TPE Ethics, hypothetical situations, power and responsibility

[catalina_francisco]

It has been suggested to discuss TPE (Total Power Exchange) and all that is connected to it.

"Being your slave, what should I do but tend upon the hours and times of your desire?"
William Shakespeare (Sonnet LVII)

Lets start by defining what we are discussing.
A definition of TPE from the book "Screw The Roses Give me the Thorns":
"TPE is the empowerment of the Dominant BY the submissive's surrender to His/Her control. The power exchange is consensual and should be well negotiated. The depth of power yielded by the submissive is equal to the level of responsibility assumed by the Dominant."

TPE is for many a dream, an impossibility, unattainable and not a dream but a nightmare. TPE relationships are constructed on an asymmetric power structure which can pervade all aspects (even money, property, decisions and job) of the relationship. In essence TPE is flexible in the amount of power exchanged between the involved parties. The flexibility is not liked by some in the TPE environment which is why APE (Absolute Power Exchange) has been called to life. IMHO TPE is D/s which is unlimited in scope, the submissive partner is subject to the dominant partner's wishes and directions in all matters, without any restrictions whatsoever. I would like to invite others to share their interpretation and/or understanding of TPE, and to share their experiences in relation to it. It might be interesting to explore and discuss the boundaries of the TPE lifestyle in real and hypothetical situations from a realistic viewpoint.

Francisco.

 

[Quint]

It doesn't blow my mind to conceive of a relationship where one partner WILL do what their partner dictates, regardless of individual desire or revulsion. I may not be able to conceive of myself in said situation, but I don't find myself questioning the sanity of those who can and are. That does not denote irresponsibility in my eyes, merely that the dominant partner must be as responsible as the two people would have been otherwise. It's a matter of priority, and I can't think of anything more individual than that.

 

[s'lara]

edited for an errant finger.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

i guess basically what i want to say about TPE is that i think its fine-i have nothing against it and have even considered living that way. will i ever? who knows. i guess where i have a problem with it is if the Dominant asked the submissive to do something seriously immoral. i dont mean immoral like slapping the face of a girl he didnt like, cuz he was mad. i mean immoral like asking his sub to bear him a child, which he would then raise as a slave, in the bdsm lifestyle (might as well get right to it). i dont care how much of a sub someone is..how much they love their master, how loyal they are, how much they believe in TPE-i think if a master told his/her slave to do such a thing, that the slave should refuse. is the slave then not really a slave, if they refuse? maybe. but isnt this all really a huge case of semantics anyways? is anyone really someone else's "slave"?

were i to get into a TPE with the man i love, i would do pretty much absolutely anything for him. i feel that way right now even tho we're not in TPE. id do something for him even if it put me in grave danger. but when it comes to a child-if he asked me to bear one for him to abuse-i would not only tell him no, i would leave. pack my shit and go. and its as simple as that. if that makes me "not a true sub", "not a true slave", "not ready or able to enter into a TPE" then so be it.

 

[Pure]

There have been many attempts to define the elusive "Total Power Exchange," and critiques of the concept** within the community: It's unclear what's exchanged, if anything. Power for power; power for orgasms ("I do as directed and come like a freight train"); power for satisfaction in a role ("I'm a good slave); or whatever.

Quint has stated the common sense of it (A has total power over B):

It doesn't bow my mind to conceive of a relationship where one partner WILL do what their partner dictates, regardless of individual desire or revulsion.

The situation of more or less absolute/unlimited patriarchy-- as in Roman times--fits. OR absolute matriarchy.

What Quint says is far from what most TPE folks [including Philip Miller, et al., in, _Screw the Roses..._], apparently mean. It's far from what F and C have described of themselves iirc.

The bdsm mainstream has a dialect where words have a peculiar meaning at a distance from their plain, everyday, dictionary meaning: power, domination, submission, slavery, exchange, etc.
---

**and discussions in many threads whose urls some may post.

 

[sunfox]

What I understand from the first post is that TPE is somewhat flexible, while APE would be considered to not be.

So were I to enter into TPE, I would do so with the knowledge beforehand that there are some things that will not happen, or will require a resettling of the rules between us. Things that are absolutely outside the relationship. I don't know if that would be correct or not.. but it is how I see the explanation.

Whereas, if I were in an absolute power exchange.. it would be exactly that, absolute. No input, just completely at his mercy and in his control.. and I would just have to hope that he would do nothing to injure me permanently or hurt my soul.

Feel free to refute my take.. I'm just trying to figure it out in my head.

Edited to add: Sorry, Pure, we posted at the same time, and I didn't get to see yours.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It doesn't blow my mind to conceive of a relationship where one partner WILL do what their partner dictates, regardless of individual desire or revulsion. I may not be able to conceive of myself in said situation, but I don't find myself questioning the sanity of those who can and are. That does not denote irresponsibility in my eyes, merely that the dominant partner must be as responsible as the two people would have been otherwise. It's a matter of priority, and I can't think of anything more individual than that.

Thank you Quint for contributing, your post is very eloquently written and I can only agree with what I extract from your message. I believe that the Dominant partner has to carry the responsibility for himself and his partner(s).

Francìsco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

edited for an errant finger.

I wonder I wonder what the errant finger was about.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

What Quint says is far from what most TPE folks [including Philip Miller, et al., in, _Screw the Roses..._], apparently mean. It's far from what F and C have described of themselves iirc.

The bdsm mainstream has a dialect where words have a peculiar meaning at a distance from their plain, everyday, dictionary meaning: power, domination, submission, slavery, exchange, etc.
---

**and discussions in many threads whose urls some may post.

I wonder what you are meaning with this Pure, I can agree full-hearted with Quint 's statement.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

What I understand from the first post is that TPE is somewhat flexible, while APE would be considered to not be.

So were I to enter into TPE, I would do so with the knowledge beforehand that there are some things that will not happen, or will require a resettling of the rules between us. Things that are absolutely outside the relationship. I don't know if that would be correct or not.. but it is how I see the explanation.

Whereas, if I were in an absolute power exchange.. it would be exactly that, absolute. No input, just completely at his mercy and in his control.. and I would just have to hope that he would do nothing to injure me permanently or hurt my soul.

Feel free to refute my take.. I'm just trying to figure it out in my head.

Edited to add: Sorry, Pure, we posted at the same time, and I didn't get to see yours.

I believe you are expressing the mainstream view, however I do not believe in APE. I mentioned it because the terminology is gaining popularity and it would seem to be a good starting point for a discussion about TPE. Some people have actually instead of using TPE have started to use NTPE (near total power exchange).

To me there is no real distinction; it is what the partners in the relationship make of it.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

[snip] but when it comes to a child-if he asked me to bear one for him to abuse-i would not only tell him no, i would leave. pack my shit and go. and its as simple as that. if that makes me "not a true sub", "not a true slave", "not ready or able to enter into a TPE" then so be it. [/snip]

You are correct in that a child should always be kept out of BDSM and TPE; at least that is my opinion. I think that the responsibility within a TPE should be carried by the Dominant partner but I can not imagine any person to betray a child to that degree. There are mental blocks and moral blocks in place in our society which should prevent this from happening. Unfortunately in reality humans sometimes do treat children in the most horrible fashion.

The point in my view is that TPE should be consensual slavery, meaning the submissive should give themselves to the Dominant. A child can not give or consent to anything and should not be considered part of the TPE. Even with the Dominant being responsible for the actions of his partner this does not include ownership over a human being which has not consented to be a slave. This is not a new viewpoint I think it was made before by sunfox in the BDSM and Impregnation thread. Of course all depends on how much value you give on the consenting part.

Francisco.

 

[NCShin]

I'm a tiny bit confused.

I was under the impression that any parent who was able and willing to control their child was in fact in some form of TPE with their child.

Children (without my having any, and only from my observations from being one) have no power.

Think about a child for a moment. What are they not dependant on their parents for? Not much. I can't speak for parents today, but when I was growing up I was nearly always being told what to do.

Mow the lawn, clean your room, take the garbage out, rake the leaves, shovel the snow, come inside, go to bed, do your homework etc etc etc.

Those are just some of the "chores" I was responsible for. If I failed to do them, there would be some form of punishment. No TV, not allowed out, and when I was fairly young even a spanking. (Parents stopped that when I started laughing in their face)

Now, I know what sigsauerprinces is getting at. She means that it would be in a bad way. Maybe some sexual pedophile sense with bondage and all included.

I guess I just can't even imagine it as my idea of D/s. I can’t imagine using physical bondage on any child, never mind my own. However, isn’t grounding your child a form of bondage? (mental bondage) So with that I call it something else. Parenting. Because no matter how much I hated to mow the lawn, I know that it was good for me to do it.

As for TPE with a partner, as has been talked about there are many levels of that.

There is a poster here who's posts all sound the same. "I am a slave, I have no choice, I do what master says because he says it and I do it for his pleasure only."

To me, that gets VERY boring. I could never imagine myself in that situation. I want a mind to go along with my submissive partner. Sometimes it is nice to spar with your partner about some political view that you don't agree on. To dictate thoughts (something i view as dictated in TOTAL, or ABSOLUTE power exchange) does nothing for me.

I sometimes read in stories here on lit where people in TPE feed their "slave" because she is not allowed to feed herself. This again, is just another example of something I don't see myself ever wanting. Sure, it could be fun to have her tied up in a long bondage session once in a while, and decide to feed her dinner while she's in her bounds, but the level of micromanagement needed to do it on a daily basis is more than I am looking for.

 

[sunfox]

Catalina_Francisco:

I agree.. I have no real understanding from a personal standpoint of TPE or APE, whether the same or a different thing.. all I can do is try to wrap my brain around it as I see it described. I would guess that it's all in the people it involves.. some might see it as NCShin said, as micromanaging every detail, some don't because that would be difficult, and perhaps tiring/boring, to have to do. It is an interesting thread, and I'll be following it.. TPE isn't something that interests me, mostly because I have an impressionable little one in the house but the concept interests me, and how far it can go.

NCShin:

I think raising a child is very different from having a TPE relationship. I guide my child, I made choices to keep her safe.. but when she gets older and capable of making choices for herself, I won't be directing her life for her. My parents gave me a lot of freedom, with the understanding that my choices were my own, and I had to pay the price for them. Yes, I had to clean my room, or do chores, but so did they, after all.. it wasn't like I was a house slave to pick up after them. That's just part of maintaining a house and a family. But TPE is a consensual power exchange. A parent/child relationship is not necessarily consensual. It's biological.

But I do agree with your opinion that in some cases, TPE could be considered overmanaging a relationship between two people. But I think it also depends on the amount of power exchange they practice.

 

[sexymom]

I don't think we should ever, ever, be held accountable for our fantasies, so long as that's all they are.

In the real world, I think it is very legitimate, perhaps even desirable, to consider people's values and morals based on what they would permit- what acts they would allow to go on, without opposition. That was my original problem with tpe- I thought these were people with no standards; no moral codes.

After reading all the comments here and, particularly on the original thread, I now realize that it is my concept of tpe that was wrong. Catalina, Francisco, and osg all three pointed out that their relationships were based on compatibility- in other words, tpe means having no power or no limits, provided you are owned or controlled by someone who wouldn't require you to do things which would be out of your limits if you had limits. This is evidenced by the repeated, emphatic "that would never happen in my relationship" statements, and by Francisco's statement that Cat would rearrange his anatomy if he attempted to abuse a child.

I never thought of myself as being in a tpe relationship, but it is much closer than I thought, given what I have learned here.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello NCShin,

IMHO you have actually brought up a point why children can never be part of TPE. In TPE there is a negotiated exchange of power, since by your own words children do not poses power they can not exchange power which then leads to them not being able to be part of TPE.

There is also a misconception which I have encountered many times. It seems that people think that a TPE slave is not to have a brain, or that they are supposed to be mindless robots which agree with everything the Dominant says. Well yes I suppose that TPE could be that for certain people. I happen to believe that my partner’s brain is also my property and I also enjoy a good discussion. It really all depends on what the Dominant wants or expects from his property.

Francisco.

 

[NCShin]

Catalina_Francisco:

But I do agree with your opinion that in some cases, TPE could be considered overmanaging a relationship between two people. But I think it also depends on the amount of power exchange they practice.

I don't have much desire for a TPE relationship so take my opinions of what it is and should be with a grain of salt.

Some things that I view as micromanagement if they are done ALL the time. (nearly anything can be fun once in a while)

Feeding a submissive. This to me is highly symbolic. In my opinion, no one who is hand fed can help but see the person feeding them as a provider. It is a very deeply rooted instinctual act and reaction. You'll see vanilla lovers doing this as well, although to a much lesser degree.

Picking clothing that the submissive can wear. Again, something that can be fun once in a while, but another thing I see as micromanagement in the longer term. I think however that this is done naturally in every relationship. I'd rather go shopping with the sub and agree on what she buys, that way I already "approve" of everything she has to begin with.

The last thing I want is to have to approve every little aspect of another person's life. What they can eat, when they can eat, when they can go to the bathroom, or go food shopping, what they can buy once they get there. I guess I just can't find the allure of it.

Now after all of that is said, I do see some allure in having control over something such as her orgasms. While I wouldn't want her calling me at work for permission to use the toilet, I can see the fun in having her call me at work for permission to masturbate.

I guess after typing all of this, IF i was to ever consider a TPE type of relationship it would have to be a total power exchange in the sense of sexuality.

 

[ownedsubgal]

TPE...like so many terms and ideas within the lifestyle, is one of those things that can mean two drastically different things to any two different people. i have a hard time referring to my own relationship as a TPE without chewing on my bottom lip a bit...because i'm not sure if the words...total, power, EXCHANGE, really fit us. it implies that i had this great deal of power and control previously, and handed it over to my Master. not quite how it happened. so i will usually say M/s. but to not make this a semantics issue, i will stick with TPE for the purposes of this particular topic.

some do not take the idea of slavery in D/s very seriously...their argument, well slavery is not legal anyway, so no one can "really" be a slave...it is just what one can call themselves, for fun, for sexual kinks, cuz it makes them feel good, whatever, but no one is "really" a slave. so it follows that those with such beliefs cannot fathom the idea of any "sane" person not retaining some rights within a relationship, of any person not stringing their so called "master" up by the neck if commanded to do something morally or ethically reprehensible.

but speaking from the viewpoint of one in a M/s or "TPE" union...yes, slavery within this lifestyle can be real and true. yes a Master's power can be total, complete, pure. in my relationship, there was a clear understanding upon entering that i would lose all rights, that my body was not mine any longer, that he would own me in every sense of the word. and yes that does mean that even if i were to conceive a child, what would be done with that child (or whether it would even become a child or not), would be entirely up to him. my Master does love me however and does care how i feel about such things, so he would ask my feelings and thoughts on the matter. whether or not my feelings would effect his decision, i don't know. judging from past experience, i would say probably not. He is going to do what he wishes to do. and whether i agree or not is irrelevant, i must accept it. but truth be told, like any madly in love slavegirl, i want my Master happy and fulfilled. i do not want him to want for anything. so if i can see that a certain path will cause him fulfillment, even joy...then naturally i want him to take that path. any fears or apprehensions i may have had disappear with one look at the light in his eyes.

 

[sunfox]

An excellent post, OSG.. very well written and explained.

I agree that TPE must be something that if you asked ten people, you'd get ten different answers. But the common thread I see is that there is an understanding between the two people involved, for a relationship that works for both of them in a fulfilling way. Whether that be as Catalina and Francisco's relationship, or as OSG's and her Master's... it's what works for you as an exchange.

I wish, in a lot of ways, that I could enter into a TPE with my guy.. I think that he would be as intrigued by it as I am, though I'm not positive he'd have the desire for a -total- exchange... and I'm not sure I would either. But our relationship just isn't that kind, and our life doesn't really allow for it. Maybe someday.

 

[the shadow of a boy]

Wow! You actually went and started a TPE ethics thread! I only discovered it just now.

Let me be this first to let everyone down and add a post that fails miserably to uphold the high standards of explication and dialouge achieved thus far: I must point out the grave potential danger that the submissive in an extreme D/s relationship may be led to Gorian Obsessive Absolute Power Exchange Submissive Hostage Identification Tendency...

 

[s'lara]

i dislike editing my posts. i'd begun a post and hit the submit button before i was ready. This topic deserved more thought.


What causes trepidation at engaging in a TPE relationship?

Is it the loss of the right to make life decisions? From a sub perspective, i mean the loss of the right to make decisions regarding children, career, finances, even our health, etc.

Or is it the complete relenquishment of our (subs) well being to another person who is just that ... another person and not a mythical being who will never die, never make the wrong decision and is incapable of abuse? i don't know, i think it is these things and more.

It is somewhat unrealistic to believe two things: a) giving someone the full power to control you will result in an apocalyptic catastrophe where your demise is imminent and ghastly, or b) the Dominant is a wonderful, error-free individual who always has your best interests at heart and will never hurt you (emotionally/mentally) and living life according to TPE is utopia; bliss on a SSC high you never want to come down from ... ever.

You have no guarantees in life (in general) and TPE, in terms of D/s, doesn't suddenly afford you with assurances you didn't have before. It's a grown up choice and not a solution. It is a conscious decision and the last one you will make in terms of selecting the course of your life ... it is claiming the full package of anothers life and directing it with the knowledge that your acts, choices, missteps, and successes are what determines this persons life from now. Yeah, scary.

All in all, you tend to look for the best fit in most things ... defining your TPE relationship is just one more facet of your life where you must tailor it and fine tune it until satisfied. Good luck to those shaping and crafting their TPE in their way.

lara

 

[SubByDesign]

I think I would, if I could, engage in a TPE with my present master.

We have a lot of restrictions placed upon us because of our already chosen roles in life. Which means that tpe or ape will never be an option for us.

I think there are two things that are most important in this type of relationship:
1. Trust. That's a big duh. However, many people trust with no reason of doing so. (Or at least, so it seems.)
2. Realizing where the true power lies. The power, though taken up by the dom, resides in the sub. They give it up. They allow themselves to be controlled. It's a lesson I learned very well when He told me to read the Story of O by Pauline Reage. She does a MUCH better job of explaining it than me.

Who is tired.
and going to bed.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Gorian Obsessive Absolute Power Exchange Submissive Hostage Identification Tendency?

Can someone please explain to me what that is.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

TPE AND SLAVERY

A slave can be used or disposed of at the will of their owner. They perform whatever tasks their owner set before them, and live basically as their owner chooses, either in comfort or in squalor. A slave and the way their life is, is defined by how the owner wants their life together to be, some Masters will want to have a life with their slave which entails a lot of micromanagement, basically the picture that NCShin has painted for us while some only enjoy macro management, and some have a mixture of those two opposing styles.

When I embarked on the journey called TPE I was under the illusion that to be a great master I had to perform a lot of micromanagement, I was confusing real life with scening. Yes when I am in the mood and when I want to have a ‘scene’ (for lack of a better word) I will want to control everything, however if you have a 24/7 relationship it becomes impossible to control every single minute of the day. So I have rules which I expect to be followed and I will control my partner in this way if she is following them. I have standard disciplinary actions for disobedience and for breaking the rules. I expect my partner to be honest enough to tell me when she breaks a rule, I am normally quite lenient and quite reasonable as long as I have been informed and there is a good reason for not following my orders.

I also enjoy a good mind and a good discussion, if there is something I find boring it is a robot, I want to have a relationship in which my partner enriches my life by enriching not only my body but also my mind. The standard brain-dead robot is not the type of slave I am looking for. I do not enjoy disobedience and I do not accept disobedience but that does not mean I can never be wrong, it does not mean that simply because I am the Dominant I have to ignore one of my best resources which is my partner's brain.

I was looking for a specific person, one who would fit my picture of what a slave had to be in my eyes, a partner who would comply with my standards. The only hard limits I want in the relationship are my hard limits, my sexual taste and that of my partner has to be very similar. IMHO to have a successful TPE relationship the people involved in it have to be very compatible and also have a very clear direction from the beginning. Yes it has to be clear that I carry the responsibility for the both of us, yes it has to be clear that when I give an order or command I expect it to be followed and it has to be clear that I expect my partner to be pleasing to me. But it also has to be clear that I want to live together with a human being and not a robot, and humans have their good points and their bad points.

Francisco.

 

[the shadow of a boy]

Gorian Obsessive Absolute Power Exchange Submissive Hostage Identification Tendency?

Can someone please explain to me what that is.

Francisco.

Gorian-Obsessive Absolute Power Exchange Submissive Hostage Identification Tendency.
Sorry Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

2. Realizing where the true power lies. The power, though taken up by the dom, resides in the sub. They give it up. They allow themselves to be controlled. It's a lesson I learned very well when He told me to read the Story of O by Pauline Reage. She does a MUCH better job of explaining it than me.

Can't agree totally with this. I held power to an extent before committing, but so did he in equal amount because without his desire to take control of me no amount of my giving it would have changed that. Once I gave myself in TPE commitment, my power was passed to him and remains completely in his control. I have surrendered all my rights, I can no longer weigh my options and reacte independently on them, nor can I entertain ideas of leaving and finding another if I become dissatisfied in any sense. My existence is totally and completely in his power and though I may raise concerns in a respectful manner, his decision is final.

Catalina