Truth or Treat-Dec. 28, 2001

[Mickie]

Welcome back! Hope you all had a Merry Christmas!

The story for this week is Truth or Treat by Stories by Jake. It can be found in the Group Sex category.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=28106

Happy reading!

Mickie

 

[Jake Marlow]

This is my first time being discussed in here, be gentle. Actually I think the things I am most interested in are:

Do the charecters seem plausible? I am aware Maria and Jared are not as well drawn as Seth and Andrea.

Do their emotions seem real?

Does the story seem plausible?

Since it is an erotic story, did it turn you on? Was it hot?

And what would make it better?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Jake

 

[Jocund Day]

edited

 

[scarlet vixen]

I'm puzzled, JD,

Are you saying
1)You won't read a story with a rape[assault] in it?
2) You won't read a story with a rape in it that is not labeled as such.
3) You won't read a story with a rape, that is 'mislabeled.' or 'intentionally mislabeled.'

If it's 1), fine. Your preference. You won't read Brothers Karamazov or autobiographies of assault or abuse victims.

If it's 2), what do you do in a bookstore or library?

If it's 3), isn't it possible that the author, in accord with lit. policy had to choose only one category? Unlike at some sites, the author is not asked to list the types of acts contained. Maybe that should be the case. (Some authors place a warning at the head of their story.)

I suspect maybe it's none of the above. Maybe
4) You won't read a story about an assault when the person is portrayed as enjoying it and not realizing it's an assault (before or after).

I do sympathize with that, if you object to men being encouraged to assault, assuming the viction will like it, and/or will let it go unreported.

 

[Jocund Day]

I'm equally puzzled, Miss Vixen.

Shouldn't you be responding in this forum to Jake's story, and not merely to *my* response to Jake's story?

I submit that a refusal to read a story based on perceived content is every bit as valid a critique as would be issues concerning sentence structure or character development. The kindest thing I can do for Jake is to unhesitatingly deliver the cruel fact that he weaves rape and any of its variants into his story at great peril to that story's being read.

I remind you and anyone else who may, in future, take issue with my convictions concerning rape or categorization or hyphenation or fuck-all that my opinions are just that and only that-opinion. They neither invite nor require your approval. Take them, or leave them. I have no time for adolescent bickering.

JD______________________________

"When God hands you a gift, he also hands you a whip."
Truman Capote

 

[Jake Marlow]

I would argue that whether it's my story or not, if a story can only be submitted in one catagory it should be the catagory that is most apt to the story overall, not just one aspect of it. The overal theme of this story is a group experience. If the story were placed in the non-consent catagory wouldn't the reader be just as perplexed by it's placement there?

And further more, I do not think this is a nonconsentual story. Consent is in the eye of the alleged victim. Andrea did not complain, so no assault occured. And furthermore if she did, the contact does not rise to sexual assault anyway. If anything it would be a minor indecent contact, not even a felony. I am also angry that you imply I intentionally misled anyone. If I honestly thought it was a noncensent story I would have put it there. I don't check my reads here. I would not want to trick anyone into reading any of my stories. I'm sorry if you were offended by some of the content of my story, but I had no intent to trick you in anyway.

Also, please let's discuss the actual story as well as where it should or shouldn't have been placed. Thanks.

Jake

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Hi Jake,

It's ambitious. I figure about 100 K or 50 pages. The sex action is well planned, but takes an awfully long time to unfold. I felt too much detail about the characters' thoughts of each move of their own, or their spouses'. Since the reader 'works' pretty hard here, the payoff should be proportionate. It didn't feel that way.

There are lots of typos and wrong words, some amusing, for example about a woman reaching a 'sexual peek.'

The characters. Well, you gave it a shot. I see the effort. I don't feel the reader learns the central things, or can infer them, in all the detail. After a point, the details of thought and feeling do not really add, and are predictable. The characters are fairly generic. Andrea, a bit frustrated, first reluctant, then sluttish. Seth perhaps a little more complex, but under the surface, your basic, lust driven porn character at heart which is all Jared is.

Maybe it's just late, but the erotism suffered in the length. Trying to be dispassionate. Hmmm. Maybe the 'highlights' would have been enough. Cut it by 50%. Sorry if it sounds harsh, my friend.
I do see a lot of erotic imagination, just too much typing. Time for pruning.
====
PS. I do see that Andrea was assaulted (touched without consent) , and don't see if that's followed through. I'm not sure it ties in with the story. There is a lapse of time. The party heats up. She could equally have gone for more beer.
Except in gross cases, I think it's pointless to argue about which literotica category is picked. Possibly, as s.v. suggests, authors might warn readers about really bizarre stuff.

 

[karmadog]

Ok. Firstly, the story does seem plausible, but I wasn't interested in any of the characters. They were a little cartoonish to me. I can see that you worked your ass off, but there didn't seem to be any passion behind the writing. It felt labored. Perhaps ou were trying to edit out all superfluous words to make it crisp. If that's the case, you went too far. It reads like a newspaper article. One of the most important aspects of creative writing is figurative language--metaphor, simile, etc.--I don't recall any of that in your story. Figurative language allows the writer to say many things in few words. Of course, coming up with fresh figurative language is the hardest part of writing. I'm not saying that your writing needs to be as gothic as Faulkner's, but it could use a flower here and there. Naturally, this is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

Keep working. It's obvious that you had the action pretty well mapped out, and that's a good start. I think you even had a good grasp on your characters, now if you give them some more interesting facets, you will be on your way.

Good luck!

 

[RiFF_]

Good Stuff

I'm not exactly objective as a long time fan of Jake's stories from this and other sites ('Cueing Up' is a fave), but here's my two cents for what it's worth.

Maybe the story is a bit too long with the gradual build-up to the steamy fun, but it’s really no big deal and so damn subjective. The build-up may annoy readers who want to get right to the “good stuff” but on the other hand, it may serve as a kind of written foreplay for those who don’t mind the wait. Does this relate to a subjective difference between erotica and out-and-out porn? Whether it’s a good or bad thing depends on reader preference. What I personally dislike are erotic stories that are lengthy and build slowly but don’t deliver a relatively appropriate sexual bang at that would make it worth the wait. ‘Truth or Treat’ brings on plenty enough heat to justify the longer read.

Since it’s come up, I don't believe that this story is really about nonconsentual sex, although Andrea's dislike of Jared and her initial reluctance and discomfort with the situation may come out with somewhat of a nonconsentual feel. Folks can argue about the proper definition of rape forever, but the story depicts Andrea ultimately responding to a seduction as opposed to being taken against her will, and she is a more than willing participant.

Do the emotions seem real? I was able to buy into the emotions as a reader to the extent that I enjoyed the story.

Is the story plausible? Yep, It sure is. I was involved in a very similar real life situation.

Is it hot? Well, I’ve read it more than a few times, if you know what I mean. C'mon, man, bring that sequel to literotica.

Make it better? Sorry, but I'm too busy second guessing my own writing - the writer's curse. Spell check would'nt hurt.

Now where the hell is my bhong?

Ramblin’ on

RiFF

 

[KillerMuffin]

I didn't read past the first page. Generally, if I don't sink right into it I check to see how long it is, if it's more than 2 pages I don't read it. This is one I would have back clicked in.

The first paragraph was 1) passive and 2) telling, not showing. Both of these equal boring.

Let's take the first three sentences.

"Andrea Donovan was not too thrilled with her husband Seth at the moment. He had accepted the invitation to Jared Devlin’s Halloween party without even asking her. Part of the reason was probably because he knew that she didn’t like Jared all that much and that if he’d asked first she would have said no, or at least argued about it for a while. In fact, it seemed that they were doing a little too much arguing and too little lovemaking. Both in their early thirties and in their eighth year of marriage, their lives had settled down into a bit of a routine."

How do you improve this? Turn it into a dialogue where he's talking and she's ignoring him.

Andrea Donovan smirked into the mirror and admired her perfect revenge. Seth thought he was so smart accepting that invitation to Jared Devlin's party without even asking her. She couldn't stand that man. This would drive them both insane.

Or something like that.

Up until the dialouge the narrator is talking at me and it goes in one ear and out the other. Add that to the dime store romance novel names and I'm not very interested. I'm not with the characters and I'm picking at my fingernails and messing with the place the mouse is sitting on. I am not into the story at all. If I were looking for sex, I'd skim until I got to the juicy bits, get myself hot and then leave for something else.

So that's a big failure with me. There are over 13,000 stories on this site and you are competing with all of them. I have too much choice to sit around and wade through boring backstory.

I hate to say it because it's mean, but that is my reaction to this story. Bear in mind that this is me and that I'm extremely picky when I read erotica. I also think there is room for improvement here, a great deal of improvement.

The basic things to work on are learning to show and not tell. Write that on and index card and tape it to your monitor. Learn to use dialouge effectively, because yours needs help. Jared Devlin? Devlin is one of those no-no names. Roarke, Sebastian, Damon. Anything you'd find in a Johanna Lindsey is going to connotate a Johanna Lindsey. Work on active voice. Writing like you speak is another good trick, only grammatically correct. Talk to me, not at me.

 

[mudlnthru]

Good story

Finally finished your novella. It WAS long. One of those things that takes a lot of time to read and I don't quite think that I was prepared for the overall length.

Tough to make an assessment, just because of the overall time factor in the reading.

I would, however, comment thusly...
Grab the reader in the beginning. Lay the plot out or give us some better action. Something to capture our interest so we're more willing to move to the second part.

Develop one of the characters and stop switching back and forth from one to the other. Makes me dizzy. I'd like to be able to put myself in one or the other's shoes, but can't do both in a story.

Give us something that makes the characters more likeable. None of them really had much depth or personality. Tough to feel for them in any way. I'd like to care about Andrea, but there are no endearing traits to hang onto. Seth seems to be a somewhat opportunistic voyeur. Nothing special and just plain uninteresting.

Drop the nap. It starts to go somewhere and then stops. Just seems to be filler and has no place in a short story. Plots and subplots? Just do the plot! Save the subplot and develop it into a full story!

Finally. Done. I'll go back and read about the sex. That part was really good. Anyone up for spin the bottle? Truth or Dare was fun!

 

[VeraGem]

If you don't need it delete it...

I was into the story, but not drawn in. I had to battle my way past the first 89 lines. As a reader I felt like I was getting too much information and not enough story. While I'd agree that some of the introduction may help the readers understanding of the characters, I'd also argue that most of it was not essential. Elements that I thought were essential, (like the fact that Andrea was somewhat uncomfortable with her costume and the fact that they were a very sexual couple yet (until now) exclusive to each other), could have been worked in later - and you did that. I would have started the story with their arrival at the party. Deleting what's been written can be painful, trust me I know, but you certainly weren't suffering for length here. (Please hold the puns.)

This may be personal preference, but I get distracted by the "GGGGGOOODDDD!!!!! FUUUUCCCKKK MMMEEEE!!!!" exclamations. I prefer descriptions to actual spellings of how the words came out. One or two can work if they're done well, and a couple of times I didn't find it distracting - but in my opinion you used it too many times. (More than once.)

As far as the aforementioned sexual assault - it had it's place in the story, if only to illustrate what a moron (or an asshole) Jared could be. I think the story was categorized fine under group sex in spite of it. I know if I'd been looking for nonconsent I'd have been disappointed big time. What didn't work for me was how Andrea ended up fucking Jared afterwards - I'd have rather she cut his equipment off with a butcher knife, but that's just me, I have a dark and vengeful side when it comes to rape and sexual assault. On the bright side, you made me believe it when she said "Fuck me you Bastard!"

One element that got a big reaction from this reader was the constant tease of 'no, we shouldn't' and 'you can only go so far as _____ but you can't come'. It made for a long, slow build up. I liked it - the tension was palpable - that, more than anything else - kept me reading.

I would agree with several of the above opinions regarding the characters. I felt like I was watching the Andrea show - it seemed almost as if it could have been first person POV from her perspective, the rest came along for the ride.

I agree with KM on the use of passive voice and I'd like to add one of my own pet peeves - overuse of adverbs: handled her roughly, kissed her slowly, lightly brushed. I'd rather read something more descriptive, like: "Kissed her with a slow passion." That's just me. To me overuse of adverbs can mean one per story. I just think a writer should work harder on description and I see adverbs as a cop-out.

Over all I see it as a first draft that needed to be reworked into a final form. It has strong images and possibilities - but my advice would have been to use the delete key without mercy and remove anything that didn't add to the story.

 

[Jake Marlow]

I'd like to thank everyone for their input. Some of it was constructive, some of it I agreed with, some of it I didn't. I would like to address KillerMuffin's comment about my story competing with 13,000 other stories on this site. I don't see myself in any sort of competition. If someone chooses to read my story, I hope they like it, if they don't that's a shame, but it's not about competing against the other stories for me. I have my own website to publish my stories, this stuff is just gravy for me.

Thanx again for your input, I hope it improves my writing in the future.

Jake