Transcending the man and women

[Reynard11]

Hello,

I am new to the world of BDSM, heading to my first munch next monday, and am an artist interested in the subterranean. The theme that has constantly surrounded myself and my work my entire life is identity. While trying to come up with an idea for a music video I was working on, listening to the song, which was Deftones "Swerve City," the idea of BDSM, particularly the Bondage and Sadomasochism aspects, came to mind.

Knowing very little about the acts, one of the first concepts that came was using the theme of deception, having a "female" dom giving her costumers what they asked for, not knowing that the dom was really a man...yet, something rubbed me the wrong way. At first I thought, "What does it matter if they know if the dom is a man or a woman, as long as they gets their kicks..." Hmph. After checking my ignorance at the door and doing a "tip of the iceberg" amount of research, I found just how wrong I was.

3 words stuck out: Safe, Sane, Consensual. That right there made me toss out the concept. Then, learning about the trust, love, and spiritual high one or many can gain while under the act, I wanted to explore the theme of role-play and of course, identity further. Looking at BDSM through ignorant eyes is something I'd want to help breakdown in the video.

As I said before, Identity surrounds me and the acts of role-play within the BDSM world are intriguing. Finally my question: I've learned of switches, the individuals who like to be both top and bottom, but what about the switch of sexuality? Have any male bottoms been interested in wanting to know what it would be like to be a female top? Vice versa? What if the male bottom and female top switched, transcending one another to feel what it's like to be one another. This is the concept that I have come up with, and am now wondering if this is the norm within the world or if I should be looked at with troublesome virtual eyes?

Thank you for your time,
Best,
Reynard The Red Fox

 

[Reynard11]

...

Was it something i said???

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah.. I can't figure out where to start!
I'll be back with thinkies maybe later today.

but my first comment is that Biology is not destiny.

 

[Reynard11]

I don't have the intention of turning a man into a woman and a woman into man. What i want to explore is the act of the role-play, which leads to the transcending of the 2 during the act, not a lifetime. A good place to start would be here: fIf role-play is such a large part of BDSM, wouldn't the switch of sexualities be something to explore?
Thanks for responding.

Reynard

 

[Netzach]

A ton of people do "genderfuck" as a form of play and activity, and people role play every permutation of existence, right down to animals and objects.

 

[Allyourbase]

A ton of people do "genderfuck" as a form of play and activity, and people role play every permutation of existence, right down to animals and objects.

This ^

I switch genders as well as top/bottom and D/s roles, but I'm not sure it can be regarded as role-playing. The genders are not roles.

 

[KoPilot]

I have no gender, present as "male" sometimes, present as androgynous most others, and I'm still just as much of a sub as I was before I figured out what I was. And I plan on being just as much of one after I've had some ladyparts removed too.

Gender roles are dumb and have no place in my kink.

 

[KoPilot]

I am also coming back in here to mention that every time I see the title of this thread ("man and women") I gigglesnort and think "harem anime".

 

[Dyslexicea]

Maybe I'm just easily confused but to switch genders you'd have to define what each gender is. If I happened to dress masculine it wouldn't make me a man, for me I'd be playing Butch, which I'm not. None of us are one thing, none of us fit a definition of gender. Female equals feminine, male equals masculine it isn't the way life is.

Give me a good definition of feminine, exactly what traits are included. Give me a good definition of masculine, exactly what traits are included. After you do so, show me one woman who fits your list of femininity, you won't find any. Same goes for men. We all are a combination of both the feminine and masculine. Some men can be very feminine, some women can be very masculine.

Shave your legs, back, chest, arms, even your anus, tape your cock between your legs, put on a wig, dress up in a dress, wear panties and a bra or sexy lingerie. Act how you think a woman acts. Nothing wrong with that if that's your kink but what you are not doing is switching genders, you are playing a role, you are acting. You'll still be a man, your partner is still going to be a woman, you have not switched genders.

 

[Allyourbase]

Maybe I'm just easily confused but to switch genders you'd have to define what each gender is. If I happened to dress masculine it wouldn't make me a man, for me I'd be playing Butch, which I'm not. None of us are one thing, none of us fit a definition of gender. Female equals feminine, male equals masculine it isn't the way life is.

Give me a good definition of feminine, exactly what traits are included. Give me a good definition of masculine, exactly what traits are included. After you do so, show me one woman who fits your list of femininity, you won't find any. Same goes for men. We all are a combination of both the feminine and masculine. Some men can be very feminine, some women can be very masculine.

Shave your legs, back, chest, arms, even your anus, tape your cock between your legs, put on a wig, dress up in a dress, wear panties and a bra or sexy lingerie. Act how you think a woman acts. Nothing wrong with that if that's your kink but what you are not doing is switching genders, you are playing a role, you are acting. You'll still be a man, your partner is still going to be a woman, you have not switched genders.

Yeah, I agree, feminine is not female, masculine does not make a man.

To be able to explain what I mean by switching genders - and I can only speak for me - is dependent on whether I can get the point across that to me, bodies don't matter. And when it comes to gender, I like to determine for myself what they can look like.

There are people for whom I am a boy, including someone I dominate. They will refer to me as 'he', they see my body as belonging to me, so they see it as a boy's body, including the tits and hips and clit. Yes, that means that I don't necessarily have to bind my breasts, or wear a packer (I don't pack at all, actually). It has little to do with how I dress. I will sometimes even wear eyeshadow - feels very Placebo to me. I could even dress up fully like a girl, then I feel like a boy in drag. I can feel feminine or masculine, but still a boy inside.

With my long term partner, I am a girl. He knows I'm not your average kind of girl, though I do own some cute femme stuff, and I used to wear that a lot, mostly I'm quite a tomboy these days. Yet I don't slip into the 'boy' headspace entirely around him. Especially when we play and I sub. Then my parts are girl parts. And whether I'm feminine or masculine, dressed butch or femme, I am still a girl then.

Subbing as a boy is probably very enjoyable, but (besides some online flirting) haven't experienced that really yet. Femdom does not come easily to me, I tried, I know.

These things are not 'roles', I am not 'playing' any of these genders, they are just there, inside of me, or they aren't - some days there's just no gender at all.

And now I am... not sure I am making sense to anyone other than myself here. Oh well.

 

[Allyourbase]

Act how you think a woman acts. Nothing wrong with that if that's your kink but what you are not doing is switching genders, you are playing a role, you are acting. You'll still be a man, your partner is still going to be a woman, you have not switched genders.

uh huh...

or as the case may be, you'll still be a man, and so will your partner?

Or, as the case may be, you have switched genders.

you know... I rarely think of myself as "male," if asked to self identify I am as likely to say "fae" as "male"

but I still have that supposedly masculine instinct to mutilate anyone who brings harm to my family.

(that is "normal"... right?)

Totally! Totally "normal".

eek

Also:

I am also coming back in here to mention that every time I see the title of this thread ("man and women") I gigglesnort and think "harem anime".

 

[Allyourbase]

... and that witnessing my reciprocation might harm my daughters far more than a mere bitch slap.

Depending on how bad your reciprocation would be, you could very well be right, there.

 

[Allyourbase]

well... most physical conflicts come down to who gets the drop on whom, who lands the first lucky blow, who arms themselves first. The fear is not about the scuffle, the fear is what happens should I win.

I was taught to fight until escape is plausible, not just until it's possible. A downed opponent who may or may not be armed and who may or may not be getting back up in a moment is not one I back off of.



Blades might be convenient I guess, if one were handy, but the human body is as surprisingly fragile as it is resilient. For instance; it only takes the weight of the head (approximately 14 lbs) on a fairly obvious pressure point to remove an eye from it's socket. If someone is already at your mercy; this requires precision or strength, not both. Human jaw strength is much better than we give it credit, and under the influence of adrenaline there are many parts of a human body which are relatively easy to bite off. Conversely, the jawbone is one of the most bow-shaped bones in the body, yet largely inflexible. It can rarely sustain the weight of a person without shattering.

That I am prone to laughing or crying during adrenaline rushes is as disconcerting as the possibility that I might not disengage from a downed opponent who has stricken one of my children.

That I have these thoughts occasionally, that *maybe* this monster is part of me, is half the reason I sometimes self identify as fae.

Wouldn't a normal person rush to the aid of the fallen? Would I? I'm not entirely certain.

Sorry to derail the conversation. Male or female are most often relevant to me when I am being prejudiced for or against, less and less otherwise.

*grins*

You do realize that post is three quarters 'blades' 'bones' 'bite off body parts' 'lucky blow' 'remove an eye from its socket'... ?


/derailment

What kind of gender prejudice do you experience? Also: that means gender is not a factor when you play?

 

[Dyslexicea]

Or, as the case may be, you have switched genders.

I really wasn't saying that some people can't switched genders, nor was I writing about trans, I was addressing a man who happens to want to play a game. He can play a gender role, but only as he see us women, not as we are, it's only a kink.

I'll let Stella answer for herself but I think she could easily switch genders. Personally I like her as a butch dyke.

 

[Allyourbase]

(...) I was addressing a man who happens to want to play a game. He can play a gender roles, but only as he see us women, not as we are, it's only a kink.

Oh, right! I get that now.

I understood the original question differently, not as the OP's personal kink, but that exploring the switches in gender combined with BDSM-roles was something the OP wanted to understand in order to make art.

Hello,

I (...) am an artist interested in the subterranean. The theme that has constantly surrounded myself and my work my entire life is identity. While trying to come up with an idea for a music video I was working on, listening to the song, which was Deftones "Swerve City," the idea of BDSM, particularly the Bondage and Sadomasochism aspects, came to mind. (...) Looking at BDSM through ignorant eyes is something I'd want to help breakdown in the video.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If I can unscramble my wits here;
Regardless of the BDSM setting, what you are thinking about here is identity; this big stew full of the bits and pieces that make up you, both within yourself and in relation to your community.
some, but by no means all, of those identity fragments are;

Sex-- the genital conformation that dictates your role in procreation should you take part in such.

Gender-- the feeling in your head of being male or female or a combo or neither.
(also Gender presentation; the set of role rules you feel are correct for the gender you are.)

Orientation the gender/sex combination that you prefer to partner up with-- hetero, bi, homo, queer, none at all, everyone.

Dominant/submissive-- your preference for following or leading within a relationship, which might be a sometimes thing, or situational, or absolute.

Top/bottom (also might be thought of as active/receptive or something? Top/bottom still has that sense of hierarchy, and the concept needs to be free of that) Your preference for being done unto, or doing unto.

So there's a bunch of things that are a thing. And they can manifest in about a bazillion ways, for any person you care to talk to. What someone has between their legs doesn't mean they have what you might expect in their heads.

So what I mean when I say that Biology is not destiny;
I get creeped out by the hetero notion that once a Dom always a Dom-- especially for men, once a sub-- especially women-- always a sweet little subby. I get creeped by the notion that receptive sexuality is passive, that the big peenman drives his mighty dong into the little woman who lays there in her properly ecstatic place under the man and thus takes her place in the long parade of perfect hetero harmony.

But that's just me. Lots of people really love that stuff!

dyslexica

 

[Reynard11]

men AND WOMEN!!!

Right after the OP, I started to think, "wait, what defines a man and a woman?" So to say I posted with a full, concrete idea in my head isn't false, but I wouldn't of learned as much as I have, and now fully aware of harem anime. Ha. Sorry about the misogynistic title.

But a female wanting to dress in male clothing, and a male in female clothing, which is nothing new, so they could get a sense of the other gender within themselves. This is something that intruigied my interest, and now started to help answer my question about what makes a human being, similar to what was commented by Allyourbase...


Yeah, I agree, feminine is not female, masculine does not make a man.

To be able to explain what I mean by switching genders - and I can only speak for me - is dependent on whether I can get the point across that to me, bodies don't matter. And when it comes to gender, I like to determine for myself what they can look like.

There are people for whom I am a boy, including someone I dominate. They will refer to me as 'he', they see my body as belonging to me, so they see it as a boy's body, including the tits and hips and clit. Yes, that means that I don't necessarily have to bind my breasts, or wear a packer (I don't pack at all, actually). It has little to do with how I dress. I will sometimes even wear eyeshadow - feels very Placebo to me. I could even dress up fully like a girl, then I feel like a boy in drag. I can feel feminine or masculine, but still a boy inside.

With my long term partner, I am a girl. He knows I'm not your average kind of girl, though I do own some cute femme stuff, and I used to wear that a lot, mostly I'm quite a tomboy these days. Yet I don't slip into the 'boy' headspace entirely around him. Especially when we play and I sub. Then my parts are girl parts. And whether I'm feminine or masculine, dressed butch or femme, I am still a girl then.

Would it be shallow of me to dress the 2 up in opposite gear, having them explore themselves to find out that one day they wont need the gear, transcending gender all together, such as someone like Allyourbase? I think, after reading these posts, that is closer to the world of BDSM and what I wanted to say.

Thanks again,
Reynard11

 

[Allyourbase]

(...) one day they wont need the gear, transcending gender all together, such as someone like Allyourbase?

Thanks for the compliment, though I'm not sure I transcended gender. When you say that, I think of someone like KoPilot, rather than me. Maybe what I said sounds rather smooth, on this page, but it's a rough around the edges kind of thing in real life.

As for the rest of your post, must think some more.

 

[Netzach]

This ^

I switch genders as well as top/bottom and D/s roles, but I'm not sure it can be regarded as role-playing. The genders are not roles.

For me it was always somewhere between playing and doing, but not tied to my parts enough to feel one way about them or another. I still don't think they make me especially anything, they're what I get to work with. I like being a canvas for "feminine" well enough, but that's my relationship to it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

<snip>
Again, extrapolating on this too much not only upsets me more and more, but strays from actual experience (which was hard enough) to perception of what that experience may mean about the world at large.

I have much more painful experiences with "reverse gender bias," which I've brought up several times... much abridged version; cornered in a parking lot by an ex, dragged out of my car, defended myself, spent the weekend in jail, required to take group batterer's counseling...

..where ironically I came to understand (in a humiliating group session) that she had been raping me on a regular basis.


I have talked about this before, I could discuss it more, just not with a migraine. sorry.

Yes, you have, and again I am blown away by your being able to talk about it at all, and thank you for that

Most people here have already heard this, but just in case a newby is reading along, listen to Stag and to Unca Stella; -- the rape culture in this society, the denial of rape as a legitimate thing hurts men too.

Women CAN and DO rape-- it's just more hidden because men have a vested interest in hiding it from themselves. As long as men deny rape culture exists, women will also be able to get away with rape.

I hate the constant bombardment of what men are supposed to be, I have never felt insecure in my sexuality for lack of any of those things. My wife sometimes says I am more masculine for quietly defying most such conventions.

I have rarely, if ever, felt particularly masculine. With the barrage of false definitions of men though; who really knows what masculinity even is anymore?

Is gender a factor when I play? in so much as I am het; sure. If a prospective partner is looking for masculine, they typically look right through me.

PS: Stella's seperation of gender identity from orientation I think leaves a perfect niche for "guys" like me, who are physically male, heterosexual, but don't strongly identify as "male," in so much as I tend to disassociate with typical "guy" things.

Yes, exactly!

*pumps fist*

 

[Allyourbase]

I have much more painful experiences with "reverse gender bias," which I've brought up several times... much abridged version; cornered in a parking lot by an ex, dragged out of my car, defended myself, spent the weekend in jail, required to take group batterer's counseling...

..where ironically I came to understand (in a humiliating group session) that she had been raping me on a regular basis.

Dude...!

Yes, you have, and again I am blown away by your being able to talk about it at all, and thank you for that

Most people here have already heard this, but just in case a newby is reading along, listen to Stag and to Unca Stella; -- the rape culture in this society, the denial of rape as a legitimate thing hurts men too.

Women CAN and DO rape-- it's just more hidden because men have a vested interest in hiding it from themselves. As long as men deny rape culture exists, women will also be able to get away with rape.

Amen.

 

[KoPilot]

Yes, you have, and again I am blown away by your being able to talk about it at all, and thank you for that

Most people here have already heard this, but just in case a newby is reading along, listen to Stag and to Unca Stella; -- the rape culture in this society, the denial of rape as a legitimate thing hurts men too.

Women CAN and DO rape-- it's just more hidden because men have a vested interest in hiding it from themselves. As long as men deny rape culture exists, women will also be able to get away with rape. Yes, exactly!

*pumps fist*

Ding ding ding ding ding

Stag of Oberon, you're a brave fuckin soul and I'm sad and angry about what happened to you and that it continues to happen to lots of other men.

 

[KoPilot]

I really wasn't saying that some people can't switched genders, nor was I writing about trans, I was addressing a man who happens to want to play a game. He can play a gender role, but only as he see us women, not as we are, it's only a kink.

I'll let Stella answer for herself but I think she could easily switch genders. Personally I like her as a butch dyke.

How does one "transcend" gender by treating it like a game and playing into binarism like that?

 

[Stella_Omega]

How does one "transcend" gender by treating it like a game and playing into binarism like that?

It's the gateway drug.

 

[Reynard11]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiXaT_1I-vw

For all the men and woman