Trial lawyers and terrorism

Ishmael

Literotica Guru
Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Posts
84,005
Robert Novak

September 19, 2002

Trial lawyers and terrorism

WASHINGTON -- Three months ago in a private letter, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle opposed punitive damages against blameless victims of terrorism. That letter came to light this week a few days after Daschle's agent moved in the opposite direction.

The agent was Sen. Patrick Leahy, one of the heaviest Democratic hitters. Meeting with Republican counterparts, he said the majority leader had authorized him to handle a long-delayed Senate-House conference on the terrorism insurance bill. In its current alignment, the conference would reject the Senate provision for punitive
damages, much less open the door to more litigation as desired by trial lawyers. That is unacceptable to one of the Democratic Party's most powerful constituencies:
the trial lawyers.

Leahy denied to me he was blocking the conference, saying that Daschle had asked him only "to get the bill unstuck." But two Senate sources said they got the distinct impression from Leahy that he was trying to keep it stuck by preventing the conference from meeting.

While Leahy is not even a member of the Banking Committee (which has jurisdiction over terrorism insurance), he is chairman of the Judiciary Committee who looks out for his former fellow trial lawyers. Holding up the insurance bill has killed or delayed $12 billion worth of new real estate projects, costing 300,000 construction
jobs. Moody's Investors Service this week continued to downgrade commercial paper because of no terrorism insurance.

The need for temporary federal help in insuring big construction projects was recognized quickly in Washington after the Sept. 11 attacks. A bill passed the Republican-controlled House, 227 to 193, with expectation of Senate passage before Christmas.

Such expectation was premature. Any bill blocking court suits for punitive damages was unacceptable to trial lawyers, and a change was pressed by Leahy and Daschle. The catchphrase on the Senate floor by trial lawyer advocates was that the bill could not become a vehicle for tort reform. After six months of tortuous maneuvers, a compromise was reached: punitive damages could be filed against private owners, but not the government. The bill passed June 18.

On the next day, Daschle wrote to a supporter who had complained about the long delay. The letter's political nature was indicated because it was not on official U.S. Senate stationery but on a letterhead bearing the inscription "Thomas A. Daschle" and the disclaimer "Not printed at government expense." The response read like a form letter to mollify supporters pressing for terrorism insurance.

Daschle began by blaming Republican Sens. Phil Gramm and Trent Lott for the long delay, then made this commitment: "I believe that a consensus package that will ensure that terrorism coverage is widely available at affordable prices, that property owners who bear no blame for a terrorist attack will not be liable for punitive damages, can -- indeed -- must be reached." He warned, however, that "all parties must put aside secondary agendas" -- that is, interference with the trial lawyers.

Can property owners be free from punitive damages without pursuing "secondary agendas"? The contradiction became clear when the trial lawyers insisted on their full demands in the final version of the bill. However, Sen. Christopher Dodd, influenced by the dominant insurance industry in his state of Connecticut, could join
Republicans for the decisive vote against punitive damages in the Senate-House conference. Another Democratic conferee, Sen. Charles Schumer, is under pressure from New York business constituents to permit passage of the bill, but told me he would not support "tort reform."

The only sure way to protect the right to sue for big dollars is for the conference never to meet. Daschle returned from the August recess blaming the Republicans for killing the terrorism insurance bill by turning it into tort reform -- effectively pronouncing the bill dead.

President Bush often responds on the campaign, most recently at Davenport, Iowa, Monday, declaring: "Congress needs to pass a bill that is good for the hard hats of America, not good for the trial lawyers." He said the same thing at the Carpenters Union Labor Day picnic in Pittsburgh. At his side was Carpenters President Douglas McCarron, who had just contributed over $1 million in union funds to keep Tom Daschle and Pat Leahy in Senate control.
 
Any law blocking punitive damages should be opposed by any american who believes in our court system and justice.
 
By the way, this is a terribly written article. I am surprised that Novak can't write more clearly about what this bill is about.
:rolleyes:
 
What is so sad about this is the demand on the Trial Lawyers part that they be allowed to 'profit' from the acts of terrorists.

In a nut shell they are saying that we want to be able to sue the owners and lessee's of the WTC for 'being' culpable in the events of last Sept. Hence the demand for punitive damages.

Reimbursment for loss is understandable and the correct thing to do. Punishing fellow victims for the acts of madmen go beyond the pale.

Ishmael
 
TWB said:
By the way, this is a terribly written article. I am surprised that Novak can't write more clearly about what this bill is about.
:rolleyes:

I agree, I've seen better from him. Much better.

Doesn't change the politics of the matter though, does it?

Ishmael
 
Ishmael said:
Robert Novak

September 19, 2002

That is unacceptable to one of the Democratic Party's most powerful constituencies:
the trial lawyers.


Now i am thoroughly convinced Democrats are pure evil.....As to Rebuplicans who are just corrupt..
 
Am I getting this right? People can sue their landlords who had nothing to do with the terrorist act even though there is no way they could be prepared for such an event? But damages cannot be pursued against the government who actually had the potential to know and warn about the event?

Screwy logic. I know it can be debatable whether the government agencies had enough info to actually do anything about the attack before it happened but it seems to me that would be what a court would decide. If allowed.

Too bad they can't just turn over any funds seized from Al Qaeda and the like over to the victims and for the rebuilding.

Where do terrorist funds go when their seized anyway?

Sufisaint, nobody is pure evil, or just corrupt....it's all a mix of good and bad.:)
 
[Sufisaint, nobody is pure evil, or just corrupt....it's all a mix of good and bad.:) [/B][/QUOTE]


ATLA is pure evil...I know...I was a member...:(
 
weed said:
Am I getting this right? People can sue their landlords who had nothing to do with the terrorist act even though there is no way they could be prepared for such an event? But damages cannot be pursued against the government who actually had the potential to know and warn about the event?

Screwy logic. I know it can be debatable whether the government agencies had enough info to actually do anything about the attack before it happened but it seems to me that would be what a court would decide. If allowed.

There are two concepts at work here. The first is "force majeure". This is a clause in every most all insurance contracts that says they don't have to pay if the cause of the damage was war, civil insurrection, and the like. Because the terrorists acts were considered acts of war, the insurance on the WTC was null and void. The same clause in in most life insurance contracts as well. In effect neither the property, nor most of the victims were covered by insurance due to the nature of the disaster.

The second concept is "lese majeste". It's a legal concept that means in effect, "you can't sue the King", or the government in this instance. This was pricipally an unwritten concept at one time and meant that you needed the governements permission to sue. As the courts became more liberal, congress has seen fit to write this into law where applicable.

weed said:
Too bad they can't just turn over any funds seized from Al Qaeda and the like over to the victims and for the rebuilding.

Where do terrorist funds go when their seized anyway?

The funds are first frozen. This can be done administratively. Then if there are sufficient findings by a court, the money is seized and goes into the governments coffers.

Ishmael
 
sufisaint said:
[Sufisaint, nobody is pure evil, or just corrupt....it's all a mix of good and bad.:)


ATLA is pure evil...I know...I was a member...:( [/B][/QUOTE]

Lol....since I don't think it's the American Theological Library Association I'm gonna' guess it's the lawyers.

Eyes av...lawyer?:D

Even then you're talking about a group, I'm talking individuals and I believe their are very few who are totally bad.
 
Ishmael said:
What is so sad about this is the demand on the Trial Lawyers part that they be allowed to 'profit' from the acts of terrorists.

Should lawyers somehow not get paid for representing their clients? It is so silly. Being a trial lawyer (trial lawyer is a silly title, since defense lawyers are trial lawyers also) for plaintiffs is not simple. You need a lot of skill, you have to have worked very hard, not only on the case you are working, but all of the cases prior to give the experience needed to win a case like this. Punitive damages are not easily awarded. Just because every once in a while a jury gives large punitive damage awards doesn't mean that lawyers are out there raking in the bucks on every case. They lose alot, they get screwed alot, along with their clients.

And if any of you think that punitive damages are easy to get, they arent. You must show reckless disregard for the plaintiff's rights. The action of the defendant has to be reckless or wonton. You can't just ask for punitive damages in every case.

Punitive damages are always a difficult uphill battle for any lawyer representing someone who has been injured. The big recoveries you read about are few and far between.

As to the insurance, if there are ambiguous clauses in insurance contracts the insurance cos will have to pay. I have not heard of one insurance company who has refused claims of those killed in the towers or pentagon. In fact after sept 11 many ins co's said they were going to pay without any attempt to rely such clauses.
 
When greed take over your life...its an ugly and horrible thing...you should have met the partners in the law firms which I worked for..one even sued his own mother and sister.....
 
Can't a government agency be sued for not doing their job? I know of a case ( a bit different, I know) where the Department of Human Services was sued for wrongful death because they failed to insure a foster home was a safe place for a child. If it were (could be) proven the feds could have warned of an attack on the towers could they then be sued?

Just curious. I think they would have had to have very specific information to justify freaking so many Americans with a warning over a potential terrorist attack.
 
sufisaint said:
When greed take over your life...its an ugly and horrible thing...you should have met the partners in the law firms which I worked for..one even sued his own mother and sister.....

Nice guy. I agree that greed is horrible and ugly. A human weakness some give in to more than others.
 
TWB said:


As to the insurance, if there are ambiguous clauses in insurance contracts the insurance cos will have to pay. I have not heard of one insurance company who has refused claims of those killed in the towers or pentagon. In fact after sept 11 many ins co's said they were going to pay without any attempt to rely such clauses.

Thankfully, there are many sides to humanity....sometimes where you least expect to find them.
 
Does anyone know what happened to the massive amounts of money the rest of America sent for the victims. Seems to me there's some sort of crime here somewhere that WE need to focus on more than trial lawyers (unless they're involved in that fraud, too)...
 
TWB said:


Should lawyers somehow not get paid for representing their clients? It is so silly. Being a trial lawyer (trial lawyer is a silly title, since defense lawyers are trial lawyers also) for plaintiffs is not simple. You need a lot of skill, you have to have worked very hard, not only on the case you are working, but all of the cases prior to give the experience needed to win a case like this. Punitive damages are not easily awarded. Just because every once in a while a jury gives large punitive damage awards doesn't mean that lawyers are out there raking in the bucks on every case. They lose alot, they get screwed alot, along with their clients.

And if any of you think that punitive damages are easy to get, they arent. You must show reckless disregard for the plaintiff's rights. The action of the defendant has to be reckless or wonton. You can't just ask for punitive damages in every case.

Punitive damages are always a difficult uphill battle for any lawyer representing someone who has been injured. The big recoveries you read about are few and far between.

As to the insurance, if there are ambiguous clauses in insurance contracts the insurance cos will have to pay. I have not heard of one insurance company who has refused claims of those killed in the towers or pentagon. In fact after sept 11 many ins co's said they were going to pay without any attempt to rely such clauses.

I don't think you get it.

The insurance companies are NOT underwriting any project that might be worthy of a terrorists interest. Without the insurance, the projects are not going forward. If the ATLA get's punitive damages written into the governments underwriting of the insurance industry, the companies will still apply force majeure and the financial institutions will withhold the funding. Soooo, no big projects.

Further, Why should any attorney be allowed to sue for punitive damages for what ammounts to an act of war? Loss recovery, yes. Punishment of those that were also victimized, not a chance. I really don't care how difficult it may be. A way will be found. A chink in the armor or a sympathetic jury. That's all it would take.

Ishmael
 
TWB said:


You need a lot of skill, you have to have worked very hard, not only on the case you are working, but all of the cases prior to give the experience needed to win a case like this. Punitive damages are not easily awarded. Just because every once in a while a jury gives large punitive damage awards doesn't mean that lawyers are out there raking in the bucks on every case. They lose alot, they get screwed alot, along with their clients.

.

They lie...outright..knowingly present falsified evidence and hide behind the legal fictions...thats how they do it... No you don't win every cases...so its based on volume...you file suits regardless of their merits and see who settles or what sticks..in my experience i would say 80% of the cases filed are absolutely frivilous and are nothing but extortion....If you could only sit in a partners meeting when they are in private and hear these vultures...you would hopefully be as disgusted as I was...They are ruining this country...and not one politician has even the balls to mntion the word legal reform.....
 
SINthysist said:
Does anyone know what happened to the massive amounts of money the rest of America sent for the victims. Seems to me there's some sort of crime here somewhere that WE need to focus on more than trial lawyers (unless they're involved in that fraud, too)...

Yep, there was a big stink over that. Bill O'Rielly led the charge on that one. The American Red Cross and the United Way got hammered. The United Way even funded the law firm defending the terrorists. :rolleyes: They're all under a microscope now.

Ishmael
 
The no-spin meister is currently on a crusade against lying defense lawyers. Have you heard him?
 
TWB said:

Punitive damages are always a difficult uphill battle for any lawyer representing someone who has been injured. The big recoveries you read about are few and far between.

This is a little off topic, but it is fairly closely related. It has to do with Tort in Medicine in Minnesota and problems with "Trial Lawyers".

A. Doctor guilty of elder abuse for undertreating pain, AMNEWS 7/23/01.
Yes, this is doctor hell. Now anyone can sue us if they feel we haven't given enough narcotics.
Somehow, all those post-op studies showing NSAID's are comparable to narcotics are irrelevant in the lawyer's playground. Think of the endless lawsuit possibilities here!

B. CT scans in children linked to cancer, USA TODAY, 1/22/01 and 1/23/01
The American College of Radiology didn't exactly deny this on 1/23/01. Yet, a 1 : 1,000 risk of future cancer is astounding. Sadly, defensive medicine had made CT's, in kids, in the 1990's a routine thing. Now thousands will die later in life from these decisions.....Yet, a trial lawyer will rip a doctor in court next week for "failing to get a CT scan for a kid's abdominal pain." Do you want to scream? We do!

C. Ritalin and APA sued, AAPS news, January 2001
The anti-tobacco lawyers are leading another crusade. While Ritalin is certainly overused, how is this possibly a legal action. A: Money, money, money.......

Best old ones, circa 2000:

1. Physicians enticed into early retirement, AMNEWS, 7/24/00, pp1-2
Highlights include:
*This is the next crisis. Financial stability allows most competent doctors to be financially secure by their mid-50's. This article shows the doctors' disdain for our current situation and this has become the worst crisis in the North metro area of MN. Doctors are bailing and patients can't get into clinics while ER waits can easily hit 6+ hours even in the summer! In our area: HMO limits, Government regulations, and a vicious trial bar and press seem to be the big reasons people want out.

2. The reign of the tort kings, U.S. News&World Report, pp.36-40,11/1/99 OLDIE BUT GOODY
Highlights include: Election Bingo! Election Bingo!
*10% of all Democratic Congressional donations, 1/1/98-6/30/99?; That's right: trial attorneys!!
*Interviewee talks about using past windfalls to target new businesses (asbestos windfall fronts tobacco attack). Who's next?
*The 12 law firms leading the tobacco lawsuits lead the way in 1999 donations........
*The Chamber of Commerce is lobbying for a startling idea: any lawyer donating more than $250 to a politician counldn't be hired by that official to "file a lawsuit." Hmmm, Humphrey/Ciresi come to anyone's mind? Didn't Mike have a pretty picture in the article, too (or was it constipation?)?
*The truly ominous story ending: another interviewee states (paraphrase), "what Congress won't regulate is ripe for us (trial attorney) to step in." Hence, the death of the Republic is at hand.

3. Bone marrow transplants for breast cancer, all papers, 2/20/2000
Highlights include (some redemption above):
*Not helpful, fradulent research to boot. Was this a trial attorney gravy train in the 1990's? Minnesota's Attorney General ran his "suing HMO's for bone marrow transplants" as a cornerstone to his 1998 TV campaign. His OAG web biography also still heralds this "great effort." Well, it turns out those evil HMO's were right on this one, but no media follow-up has appeared asking for apologies to HMO's, taxpayers, or society. This was a nationwide lawyer ruse--there are probably accomplices in your state. You're just lucky enough not to have one as your state's top legal officer.
 
Last edited:
Geez, guys....lawyers are people, too.

Although I would never claim them all to be angels they wouldn't do what they do if they didn't have Joe Blow to hire them. They have clients who want those settlements, ya know. Sure there are ambulance chasers, I suppose but even they need a willing client. Any of them can be prone to that human greed, even the physician who stretches the need for testing or treatment so he can get a little more fee, or the politician who accepts campaign contributions with (invisible) strings attached.

Curtsy to those who always rise above greed and desire....where ever you are.
 
Back
Top