Traditional or not?

[MikeIvy]

I don't claim to be conversant with all the types and forms of poems, so I will leave that up to the more traditional of those poets on here.

I wonder it is bad form and does it make a poem less if it does not conform to the standards of traditional format(s)?

I guess I just write it as I see it in my mind, and don't really worry about matching words at the end of lines every 3 lines or whatever that type of poem is

opinions?

 

[Angeline]

Hi.

I feel that traditional form is good to at least understand because how can you deviate from it if you don't really know what it is? And for me practicing by writing different forms has always helped me focus on things like word choice and rhyme and the other poetic tools.

When I first really got into poetry I realized I could toss off a sonnet in 15 minutes and it became like a parlor trick. I actually had people asking me hey write me a sonnet about this or that and I did because I could! And then it felt very limiting to make my writing about that.

I think the best poems I've written are free verse but I get better at free verse because I think about and practice forms.

Some people here just hate formalism though. Get ready for people to disagree.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

If you're writing a form stick to it, if you're writing something else then don't .... make up your own as you go along. As long as you (and your readers) can see poetry in your creation it matters not, just don't call it a Villanelle when it obviously isn't
Personally I love to stick to certain forms. It's a challenge that I can make something readable without forcing rhymes in for the sake of it nothing is more cringe making than a forced in rhyme, plus I must admit I find them far easier than free verse.

 

[MikeIvy]

If you're writing a form stick to it, if you're writing something else then don't .... make up your own as you go along. As long as you (and your readers) can see poetry in your creation it matters not, just don't call it a Villanelle when it obviously isn't
Personally I love to stick to certain forms. It's a challenge that I can make something readable without forcing rhymes in for the sake of it nothing is more cringe making than a forced in rhyme, plus I must admit I find them far easier than free verse.

Well..I have no clue what the hell I write....

 

[UnderYourSpell]

scroll down on THIS old survivor thread and you'll find some examples

 

[vrosej10]

Hi.

I feel that traditional form is good to at least understand because how can you deviate from it if you don't really know what it is? And for me practicing by writing different forms has always helped me focus on things like word choice and rhyme and the other poetic tools.

When I first really got into poetry I realized I could toss off a sonnet in 15 minutes and it became like a parlor trick. I actually had people asking me hey write me a sonnet about this or that and I did because I could! And then it felt very limiting to make my writing about that.

I think the best poems I've written are free verse but I get better at free verse because I think about and practice forms.

Some people here just hate formalism though. Get ready for people to disagree.

I know little about form poetry but in class we're told that play and creativity comes after you've mastered the skills. Study, learn meter and how forms work. Read formal poetry and then attack with gusto.

If you're writing a form stick to it, if you're writing something else then don't .... make up your own as you go along. As long as you (and your readers) can see poetry in your creation it matters not, just don't call it a Villanelle when it obviously isn't
Personally I love to stick to certain forms. It's a challenge that I can make something readable without forcing rhymes in for the sake of it nothing is more cringe making than a forced in rhyme, plus I must admit I find them far easier than free verse.

This is why I'm a haiku nazi. I love little poems but unless you are sure they are haikus, don't call them that. There's a western option for those who can't or won't confine themselves to the rules of haiku; its called a lune. Give it a whirl. You can rhyme, any subject is acceptable, any tense. It is as short as haiku but much more flexible.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Well..I have no clue what the hell I write....

Try:

a clue​

Good luck,

 

[twelveoone]

This is why I'm a haiku nazi. I love little poems but unless you are sure they are haikus, don't call them that. There's a western option for those who can't or won't confine themselves to the rules of haiku; its called a lune. Give it a whirl. You can rhyme, any subject is acceptable, any tense. It is as short as haiku but much more flexible.

http://simplyhaiku.com/index.html
http://www.hsa-haiku.org/archives/HSA_Definitions_2004.html#Haiku

http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000_07_01_happyhaiku_archive.html

I don't approve. I wish I had my old bookmarks, maybe the site is gone anyway. The Haiku, Japanese reading, word for word, and poet translation.

 

[twelveoone]

I don't claim to be conversant with all the types and forms of poems, so I will leave that up to the more traditional of those poets on here.

I wonder it is bad form and does it make a poem less if it does not conform to the standards of traditional format(s)?

I guess I just write it as I see it in my mind, and don't really worry about matching words at the end of lines every 3 lines or whatever that type of poem is

opinions?

Free Verse. After all this is America, land of the free; verse invented and perfected here.
It is more important to get fundamentals down, avoiding cliches. If you like rhyme quatrains it is a good building block.
One rule of thumb, read at least 10X as much as you write. Maybe more.
Now, question for you? Who do you read and why?

 

[vrosej10]

http://simplyhaiku.com/index.html
http://www.hsa-haiku.org/archives/HSA_Definitions_2004.html#Haiku

http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000_07_01_happyhaiku_archive.html

I don't approve. I wish I had my old bookmarks, maybe the site is gone anyway. The Haiku, Japanese reading, word for word, and poet translation.

I know. A sestina is not a sestina without sticking to certain rules. That doesn't mean the sestina like poems aren't great, it just means you shouldn't call it a sestina. The freedom in haiku is somewhat illusory; experts will tell you the rules of the genre aren't fixed, but in practice it doesn't work like that. There is some mutual agreement though nothing formal has been arranged. Most say read a lot and then suck it and see. They're kind of like porn; you couldn't define it but you know it when you see it.

Form is great up to a point. Writing outside form can be wonderful, but you can't get cred for using a form you're not and if anything it weakens the poem to suggest it is something it is not in anything but a satirical fashion.

We aren't going to agree on this one, but this is the one form where I have done my reading and payed a fair whack of dues.

 

[twelveoone]

I know. A sestina is not a sestina without sticking to certain rules. That doesn't mean the sestina like poems aren't great, it just means you shouldn't call it a sestina. The freedom in haiku is somewhat illusory; experts will tell you the rules of the genre aren't fixed, but in practice it doesn't work like that. There is some mutual agreement though nothing formal has been arranged. Most say read a lot and then suck it and see. They're kind of like porn; you couldn't define it but you know it when you see it.

Form is great up to a point. Writing outside form can be wonderful, but you can't get cred for using a form you're not and if anything it weakens the poem to suggest it is something it is not in anything but a satirical fashion.

We aren't going to agree on this one, but this is the one form where I have done my reading and payed a fair whack of dues.

just posted the links, my opin is they can't be written in English, I think I seen maybe two or three that came close here, probably all written by the same guy.

 

[vrosej10]

just posted the links, my opin is they can't be written in English, I think I seen maybe two or three that came close here, probably all written by the same guy.

Those links didn't take me to stuff like that....hmm...I partially agree. There is a school of thought that English haiku is a separate animal to Japanese. I subscribe to that, and this being so, the rule I mentioned do apply to writing in English. Japanese is another area and one I am not completely qualified to comment.

 

[MikeIvy]

Free Verse. After all this is America, land of the free; verse invented and perfected here.
It is more important to get fundamentals down, avoiding cliches. If you like rhyme quatrains it is a good building block.
One rule of thumb, read at least 10X as much as you write. Maybe more.
Now, question for you? Who do you read and why?

Richard Massey...he brings history to life. Tom Clancy...He has the military and all it's black areas down. J.R.R Tolken...king...

I read topics as opposed to authors.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I know little about form poetry but in class we're told that play and creativity comes after you've mastered the skills. Study, learn meter and how forms work. Read formal poetry and then attack with gusto.



This is why I'm a haiku nazi. I love little poems but unless you are sure they are haikus, don't call them that. There's a western option for those who can't or won't confine themselves to the rules of haiku; its called a lune. Give it a whirl. You can rhyme, any subject is acceptable, any tense. It is as short as haiku but much more flexible.

*goes looking for lunes, as if I wasn't loony enough already*

 

[twelveoone]

Richard Massey...he brings history to life. Tom Clancy...He has the military and all it's black areas down. J.R.R Tolken...king...

I read topics as opposed to authors.

Poets?
I know tolkien wrote some but it was sort of elvish,

 

[MikeIvy]

Poets?
I know tolkien wrote some but it was sort of elvish,

He wrote quite a lot of poems.

 

[twelveoone]

He wrote quite a lot of poems.

Mike, I am suggesting you start reading more poets, if you want to write poetry, It's a good thing to do.
Probably good to start in the 20th century

 

[jthserra]

Writing in traditional formats as poetry training

I don't claim to be conversant with all the types and forms of poems, so I will leave that up to the more traditional of those poets on here.

I wonder it is bad form and does it make a poem less if it does not conform to the standards of traditional format(s)?

I guess I just write it as I see it in my mind, and don't really worry about matching words at the end of lines every 3 lines or whatever that type of poem is

opinions?

While it is neither good form nor bad form to write poetry that doesn't conform to the traditional formats, I think any poet wanting to write better, wanting to expand his craft, and to better understand what you really are writing should try to work in as many of the differing forms as you possibly can. It is the manipulation of words, rhythms, sounds, rhyme, style, meter, etc, etc, where you really learn to make poetry sing. I have to believe the work you put in searching the exact word combination for a sestina, or the meter of a sonnet or find the best solution to a rhyme scheme in an invaluable exercise in writing any type of poetry, even free form.

Look for Turco's Book of Forms, or any of several other good books on poetic forms and set aside some time to attempt the differing forms. Even if what you create is not particularly good, just the exercise of working the language to fit these forms will aid you in your poetry and even your prose. And hey, you may find some forms you enjoy or are particularly adept at and choose to continue writing some more formal poetry.

jth : )

 

[twelveoone]

adding,
Poetic Meter and Poetic Form by Paul Fussell
which also has a short section on the strengths of the form, I've seen it in other books, but he looks the most reasonable.

 

[vrosej10]

The Poems Heartbeat by Alfred Corn is a pretty good book on meter. I know Mike that you're in a writing program, so a book that might suit you is Writing Poems by Michelle Boisseau, Robert Wallace, and Randall Mann. I really liked this one and it is sympathetic with the teaching styles used in universities.

 

[MikeIvy]

The Poems Heartbeat by Alfred Corn is a pretty good book on meter. I know Mike that you're in a writing program, so a book that might suit you is Writing Poems by Michelle Boisseau, Robert Wallace, and Randall Mann. I really liked this one and it is sympathetic with the teaching styles used in universities.

I will endevor to read these books, My thanks to all of you for the time and suggestions, right now Iam a$$ deep in a research project that should pay pretty good (I hope)

 

[vrosej10]

I will endevor to read these books, My thanks to all of you for the time and suggestions, right now Iam a$$ deep in a research project that should pay pretty good (I hope)

There's this cool online secondhand book store called betterworld books where you can buy a lot of poetry stuff cheap. I'm regular. It is recycling at its best and the money raised goes to literacy programs, something near and dear to my heart. I can't even imagine the horror of not being able to read.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

There's this cool online secondhand book store called betterworld books where you can buy a lot of poetry stuff cheap. I'm regular. It is recycling at its best and the money raised goes to literacy programs, something near and dear to my heart. I can't even imagine the horror of not being able to read.

I've looked that up and saved to favs thanks, at first glance it seems to be all in dollars so I'll have to have a better look later. I can't remember not being able to read apparently I picked it up somewhere before I even got to school!

 

[vrosej10]

I've looked that up and saved to favs thanks, at first glance it seems to be all in dollars so I'll have to have a better look later. I can't remember not being able to read apparently I picked it up somewhere before I even got to school!

It is a really good site. I have a vast collection of books collected from there and the prices and service are really good.

i was reading novels in kindy and my son was reading at 18 months old as is my two year old nephew. It seems to be in our genes to decode patterns. I can learn to read other languages reasonably easily too. Funny thing though, both my sister and brother had difficulty learning.

 

[twelveoone]

I don't claim to be conversant with all the types and forms of poems, so I will leave that up to the more traditional of those poets on here.

I wonder it is bad form and does it make a poem less if it does not conform to the standards of traditional format(s)?

I guess I just write it as I see it in my mind, and don't really worry about matching words at the end of lines every 3 lines or whatever that type of poem is

opinions?

Depends on your audience. I see something perfectly in line. I see a dead fish, just you haven't caught a whiff of it yet. So yes, dead fish are what you want to eat, but don't swim well.
How's that for a prose haiku VR?