken away from people they don't like.
 
JUST-LEGAL

I just returned from observing a government classroom. One child was cutting his textbook up with scissors. Another child was standing on top of the computer work-station. A third child was wandering aimlessly around the room. Teachers cannot educate in this sort of environment. But if you like it, more power to you.

The teacher appealed to the school behavior specialist for help. He came to the classroom and told her to deal with it, he was busy.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
JUST-LEGAL

I just returned from observing a government classroom. One child was cutting his textbook up with scissors. Another child was standing on top of the computer work-station. A third child was wandering aimlessly around the room. Teachers cannot educate in this sort of environment. But if you like it, more power to you.

The teacher appealed to the school behavior specialist for help. He came to the classroom and told her to deal with it, he was busy.
Well... I just returned from teaching in one. The kids were alert, interrested and pretty respectful. They were generally helpful to one another and eager to learn.

And this were the poor kids, the single-mom or unemployed-parents-on-welfare (or in some cases, in jail) housing project youths.

The culprit in your case is not "government funded" or even "poor students". It's much more complex.
 
LIAR

Affluent parents are pulling their kids out of government schools. Youre entitled to your own opinion but you arent entitled to your own facts.

One of the school officials told we exactly what you posted, and I saw for myself what was really happeing in the classroom.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
Youre entitled to your own opinion but you arent entitled to your own facts.

One of the school officials told we exactly what you posted, and I saw for myself what was really happeing in the classroom.
um...ok...so you ARE entitled to your own facts then? Your subjective experience is no more a fact than mine is.

Look, I'm not saying that the US goverment funded education doesn't have problems. I said nothing about the US goverment funded education, and I have no experience with it, so I'll leave that to those who have. But the school system I have experience with is also goverment funded, and cater to students from the worst social backgrounds, and still have a fairly good record of high school graduates and college atendees. The net result for private schools and public are actually almost the same. If the culprit in the drama you described is "government funding" or "poor students", we'd fail in a similar fashion here too.

So please get some perspective before you go off lip-syncing to simplified talking points.
 
Liar said:
Well... I just returned from teaching in one. The kids were alert, interrested and pretty respectful. They were generally helpful to one another and eager to learn.

And this were the poor kids, the single-mom or unemployed-parents-on-welfare (or in some cases, in jail) housing project youths.

This is the experience in the school where my youngest goes.

It's a county school, relatively small, and the median income of the families is probably a little lower than average.

Its also rated as one of the best schools in the state, the kids love it, and the teachers are wonderful.
 
LIAR

C'mon! Youre a teacher in a government school. You wouldnt be a wee bit biased, would you?

When I arrived at the school today the people who greeted me told me the same story. The I sat in the classroom and watched kids climb upon a computer work-station, cut up a text-book, and wander around.

I'm sure there are exemplary government schools. I attended government schools. But the research indicates that government schools are becoming ghettos for poor and disabled children in America.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
LIAR

C'mon! Youre a teacher in a government school. You wouldnt be a wee bit biased, would you?

When I arrived at the school today the people who greeted me told me the same story. The I sat in the classroom and watched kids climb upon a computer work-station, cut up a text-book, and wander around.

I'm sure there are exemplary government schools. I attended government schools. But the research indicates that government schools are becoming ghettos for poor and disabled children in America.

JAMES

I have listened to it time and time again, and I'll say it ONE MORE FUCKING TIME.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING POOR, OR DISABLED!

Especially disabled. My fiance is disabled, this does not mean he isn't intelligent.

So stop using the word as if its dirty.
 
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