top it!

[ammre]

Yeah you'd think everyone would know this....
I searched the library thread and there's 2 links for topping but i still couldn't figureout exactly what it is...

What is topping? What is topping fomr the bottom? What are all the other terms immediatelly associated with that idea? (in case there's some i'm missing)

I never realized i DIDN"T know what thsi meant till i heard a sub say that she ha da bad habit of "topping from the bottom" which made me highly confused and made me wonder what it really meant.

Enlighten me please!

 

[catalina_francisco]

The short answer is it means the sub in question is really running the show so to speak, not submitting, sometimes openly, sometimes through manipulation....and not usually appreciated or accepted by the Dominant.


C

 

[Quint]

It's something that, unfortunately, is best described by examples rather than one definition. Lemme give it a shot.

I am on the phone with T and I'm feeling awfully antsy. He asks me, quite naturally, to do something for him and I pout and refuse because I want him to give me more attention by reacting forcefully. I'm, in essence, trying to make him make me do it. That's topping from the bottom.

A more obvious example: I really want T to flog me but he's not interested. I wheedle and plea despite being repeatedly told not to. That's topping and it's also being bratty, which is often associated/confused with topping.

Pretty much any time the submissive tries to take control of the dominant's actions can be called topping. Sometimes it may be hard to avoid. My first partner was not naturally dominant and so I had to lead him quite a bit into activities because he didn't want to go there on his own. It makes me very frustrated and disinterested to get my way like that; it's not a satisfying submission if I can so easily get what I want OVER the dominant's wishes. S'why I'm not the dominant. Some dominants tolerate or encourage it for various reasons but thankfully for me, T is not one of them.

Does that help, ammre?

 

[serijules]

I personally feel that the phrase 'topping from the bottom' is used too often in a negative way....it is not always a negative thing in my opinion. I read or hear comments like "if my sub was bratty or my sub didn't immediately obey my every whim I would show them the door." Makes me wonder where simply being human fits into the scope of things. :/

Anyhow, topping from the bottom can be used to describe many situations; not all of them are negative, and most of them have another, better suited word for them. This phrase kind of blankets a lot of situations. (in my own opinion, mind you)

If a sub is acting snotty, demanding, disrespectful, or any other number of things to get her dominant to give him/her attention or to do things the way they would rather have them done....that can be considered topping from the bottom. Example: Sub is getting paddled and makes rude or bratty comments to Dom to get them to paddle her harder, rather than simply asking for more/longer/harder scene.

I prefer to call this manipulative. Sometimes it can just plain be called being a brat and be all in good fun. Sometimes not.

Another example...A dom and a sub are playing sexually, sub is having a hard time acheiving orgasm with the new toys they are using, so moves her dom's fingers to a better place for her, or verbally coaxes him to give her the pace of sensation she wants. Some would consider this topping from the bottom because it could be seen as the sub telling the dom what to do and how to do what she wants.

I call this communicating needs and desires.

Yet another example. Dom and sub are at a play party or club, and another dom is looking for someone to tie up and cane. Dom offers his sub to other dom to be caned, and he accepts. Sub is having issues with being nude in public, or getting tied/caned, has had enough for the evening, or just generally does not feel right about playing with this particular person even though her Dom obviously trusts him. She refuses, and tells her Dom she is not comfortable with the situation. Some might say she was topping from the bottom by disobeying a direct order and putting her desires before her doms wishes. (I've been in this situation and was accused of such)

I call this respecting limits.

Recently before a play party, I spent much time talking with someone I intended to play with about what I liked, what my limits were, what I wanted to do, what I didn't want to do, etc. After the actual playtime, apparently she wasn't comfortable with my lack of communication DURING the scene, something I absolutly hate to do when I know that plenty of communication has taken place beforehand. I prefer to trust them to respect the limits we talked about, trust that I will safeword if needed, and direct the scene in a way that pleases them rather than focus so heavily on what I want. I feel much more submissive this way and enjoy myself much more. She wanted more feedback from me through the whole thing...which I felt I had already given ahead of time.

To give her the constant feedback she apparently expected of me during the scene, rather than before and after, I would have felt like I was topping from the bottom, although I do understand her perspective too.

I dunno, I'm just thinking out loud here, but almost every time I've heard the phrase Topping from the bottom, I disagree with the situation or example and think there are better words to go with the situation. Topping from the bottom can be negative, it can be positive, it can be something neither partner will think anything of nor will it matter to them but will be completely unacceptable to the next. I think it is a phrase that is unique to each person or couple depending on their perception of things. I do many things that people have labled as topping from the bottom, but to my partner and I, it was anything but.

 

[Pure]

As to 'top' as such, since the 'from the bottom' has been answered.

Words like 'top' and 'dom' (nouns) have several senses and some people use them almost interchangeably. Same for the verbs 'top' and 'dominate'.

However, 'top' is often used to designate the person running/directing a scene--bdsm episode (or what s/he does).
The point being that this leaves open the overall set-up, if any.
For instance a mostly sub could 'top' for an evening or a scene.

(Note that the one 'running' a scene is not necessarily the most obvious and active. If I set up a scene where you whip me for 20 mins, then during that time I will appear to be 'passive' or even 'submissive.' Yet the scene is going as I've directed, and if I've said 20 mins, that's when it ends.)

Second, the meaning is the person active or 'top' in a scene/episode. Think of missionary style: the person atop, is, in common terms, doing the fucking, is the fucker, rather than the fuckee.

By extension, then, the person who does a lot of such episodes is a 'top', just as a man who does a lot of fishing is a fisherman.

Both of these uses leave open the question of general disposition: I.e., some people will say they 'top' but they don't call themselves dom/mes. They may say "I'm neither essentially dom or sub; it all depends." Some tops, of course, would be extremely assertive and forceful, but decline the label 'dom/me'.

Perhaps this will help. There are many glossaries on the 'net. Use google and bdsm dictionary, for example.

Best,
J.

 

[ammre]

Thank you all very much for your explanations.. i now understand some things i dind't before

 

[Quint]

serijules, I agree completely and withdraw all contradictory parts of my post. I just didn't think it out nearly as well as you did. Terrific examples.

 

[D's mariposa]

One more case when topping from the bottome is appropriate and non negative.

When a novice top, or an experienced top learning a new technique is working with an expereinced bottom. In this case, the bottom will be guiding the top. I know some people don't see this as topping from the bottom, but some of us do.

 

[serijules]

One more case when topping from the bottome is appropriate and non negative.

When a novice top, or an experienced top learning a new technique is working with an expereinced bottom. In this case, the bottom will be guiding the top. I know some people don't see this as topping from the bottom, but some of us do.

Excellent example!

 

[Chicklet]

topping from the bottom...i think of it as manipulation...you're manipulating your dom, or your friend, or anyone into doing what you want them to do through backhanded attempts at making them angry or frustrated or feeling guilty. it happens all the time in real life all around you...i'm guilty of manipulation.

 

[Etoile]

I have a question about topping from the bottom.

Daddy lives in another city. Daddy is not very good at showing affection. I send e-mails just about daily, and occasionally hear something back. But I long for more contact. I know Daddy loves me, and part of me feels like asking for more is topping from the bottom - I know in my head that I am loved, so I feel like I should be content with that and just wait until we're together to get the rest of my attention. Then again, long distance relationships are known to take effort from both parties to maintain, so I feel like I'm kind of justified in asking for that. I sent a note yesterday that said "I miss you" and got back the response "I miss you too, Poodle" (Daddy's nickname for me), and that just lit me up with delight. Is it okay for me to ask for Daddy to call sometimes, or just to reach out to me? Or is that topping from the bottom? Should I be patient and wait for what Daddy will give me?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have a question about topping from the bottom.

Daddy lives in another city. Daddy is not very good at showing affection. I send e-mails just about daily, and occasionally hear something back. But I long for more contact. I know Daddy loves me, and part of me feels like asking for more is topping from the bottom - I know in my head that I am loved, so I feel like I should be content with that and just wait until we're together to get the rest of my attention. Then again, long distance relationships are known to take effort from both parties to maintain, so I feel like I'm kind of justified in asking for that. I sent a note yesterday that said "I miss you" and got back the response "I miss you too, Poodle" (Daddy's nickname for me), and that just lit me up with delight. Is it okay for me to ask for Daddy to call sometimes, or just to reach out to me? Or is that topping from the bottom? Should I be patient and wait for what Daddy will give me?

You are right, ldr do need work from both, even in the vanilla world. How can a D expect to hold a sub if they do not make them feel loved and valued in the ways which the submissive relates to. Is the responsibility of both to communicate about any difficulties or concerns, and the D to know the sub well enough to know when they need to give that extra attention etc. I don't see communication of needs in any way as topping from the bottom. After all, we are all human and have set needs which if not met lead to unhappiness and possible loss of self esteem/image, so why do it?

Maybe it is just a lack of Daddy not relating to your needs and needing you to communicate this to her. Some people need to be showered in gifts, others a quick email or ecard unexpectedly, while others can survive and thrive on the anticipation of the next time together. No matter what the need, it is a need that is valid and not imagined or manipulative. If Daddy does not relate to your need for that contact and special word, it may never enter her head to do it.

Rediscovered a good sight I had forgotten about last night which has lots of good common sense guidance and discussion on various aspects of D/s. Thought you might like it also.

http://submissive1.homestead.com/index.html

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

http://www.submissiveloving.com/subcreed.html

The Submissives Rights

i have the right to set limits, and expect them to be respected.
i have the right to trust, providing I have earned it.
i have the right to expect You to believe I am an intelligent, caring and loyal person.
i have the right to ask for Your attention,without having to misbehave to get it.
i have the right to expect You to administer Your punishment on me with care and caution.
i have the right to question your motives,should You deny my requests, as long as I do so with the proper respect.
i have the right to speak up if I feel O/our relationship is not giving me what I need.
i have the right to tell You what I need in a respectful manner.
i have the right to expect You to understand my reasons for doing so, and the right to expect You to listen with an open mind and heart.
i have the right to walk away from our relationship if W/we cannot come to a common ground on these issues.
i have the right to expect tenderness, love and understanding after a scene is completed, should it be what I desire.
i have the right to ask You for that tenderness if I've had a bad day,or if I just feel the need for closeness, I understand that there will be times when You and I will disagree about this ~when You will want a scene and I will not.
i have the right to voice my opinion, and expect You to listen to and consider my reasonings, I expect You to have final word, but i expect You to wholeheartedly consider my feelings,whatever they may happen to be.
i have the right to expect You to understand that deep trust often breeds love, and i expect You not to repel me if i tell You that i love You. For my Master i will love You, should O/our relationship move ahead, should O/our trust continue to grow.
i have the right to expect You to tell me, at any point, if You do not feel You can return those feelings, so that i may decide what i want and need,For it is Your pleasure that adds to my own, and makes it real, And mine, that adds to Yours!

The Slaves Prayer....

Allow me the strength to answer questions I can't fanthom...
Allow me the spirit to know his needs
Allow me the kindness to choke back retorts
Allow me the serenity to serve Him in peace..
Allow me the love to show Him in peace...
Allow me the tenderness to comfort Him...
Allow me the light to show us the way...
Allow me the wisdom to be an asset to Him...
Let me be able to show Him each day my love by my service to Him...
Let me open myself up to completely belong to him...
Let my eyes show Him each day my love by my service to Him...
Let me open myself up to completely belong to him...
Let my eyes show Him the same respect, rather I sit at his side, or kneel at his feet...
Let me accept my punishment with the grace of a woman...
Let me learn to please Him, beyond myself...
Grant me the power to give myself to Him completely...
Give me the strength to please us both...
Permitt me to love myself, in loving Him..
Allow me the peace of serving Him.
For it is my greatest wish, my highest power to make his life complete, as he makes mine.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I just think of a little tee top as someone who prefers the little dee dominant, aggressive role in sex. Without all this^^^ stuff.

 

[Netzach]

Or some of it.

or some of it but not all the time.

Or some of it with some people and not other people.

 

[Pure]

Etoile,

//I sent a note yesterday that said "I miss you" and got back the response "I miss you too, Poodle" (Daddy's nickname for me), and that just lit me up with delight. Is it okay for me to ask for Daddy to call sometimes, or just to reach out to me? Or is that topping from the bottom? Should I be patient and wait for what Daddy will give me?//

This is an interesting question. First, I think that the phrase 'topping from the bottom' should be used only descriptively. It means an alleged sub is exercising predominant control. It is not a sin, or a crime. The BDSM purists--nice term--do not come out of the woodwork and chastize you with branches, esp. since you might like that.

Second, a statement or piece of information is not necessarily a request, though some folks do this sort of thing: "I'm thirsty" means the partner is to go get a glass of water for the speaker.

"I miss you" is a sincere and informative statement. It is no different from saying, during a whipping "My pussy hurts."

If you're using those statements to direct the alleged dom, that is to some degree topping. It's not reprehensible, but, if continued represents a shift in power. Maybe to a more 'shared' arrangement in certain areas. Again, while we may theoretically describe 'dominance' in all areas, this is not the 'purest' and best, it's simply an extreme. There is in fact, nothing _wrong_ with an arrangement when one 70% dominates the other, or dominates in areas A,B,C but not X and Y.

The conclusion is much like for any relationship. The stating of needs ideally leads to response much of the time, without manipulations and covert requests. If it doesn't, then the partner is ignoring those statements, and one has to decide if the need satisfaction is a 'deal breaker' or not.

I don't agree with the 'rights' approach of Catalina and Francisco (can't tell which), so I thought I'd give my own analysis of the situation. Roughly speaking, leaving aside agreements**, the two in a relationship don't, imo have any rights at all vis a vis each other. A may or may not get 'respect' , meeting of needs, etc. from B the partner. That is just how it is. If it's very important to A to get respect, then A had better move on, and not sit reflecting sadly upon his or her 'rights.'

Best,
J.



**and what flows from legal duties and prohibitions. (e.g.., it being against the law for your partner to murder you, you have a right to live.)

 

[Pure]

Hi RR,

[from submissives rights statement posted by CF]
// i have the right to expect You to believe I am an intelligent, caring and loyal person. //

Now there's something we'd really like to enforce on our partners.
Esp. if one is not one or more of those things!!

 

[Netzach]

Etoile--

if your relationship was Master/Slave as I see it anyhow, I'd tell you like it or lump it. I know that sounds harsh, but that's how I see it and the logic I apply if/when I have a slave.

This is absolutely not how I feel about Daddy/boy or Daddy/girl. I expect fully for a boy or a girl to seek out my affection or attention just like a boy or girl might whether there's any ageplay thing there or not. It's a more autonomous and fluid thing, I think there's more latitude for self-expression (I *don't* expect a boy or a girl to be unfailingly head down respectful yes Ma'am all the time, which I *do* expect from a slave and will train towards)

I do think that a boy or girl who goes to sweet, creative, seductive affectionate means (ie: I miss you) is not topping from the bottom. One who goes whining all the time (You never pay enough attention to me, dammit!) might be said to be, if the Top is antagonized but just gives in.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hi RR,

[from submissives rights statement posted by CF]
// i have the right to expect You to believe I am an intelligent, caring and loyal person. //

Now there's something we'd really like to enforce on our partners.
Esp. if one is not one or more of those things!!

Would be good if you could huh? lol. The realit y is if Master did not think I already had these qualities he would have assigned me to the wastebasket from day one and we never would have met....same goes for me with him.

C

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't agree with the 'rights' approach of Catalina and Francisco (can't tell which), so I thought I'd give my own analysis of the situation. Roughly speaking, leaving aside agreements**, the two in a relationship don't, imo have any rights at all vis a vis each other. A may or may not get 'respect' , meeting of needs, etc. from B the partner. That is just how it is. If it's very important to A to get respect, then A had better move on, and not sit reflecting sadly upon his or her 'rights.'

The rights statement was from the mentioned website and is not our Bill Of Rights as we are Master/slave. I do not see Rights Of Submissives as applying to myself as I am slave, but I do think they are a good guide for submissives who may not be sure what they should and should not exect.

C

 

[Etoile]

Thanks to Pure, Netzach, et al for the comments. I guess my biggest worry is that I'm begging for too much attention, but I have yet to get any anyway. (Sometimes I think Daddy is deliberately withholding.)

 

[Peter2002]

Perhaps the final word

Begging or asking for attention is normal. And it's just as normal for Dads sometimes to be reserved.

I think topping from the bottom can be -- but isn't always -- a romantic cliche, or normal impulse in the bdsm world.

I've had several transient relationship ultimately end because I could not stand the attempts at manipulation. Either that or they were too flat footed or too tiresome.

But if one is in love, in lust, or merely obsessed it's usually quite tolerable.

And beside, it can always be treated as a punishable offense.