U.S. pilots charged with manslaughter in friendly fire incident

[Problem Child]

Two US pilots have been charged with manslaughter over the death of four Canadian troops in a 'friendly fire' incident in Afghanistan.

It is highly unusual for criminal charges to be filed against servicemen acting in a military operation.

The Illinois Air National Guard pilots Major Harry Schmidt and Major William Umbach were flying F-16s over Afghanistan on April 18 when they thought they were being fired at from the ground.


todays article from Sky News

june article from CBC news

 

[Guest]

It is highly unusual for criminal charges to be filed against servicemen acting in a military operation.

I smell scapegoat.

REDWAVE, any opinion on this?

 

[Avery_Chisholm]

AMEN

its about time the US pay but then again they'll probably just get probation or someting....

 

[freshrope_69]

I am just so confused as to why the CANANDAIANS, feel the need to "turn" their backs on the American Troops. The recent poll taken that "the USA deserved the 9-11-02 attacks,"
doesn't sit well with me. It is even more painful that we- Americans- didn't voice an outrage to this poll.

It truly does feel and look as if every other country needs and wants our help when bad happens to them, yet they don't show the guts to stand up for themselves, and always want the US to solve their problems for them.

This is mine own opinion, but as freinds can be, when the chips are down on one (USA) let us all kick the friend while he/she is down. But, oh please "DON'T REMEMBER THESE TIMES WHEN WE NEED YOU AGAIN."

I truly am thinking about leaning toward closing the borders for awhile, keeping our money at home to care for our own, and last but not least....showing the world WE ARE STRONG, WE DO STAND TOGETHER AND WILL FOREVER....BE THE EXAMPLE OF TRUTH, COURAGE AND THE NEW AMERICAN WAY.

These pilots were given a job to do. They are fulfilling a duty assigned to them. They accept that duty and when their commanders order a rocket fired, the responsibility is no longer theirs.

Stop the maddness that is happening. WAR is WAR..no one wins. But did we go after the people who used the USS COLE as an example for their cause? NO!

This country is becoming soft and we will someday lose our way of life, as we since 9-11-01, sadly know. So, when CANADA needs the US again. I hope they would reflect upon the many battles we have fought for and with them.

 

[Spinaroonie]

People ask for accountability, here is accountability.

 

[Spinaroonie]

I am just so confused as to why the CANANDAIANS, feel the need to "turn" their backs on the American Troops. The recent poll taken that "the USA deserved the 9-11-02 attacks,"
doesn't sit well with me. It is even more painful that we- Americans- didn't voice an outrage to this poll.

It truly does feel and look as if every other country needs and wants our help when bad happens to them, yet they don't show the guts to stand up for themselves, and always want the US to solve they problems for them.

This is mine own opinion, but as freinds can be, when the chips are down on one (USA) let us all kick the friend while he/she is down. But, oh please "DON'T REMEMBER THESE TIMES WHEN WE NEED YOU AGAIN."

I truly am thinking about leaning toward closing the borders for awhile, keeping our money at home to care for our own, and last but not least....showing the world WE ARE STRONG, WE DO STAND TOGETHER AND WILL FOREVER....BE THE EXAMPLE OF TRUTH, COURAGE AND THE NEW AMERICAM WAY.

These pilots were given a job to do. They are fulfilling a duty assigned to them. They accept that duty and when their commanders order a rocket fired, the responsibility is no longer theirs.

Stop the maddness that is happening. WAR is WAR..no one wins. But did we go after the people who used the USS COLE as an example for their cause? NO!

This country has becoming soft and we will someday lose our way of life, as we sincce 9-11-02, sadly know. So, when CANADA needs the US again. I hope they would reflect upon the many battles we have fought for and with them.

You've never been to Canada or met a Canadian, have you?

PS, these charges come from a joint investigation by Canada and the US.

 

[freshrope_69]

I read the header, I agree, but with the poll of earlier mention, I guess I just had a moment of confusion, which I did state at the first of my reply. I am not out to "hurt" anyone's feelings, yet as I read all the stuff about how our boys were wrong it just didn't sit well.
I will ask for forgiveness and hope with time anyone offended will know that I didn't have all the information. I was wrong to jump so quick, but I ....hell...I am sorry...I will leave it at that.

 

[fgarvb1]

First i don't know very much at all about what happened.

I hope the bombing was one large fuckup from the word go.

Now i carry ninty-nine percent of the time unless i'm at work.

If i have to pull iron and and fuck up and shoot and/or kill the wrong person it is my ass. ( in some cases legally if i don't try to stop the crime it is still my ass.)

The point is carrying weapons of any kind causes a person to be called in to account for their actions if they are used or not used as the case may be.

If bombs, guns or whatever are misused by an American at home or in the air over a foreign country it is expected that they will be called into account for their actions. If there is an defense for their actions (such things are more strict than most of the world believe) they will be cleared.

If not the correct action i would think, will be taken.

We will see.

 

[freshrope_69]

I do agree with your post. I am sitting here feeling very bad in my posting. I normally don't feel so strongly as I expressed. I am all for accountability.
I just hope I can move forward and realize, much like the judgement of these pilots. Everyone makes a mistake sometime in their life.
Thanks for a better insight into the true feelings i wanted to express.

 

[christo]

It might help to have the facts before you decide whether this is an episode of America-bashing or a legitimate accusation.

A squad of Canadians were conducting an exercise in a valley, working on assaulting fixed enemy positions. They launched a practice assault on an old burned-out tank, using live ammunition. A few thousand feet overheard, one of the F-16 pilots saw the muzzle flashes and said that he was taking anti-aircraft fire. Under the rules of engagement at the time, he was required to withdraw from the area and ask for orders.

He did not. He stayed in the area, orbiting the site, and asked for permission to return fire. The Air Force controller in the area denied him permission and ordered him to leave the area.

Fourteen seconds later, the pilot announced that he was attacking. He said "Bombs away" and dropped a 500-pound bomb on the Canadians. Four were killed and eight wounded.

So, the pilot violated his rules of engagement, defied a direct order, and dropped a bomb on friendly troops. He couldn't very well argue that he was taking fire, since the Canucks were firing small arms at a tank, not shooting anti-aircraft artillery. He can't say that he was trying to accomplish a difficult mission and just missed his target, since he was just providing air cover and was supposed to withdraw if fired upon. He was clear to return fire if he was in danger, but he wasn't.

I don't know why there were two pilots accused, unless they were flying in tandem and both disobeyed orders.

 

[freshrope_69]

Thank you Christo. You really don't know how bad I am feeling at this moment. I usually don't reply till I have the facts. This time I didn't follow my own rules of engagement.

 

[70/30]

Murder is Murder, throw away the key. That or shove it up Redwave's ass and make them fish for it.

 

[alexandraaah]

Unless I'm mistaken, I heard on NPR that one of the family members of the fallen thought manslaughter was an excessive charge.

 

[Laurel]

It might help to have the facts before you decide whether this is an episode of America-bashing or a legitimate accusation.

A squad of Canadians were conducting an exercise in a valley, working on assaulting fixed enemy positions. They launched a practice assault on an old burned-out tank, using live ammunition. A few thousand feet overheard, one of the F-16 pilots saw the muzzle flashes and said that he was taking anti-aircraft fire. Under the rules of engagement at the time, he was required to withdraw from the area and ask for orders.

He did not. He stayed in the area, orbiting the site, and asked for permission to return fire. The Air Force controller in the area denied him permission and ordered him to leave the area.

Fourteen seconds later, the pilot announced that he was attacking. He said "Bombs away" and dropped a 500-pound bomb on the Canadians. Four were killed and eight wounded.

So, the pilot violated his rules of engagement, defied a direct order, and dropped a bomb on friendly troops. He couldn't very well argue that he was taking fire, since the Canucks were firing small arms at a tank, not shooting anti-aircraft artillery. He can't say that he was trying to accomplish a difficult mission and just missed his target, since he was just providing air cover and was supposed to withdraw if fired upon. He was clear to return fire if he was in danger, but he wasn't.

I don't know why there were two pilots accused, unless they were flying in tandem and both disobeyed orders.

Yikes.

My question is...why? Why violate orders like that? What was going through his head?

 

[Sillyman]

Yikes.

My question is...why? Why violate orders like that? What was going through his head?

Well, I don't want to diss the fine upstanding men and women in our country's military, but a least a few branches have had trouble meeting recruitment qoutas, and I can't help think that maybe a few less than quality individuals slipped in under the radar. They let my best friend into the Navy, and he was there for a few weeks before they realized the guy was a paranoid. (Yes, I'm schizoid and my best friend is paranoid. We make a lovely couple. )

 

[Sandia]

Yikes.

My question is...why? Why violate orders like that? What was going through his head?

Some folks just love the idea of blowing stuff up... and don't care much who the targets are.

 

[HeavyStick]

Good initiative, bad judgement

 

[Sandia]

On the radio today they said in Canada there was outrage over the incident. Which is strange, because today was the first day I'd heard about it.

Yes. I'm saying the American media is very selective in its reporting.

 

[Problem Child]

On the radio today they said in Canada there was outrage over the incident. Which is strange, because today was the first day I'd heard about it.

Yes. I'm saying the American media is very selective in its reporting.

Actually it was all over the American media when it happened.

 

[KillerMuffin]

They are National Guard. Two weeks of keggers a year, one weekend of strip joints a month. He probably had about 5 hours of training in 5 years.

I would guess that he was so hopped up on adrenaline that he wasn't thinking clearly and fucked up by the numbers. Not an excuse, but probably why he did something so incredibly stupid.

While I agree that they should be brought up on charges for misdeed, as all should be whatever they are I disagree that people should say "its about time the US pay but then again they'll probably just get probation or someting...."

We do pay. We pay out more cash, more blood, more sweat, and more tears for this planet than any other nation. Naturally you conveniently forget that. As for probation, the UCMJ does not allow for that in instances of manslaughter. It's Club Fed, which, by the way, does not follow civilian law in regards to amenities. Servicemembers get their basic constitutional rights, but not one drop more.

For every incident that happens, there are literally hundreds where accountability is issued. They just don't make good press and they don't make the ratings.

Nothing will ever bring these people back and nothing will ever make it right. We could give away the gross national product for three years and it still would never make it right. If you want satisfaction, you'll never get it.

The United States isn't evil, no matter what you insinuate. Neither are the people in it. You, though, you're just plain vicious.

You're not perfect and neither is your country, so get the fuck over yourself and stick your holier-than-thou attitude right up your stuck up little ass. You are not better than we are. You are the same. I feel for those people who have to suffer this kind of thing. I really, really do. You? Wait until December and go lick a flagpole.

 

[HeavyStick]

*claps* very good post KM, here's an ironic hypothetical situation.

Canadians (as a whole) oppose Capital Punishment. I do believe that could be his sentence. (if found guilty)

 

[Sandia]

We do pay. We pay out more cash, more blood, more sweat, and more tears for this planet than any other nation. Naturally you conveniently forget that.

I'm not sure people forget that. They may not necessarily agree with it, though.

 

[christo]

I heard the report on NPR too (what this country desperatly needs is National Public Television. NPR is a national treasure). I think the father of one of the soldiers who died said that he understood what's it's like to have a job with enormous amount of responsibility (he's the captain of an oil tanker), and that if you screw up like those pilots did, there are serious consequences.

Flying a fighter is perhaps the most difficult job in the world. You're under tremendous physical stress; you have to know how to fly a high-performance aircraft; you go to work knowing that you could be killed in a crash or by enemy fire; you know that you might be called upon to kill people; and you know that if you make a mistake you could kill a whole bunch of innocent people.

I don't know why they dropped the bombs. National Guard pilots are usually pretty good, they're often older guys with a lot of hours in the air under their belts. You'd think that before you'd drop a bomb you'd make damn sure you knew what was down there. When in doubt, don't drop.

 

[HeavyStick]

I don't know why they dropped the bombs.

maybe adrenalin, fear or like I said earlier... good initiative, bad judgement.

I'm just glad the right thing is being done. This should alleviate some of the tension between USA and Canada.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I happen to have a link to the Manual for Courts-Martial. http://www.jag.navy.mil/documents/mcm2000.pdf

It's a bitch to load, I'm sorry I took the book back to the library.

Er, don't ask.


( 1 ) V o l u n t a r y m a n s l a u g h t e r . D i s h o n o r a b l e d i s -charge,
forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and
confinement for 15 years.
(2) Involuntary manslaughter. Dishonorable dis-charge,
forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and
confinement for 10 years.