Total Insanity

[R. Richard]

I would like to get comments from those of you from the UK. Some ass hole was recruiting young men to kill British troops. The ass hole was given FOUR LIFE SENTENCES, after a public trial. Now it seems that he must serve A MINIMUM OF NINE YEARS. If the information, from the UK newspaper the Sun, is correct, the inmates have taken over the asylum. Run for your lives. After you get to a point of some safety, please explain to me how four lifetime sentences equals nine years. TIA.

P.S. What would a guy have to do to get 10 years? TIA.

Life sentence for terrorist recruiter[size]

A FORMER Taliban fighter who recruited extremist Muslims to kill British troops in Afghanistan was caged for life yesterday.

Ruthless Munir Farooqi, 54, was at the centre of a plot to get vulnerable young men to "fight, kill and die" in a jihad, a court heard.

But Farooqi and two others were nabbed when two undercover anti-terrorism cops infiltrated his group, Manchester Crown Court was told.

Farooqi, of Longsight, Manchester, was given four life sentences and told he must serve a minimum of nine years.

He was convicted of preparing for acts of terrorism, soliciting to murder and dissemination of terrorist publications. Mr Justice Richard Henriques said: "You are a very dangerous man."

Former British Army recruit Matthew Newton, 29, and petty crook Israr Malik, 23, both of Manchester, were convicted of terror-related offences.

Newton was jailed for six years and Malik got an indeterminate sentence.

 

[TE999]

I would like to get comments from those of you from the UK. Some ass hole was recruiting young men to kill British troops. The ass hole was given FOUR LIFE SENTENCES, after a public trial. Now it seems that he must serve A MINIMUM OF NINE YEARS. If the information, from the UK newspaper the Sun, is correct, the inmates have taken over the asylum. Run for your lives. After you get to a point of some safety, please explain to me how four lifetime sentences equals nine years. TIA.

P.S. What would a guy have to do to get 10 years? TIA.

Life sentence for terrorist recruiter

A FORMER Taliban fighter who recruited extremist Muslims to kill British troops in Afghanistan was caged for life yesterday.

Ruthless Munir Farooqi, 54, was at the centre of a plot to get vulnerable young men to "fight, kill and die" in a jihad, a court heard.

But Farooqi and two others were nabbed when two undercover anti-terrorism cops infiltrated his group, Manchester Crown Court was told.

Farooqi, of Longsight, Manchester, was given four life sentences and told he must serve a minimum of nine years.

He was convicted of preparing for acts of terrorism, soliciting to murder and dissemination of terrorist publications. Mr Justice Richard Henriques said: "You are a very dangerous man."

Former British Army recruit Matthew Newton, 29, and petty crook Israr Malik, 23, both of Manchester, were convicted of terror-related offences.

Newton was jailed for six years and Malik got an indeterminate sentence.

I'm guessin' the nine year minimum is some quirk in UK law. IMO Europe and the UK have been getting progressively softer on crime over the years (including their ridiculous anti-gun laws) so this probable slap on the wrist comes as no big surprise.

 

[Handley_Page]

Oh dear. So many things to react to.

1. "The Sun" is not a particularly reliable newspaper; I am told it does a decent job with sports, particularly Football (that's soccer to you in the USA), but tends to skew the news for titillation rather than accurate reportage.

2. There's a pretty decent chance that this low-life will be deported, provided we've done something practical about the "Human Rights" problems about which a great many UK citizens have strong feelings.
There are also very strong views about the sentences meted out to terrorists and their allies. I get the impression that Government is listening.

3. There's also a good chance that one or two charges are left on the books. If this low-life bandit ever steps out of line after his release, they'll have him !

4. It is my understanding that jail terms in the USA can be served consecutively.
In the UK it's usually concurrently, so four life sentences might just as well be one ! (no - we don't like it either).

 

[BONNIEBREA]

While the crimes (conspiracy to commit murder and organize terroristic plots) are certainly ones that need to be punished, these individuals did not commit murder. The sentences seem appropriate to the crimes.

In the US we have parole rules also. Prisoners are eligible for parole after a time much shorter than their sentence. They seldom get out at that point, and typically spend most of their sentence in prison (and that is true both in the US and European nations). (Just what this persons actual 'sentence' was - that is, four life terms served concurrently for a total of one life sentence, or served consecutively for a total of four actual life sentences - is not clear from the article).

If you're at all open to learning then I can provide some factual information for you.

As much as people like to go on about 'run for the hills' because European nations are 'soft on crime,' those nations of Europe have far lower rates of violent crime than the US (and in the US the states that have capital punishment laws and use them the most have far higher rates of violent crime than states that don't have capital punishment or use it infrequently).

It's a common mantra of the gun nut lobby that European nations are 'anti-gun.' What they are is 'pro-responsible gun ownership.' People in Europe own guns and use them for defense, hunting, sport shooting and the like. What European countries require, though, is a system to make sure guns are in the hands of responsible and law-abiding people and that those guns are handled responsibly. In the US the combination of the republican party, conservatives, and groups like the NRA is working night and day to make sure as many guns and as much ammunition as possible gets into the hands of criminals, crazies, and children.

It bears pointing out that (and my understanding is that this person was trying to recruit people to attack British military bases) no military bases have been attacked in Great Britain while in the US there has been at least one attack (at Fort Hood) where many innocent people died (send your thank you card to the republican party and the NRA).

European nations' responsible gun laws vs the US's criminally lax ones also explain why gun massacres with multiple deaths of innocent people are weekly occurrances in the US, while they are something that happens in any given European nation once in a generation.

It sounds to me as if it is in the US where people need to run for the hills for safety from the deadly hazards caused by the combination of absurdly lax gun laws and the absurd delusion that capital punishment laws keep anyone safe.

Hope the information is helpful. (Isn't your post more appropriate for the General Board rather than AH?)

 

[Boxlicker101]

Sometimes in the US, actual time served is far too little for the crime committed. For instance, Phillip Gariddo was sentenced to fifty years for an unusually nasty rape, which was a reasonable sentence. However, he got out on parole in less than ten years, and went back to his own ways. Ane, his parole was lax to the point of being non-existent.

At the same time, people are getting sentenced to extremely long sentences for penny-ante sales or possessions of drugs. I don't know who it was who said "The law is an ass" but he was right.

In the case of this recruiter, he might stay in prison for the rest of his life. Once other convicts find out what he did, or tried to do, that sentence will, hopefully, end within a few months.

 

[R. Richard]

It bears pointing out that (and my understanding is that this person was trying to recruit people to attack British military bases) no military bases have been attacked in Great Britain while in the US there has been at least one attack (at Fort Hood) where many innocent people died (send your thank you card to the republican party and the NRA).

The article states that the attacks were to be in Afghanistan.

The Fort Hood attack was by a whako army officer, who should have been in the brig for any number of previous offenses. However, he was too 'politically sensitive' to throw in the brig, until he started killing people. He was an army officer and could legally obtain a firearm, without any conection to a political party and/or the NRA.

European nations' responsible gun laws vs the US's criminally lax ones also explain why gun massacres with multiple deaths of innocent people are weekly occurrances in the US, while they are something that happens in any given European nation once in a generation.

It sounds to me as if it is in the US where people need to run for the hills for safety from the deadly hazards caused by the combination of absurdly lax gun laws and the absurd delusion that capital punishment laws keep anyone safe.

Hope the information is helpful. (Isn't your post more appropriate for the General Board rather than AH?)

Right now, we have US citizens being killed by guns illegally furnished to Mexcans by the US GOVERNMENT.

Perhaps you could give me an example of a criminal who was tried and executed and then actively caused harm to a victim.

One reason why we have gun deaths of multiple innocent people in the US, is because of gang violence. Many of the gangs have illgal aliens as members. The scumbags are too busy pimping for they mama to arrest illegal aliens.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Originally Posted by BONNIEBREA
It bears pointing out that (and my understanding is that this person was trying to recruit people to attack British military bases) no military bases have been attacked in Great Britain while in the US there has been at least one attack (at Fort Hood) where many innocent people died (send your thank you card to the republican party and the NRA).

RR: The article states that the attacks were to be in Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by BONNIEBREA
European nations' responsible gun laws vs the US's criminally lax ones also explain why gun massacres with multiple deaths of innocent people are weekly occurrances in the US, while they are something that happens in any given European nation once in a generation.

It sounds to me as if it is in the US where people need to run for the hills for safety from the deadly hazards caused by the combination of absurdly lax gun laws and the absurd delusion that capital punishment laws keep anyone safe.

Hope the information is helpful. (Isn't your post more appropriate for the General Board rather than AH?)

RR: Right now, we have US citizens being killed by guns illegally furnished to Mexcans by the US GOVERNMENT.

Perhaps you could give me an example of a criminal who was tried and executed and then actively caused harm to a victim.

One reason why we have gun deaths of multiple innocent people in the US, is because of gang violence. Many of the gangs have illgal aliens as members. The scumbags are too busy pimping for they mama to arrest illegal aliens.

The Army officer at Fort Hood was a medical officer, so he would not have been authorized to carry a weapon. However, he would have been authorized to buy one.

I don't know if the guns were furnished to criminals by the ATF or not. The sale of them to criminals was authorized, but I think they came from ordinary gun dealer stocks. When the dealers called Washington to ask about the suspicious purchases, Obama or a member of his staff said to go ahead and make the sales.

I believe we have been over this ground before, and there was a link comparing murders in the US to murders in Europe. Per capita, Europe is way ahead, although the US probably leads in deaths by shooting. Of course, many such deaths are not murders.

I have never heard of anybody who has been put to death by hanging, etc. committing any crime again, not even jaywalking.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

The Fort Hood attack was by a whako army officer, who should have been in the brig for any number of previous offenses. However, he was too 'politically sensitive' to throw in the brig, until he started killing people. He was an army officer and could legally obtain a firearm, without any conection to a political party and/or the NRA.


Right now, we have US citizens being killed by guns illegally furnished to Mexcans by the US GOVERNMENT.

Perhaps you could give me an example of a criminal who was tried and executed and then actively caused harm to a victim.

One reason why we have gun deaths of multiple innocent people in the US, is because of gang violence. Many of the gangs have illgal aliens as members. The scumbags are too busy pimping for they mama to arrest illegal aliens.

Major Hasan had demonstrated mental instability in the past. The Army should have had his name included on a list of individuals ineligible to buy firearms (if such a list existed - the republicans and the NRA have worked hard to keep the violently mentally unstable off such lists)

Of course this is simply nonsense. (Let me guess - you got this from Rush or Glenn). What is happening: because US gun purchase standards are so lax Mexican drug cartel members can come to the States drop a paper bag full of cash on a gun store counter and drive off with a trunk load of automatic weapons and ammunition. Those weapons are then used to kill both Mexicans and Americans. The drug cartels can't get that sort of fire power in Mexico, only in the US.

This is also simply nonsense, but is illustrative. There is a problem with youth gang violence in this country, but there are also youth gangs in European countries. Here those gangs have easy access to firearms and so have the capacity to kill lots of people. In European nations, where responsible ownership and screening laws exist, you have the gangs but largely without the deadly violence. You can read almost every day of the week about deadly gang drive-by shootings or other murders in US cities. You never read about them in European cities. And again - workplace and school massacres are frequent and almost unique to the US, and almost unheard of in Europe.

And perhaps you could give an example of a person wrongly executed who has been brought back to life. New York and Illinois have the most stringent standards for post-conviction review of capital crime trial outcomes. As a result they far and away lead the nation in the release of wrongly-convicted prisoners from their death rows. The idea that other states (including states that use the death penalty far more than New York and Illinois) don't have similar rates of people wrongly convicted (and executed) for capital offenses is simply delusional. And again, European countries with no death penalties have far lower rates of violent crime than does the US with all its death penalties.

As Stephan Colbert might say - "Check and mate, Sir." )

Funny things about facts: they're so factual.

 

[R. Richard]

Bonniebrea:
You have hijacked my thread. However, I feel that to let your 'facts' stand would be a disservice.

Search string: gang shootings UK.
TheGuardian/The Observer
The gang shootings that put police with machine guns on London's streets

(As for the violent US street gangs, I consider myself an expert on the subject. Whi' Boy walked the night streets and alleyways of the South Central. He found effective and final ways to deal with the gangs, the muggings and the robberies. The police we're not even willing to try said effective methods. Nor were the police willing to search the nighttime alleyways for Whi' Boy. They be too busy pimping for they mama.)

Search string: fast and furious us government

The Christian Science Monitor

How Mexican killers got US guns from 'Fast and Furious' operation
US officials thought they would catch Mexican criminals in a bold gun-running sting called 'Fast and Furious.' Instead, they inadvertently armed drug cartels as the operation spiraled out of control, a congressional report finds.

Search string: chaplain shoot fort hood wiki

Hasan had come to the attention of federal authorities at least six months before the attacks, because of internet postings he appeared to have made discussing suicide bombings and other threats, though authorities did not at the time definitively tie the postings to him. The postings, made in the name "NidalHasan", likened a suicide bomber to a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his colleagues, and sacrifices his life for a "more noble cause." No official investigation was opened.
ABC News reported that officials were aware that Hasan had attempted to contact Al Qaida, and that Hasan had "more unexplained connections to people being tracked by the FBI" than just Anwar al-Awlaki.

As to the request for people brought back to life after being sentenced and put to death, following a fair, open, public trail, I do have an answer. You see, I never passed high school English. However, I was assured that what I viewed as 'drug dream fantasies' about the dead walking and talking were indeed real and that I could do the same thing, if I would only devote myself to the study of US high school English. If you wish the 'facts,' you will have to talk to one of your local high school English teachers. (Surely, you do support your public school system.)

 

[BONNIEBREA]

I have no idea how one would go about responding to your post RR. It's virtually incoherent.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Bonniebrea:
You have hijacked my thread. However, I feel that to let your 'facts' stand would be a disservice.

Search string: gang shootings UK.
TheGuardian/The Observer
The gang shootings that put police with machine guns on London's streets

(As for the violent US street gangs, I consider myself an expert on the subject. Whi' Boy walked the night streets and alleyways of the South Central. He found effective and final ways to deal with the gangs, the muggings and the robberies. The police we're not even willing to try said effective methods. Nor were the police willing to search the nighttime alleyways for Whi' Boy. They be too busy pimping for they mama.)

Search string: fast and furious us government

The Christian Science Monitor

How Mexican killers got US guns from 'Fast and Furious' operation
US officials thought they would catch Mexican criminals in a bold gun-running sting called 'Fast and Furious.' Instead, they inadvertently armed drug cartels as the operation spiraled out of control, a congressional report finds.

Search string: chaplain shoot fort hood wiki

Hasan had come to the attention of federal authorities at least six months before the attacks, because of internet postings he appeared to have made discussing suicide bombings and other threats, though authorities did not at the time definitively tie the postings to him. The postings, made in the name "NidalHasan", likened a suicide bomber to a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his colleagues, and sacrifices his life for a "more noble cause." No official investigation was opened.
ABC News reported that officials were aware that Hasan had attempted to contact Al Qaida, and that Hasan had "more unexplained connections to people being tracked by the FBI" than just Anwar al-Awlaki.

As to the request for people brought back to life after being sentenced and put to death, following a fair, open, public trail, I do have an answer. You see, I never passed high school English. However, I was assured that what I viewed as 'drug dream fantasies' about the dead walking and talking were indeed real and that I could do the same thing, if I would only devote myself to the study of US high school English. If you wish the 'facts,' you will have to talk to one of your local high school English teachers. (Surely, you do support your public school system.)

You do have a couple of factual errors, but nothing important. Hasan was a psychiatrist, not a chaplin. The guns were not provided by The Big O's administration, but the sales of them were facilitated by his appointees in the DOJ. The case is not well known, because most of the news media do not like to say negative things about the current president.

 

[Handley_Page]

I'm guessin' the nine year minimum is some quirk in UK law. IMO Europe and the UK have been getting progressively softer on crime over the years (including their ridiculous anti-gun laws) so this probable slap on the wrist comes as no big surprise.

Well, in the UK, there's a load of confusion about the EU's Human Rights legislation which seems to have gone a lot further than was originally invisaged.

It's a common mantra of the gun nut lobby that European nations are 'anti-gun.' What they are is 'pro-responsible gun ownership.' People in Europe own guns and use them for defense, hunting, sport shooting and the like. What European countries require, though, is a system to make sure guns are in the hands of responsible and law-abiding people and that those guns are handled responsibly.
In the US the combination of the republican party, conservatives, and groups like the NRA is working night and day to make sure as many guns and as much ammunition as possible gets into the hands of criminals, crazies, and children.

Hope the information is helpful.

And here we hit a problem. The UK government had been seeking to restrict private gun ownership for years. Then we had two idiots who managed to hand the thing to them on a plate. The result was no pistols in private hands - at all. [this was a bit of a blow to loads of law-abiding pistol owners and not a few champion shots, as well as me].
Personally, I think all nations should be like the Swiss; A few days training per year and keep your gun at home.
Then everyone is trained to be safe.

 

[Handley_Page]

And perhaps you could give an example of a person wrongly executed who has been brought back to life. New York and Illinois have the most stringent standards for post-conviction review of capital crime trial outcomes.

Funny things about facts: they're so factual.

Please PM me with details of how they do their post-conviction trial review. I'm very interested.

 

[R. Richard]

And here we hit a problem. The UK government had been seeking to restrict private gun ownership for years. Then we had two idiots who managed to hand the thing to them on a plate. The result was no pistols in private hands - at all. [this was a bit of a blow to loads of law-abiding pistol owners and not a few champion shots, as well as me].
Personally, I think all nations should be like the Swiss; A few days training per year and keep your gun at home.
Then everyone is trained to be safe.

I dated a Swiss girl some time back. The Swiss don't really worry about the Swiss breaking laws, in general. The girl would go to visit her boyfriend, during the mandatory yearly Swiss Army training. She said that, since there were no small children in the house, she would come in and see a couple of assault rifles stashed in the umbrella stand, as her boyfriend and his brother took French leave to get a bit of mama's home cooking.

I might also point out that New York City has perhaps the strictest gun laws in the USA. It's against the law for a private citizen to even have a firearm in his/her possession, without a gun permit. It wasn't all that unusual for a NYC resident to shoot an intruder and then get arrested, not for shooting the intruder, but for having an illegal firearm. There are a lot of driveby shootings in NYC. Give me $100 and transport me to the area where the Jackie Robinson dumps into surface streets and I'll buy a fully loaded handgun within an hour. Give me $1,000 and I'll buy an AK-47, with a full 30 shot magazine. (Don't try this yourself, this is DDP territory.)

 

[Boxlicker101]

I dated a Swiss girl some time back. The Swiss don't really worry about the Swiss breaking laws, in general. The girl would go to visit her boyfriend, during the mandatory yearly Swiss Army training. She said that, since there were no small children in the house, she would come in and see a couple of assault rifles stashed in the umbrella stand, as her boyfriend and his brother took French leave to get a bit of mama's home cooking.

I might also point out that New York City has perhaps the strictest gun laws in the USA. It's against the law for a private citizen to even have a firearm in his/her possession, without a gun permit. It wasn't all that unusual for a NYC resident to shoot an intruder and then get arrested, not for shooting the intruder, but for having an illegal firearm. There are a lot of driveby shootings in NYC. Give me $100 and transport me to the area where the Jackie Robinson dumps into surface streets and I'll buy a fully loaded handgun within an hour. Give me $1,000 and I'll buy an AK-47, with a full 30 shot magazine. (Don't try this yourself, this is DDP territory.)

Of course, this is the problem with restrictive gun laws, which are probably unconstitutional, that criminals ignore the law, and most honest citizens obey it.

Do you remember Bernie Goetz?

 

[estragon]

"And again - workplace and school massacres are frequent and almost unique to the US, and almost unheard of in Europe."

Dunblane, Scotland. Joekela, Finland. Kauhajoki, Finland.

 

[Boxlicker101]

nd perhaps you could give an example of a person wrongly executed who has been brought back to life. New York and Illinois have the most stringent standards for post-conviction review of capital crime trial outcomes. As a result they far and away lead the nation in the release of wrongly-convicted prisoners from their death rows. The idea that other states (including states that use the death penalty far more than New York and Illinois) don't have similar rates of people wrongly convicted (and executed) for capital offenses is simply delusional. And again, European countries with no death penalties have far lower rates of violent crime than does the US with all its death penalties.

As Stephan Colbert might say - "Check and mate, Sir." )

Funny things about facts: they're so factual.

Can you name one innocent person in the US who has been put to death by the legally constituted asuthorities? I don't mean an innocent person who was lynched; I mean a person who was convicted, sent to Death Row and killed by the normal method of execution. I'm not saying there are none; I'm really asking you to name one.

And, please don't say something like: "Oh, there's too many to name just one." I would take that as an admission that you don't know of any.

 

[Handley_Page]

If we assume that the 'evidence' was sufficient, look at
Herrera v Collins
for the execution of an 'innocent' man.
To my mind it would have been enough to warrant a re-trial, but I know nothing of the US Legal system.

 

[R. Richard]

If the Wiki article is accurate, Herrera confessed to a murder. Then, later Herrara's lawyer was told that Herrera's dead brother did the murder. If Herrera didn't do the murder, why did he confess?

 

[Boxlicker101]

If the Wiki article is accurate, Herrera confessed to a murder. Then, later Herrara's lawyer was told that Herrera's dead brother did the murder. If Herrera didn't do the murder, why did he confess?

In fact, he was convicted of two murders of Texas police officers on the same night. He pled guilty on one and the evidence against him convicted him on the other. I'm not sure why he was only sentenced to death for one of them.

He was identified by one of the victims before that man died, as well as the victim's partner, as well as a lot of circumstantial evidence. Later, he protested he was innocent, but that was not enough to offset the evidence at his trial.

As for the alleged statements by his brother, that is strictly hearsay, and looks like a man just trying to protect his brother when it does no harm to himself.

ETA: If this had been an affadavit by his brother saying he had committed both murders, that might have been grounds for a new trial, but hearsay evidence is only accepted in court in very limited circumstances.