too much of a political statement????????????
- Thread starter WriterDom
- Start date
JennyOmanHill
trying hard to be mindful
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2001
- Posts
- 11,151
WriterDom said:
Sad but true!
Haven't the years shown that the Olympic events ARE political? (At least the coverage given indicates that!) I cannot understand this particular decision, but what else is new? The USA is at war, and we're still participating in the games. And the dang thing is taking place in this country!! OK... you've got me started!!
Edited for Cheyenne's update:
WHEW! There, I feel much better now!
Last edited:
BustyTheClown
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2002
- Posts
- 921
I think it's SUPER that someone's finally taking a stand on the outrageous level of "patriotism" in this country. I mean, we were attacked by terrorists and shaken deeply, and I was truly touched by the outpouring of unifying support of our country from all over the world, as well as within the country itself. But come on! It's been months since the attacks! Domino's Pizza has been handing out American flags in their fucking pizza boxes, for crying out loud. This so-called "patriotism" has become a religion to people, steeped in symbolism and new traditions that aren't necessary -- they're even detrimental to our recovery, because we keep reminding ourselves of what happened. Yeah yeah, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it; I'm not suggesting we forget about what happened, we just need to admit that it happened, to deal with it, and to stop grieving over it. Isn't it enough that we have a flag already at ground zero? Isn't it enough that we're still holding the Olympics in the face of tragedy? Isn't it enough that our economy looks like it might be recovering? That last point is up for debate, but seriously, folks, isn't this getting a little out of hand? What if the Vatican was bombed? Would Domino's Pizza start giving out little stickers of the crucifix in their pizza boxes?
What we need to do is MOVE ON with our lives. Americans are so preoccupied with setting traditions that we get stuck in the past and can't keep on keeping on. There are SO many others who have been struck by terrorism worldwide, and do we hear them complaining like we are? No. They grieved and they GOT OVER IT. The people of this country need to realize that these little outpourings of emotion are not helping the victims of the attacks -- they're not even helping the rest of the country. We like to think we're helping, but why not help by actually doing something useful, like donating blood or volunteering in a local soup kitchen or something that can help this country improve on itself, rather than carrying out these meaningless symbolic acts of "patriotism"? This country needs a psychiatrist. We need to get over ourselves -- we are an arrogant nation and have lost all sense of modesty. We flaunt our grievances in front of other nations that have been even more ripped apart by terrorism with no respect for their losses. So what if the number of victims in the attacks on the WTC were greater than any other such attack in history? This isn't a competition, people. Dead are dead, and we aren't any more important than anyone else just because we had more of them in a single act of terrorism. Go support your country in a way that actually helps instead of wailing about these overexaggerated, overblown acts of symbolism.
Save symbolism for poetry -- use activism in life.
What we need to do is MOVE ON with our lives. Americans are so preoccupied with setting traditions that we get stuck in the past and can't keep on keeping on. There are SO many others who have been struck by terrorism worldwide, and do we hear them complaining like we are? No. They grieved and they GOT OVER IT. The people of this country need to realize that these little outpourings of emotion are not helping the victims of the attacks -- they're not even helping the rest of the country. We like to think we're helping, but why not help by actually doing something useful, like donating blood or volunteering in a local soup kitchen or something that can help this country improve on itself, rather than carrying out these meaningless symbolic acts of "patriotism"? This country needs a psychiatrist. We need to get over ourselves -- we are an arrogant nation and have lost all sense of modesty. We flaunt our grievances in front of other nations that have been even more ripped apart by terrorism with no respect for their losses. So what if the number of victims in the attacks on the WTC were greater than any other such attack in history? This isn't a competition, people. Dead are dead, and we aren't any more important than anyone else just because we had more of them in a single act of terrorism. Go support your country in a way that actually helps instead of wailing about these overexaggerated, overblown acts of symbolism.
Save symbolism for poetry -- use activism in life.
CelestialBody
Starlet of India
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2000
- Posts
- 7,904
MunchinMark
You int seen me, right?
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Posts
- 6,148
They played "Deutschland Uber Alles"?
That is wierd.
Erm, what is the gesture of using that particular flag supposed to mean anyway? What does it say that the stars and stripes don't always say? And what does that have to do with an international sporting competition?
That is wierd.
Erm, what is the gesture of using that particular flag supposed to mean anyway? What does it say that the stars and stripes don't always say? And what does that have to do with an international sporting competition?
BustyTheClown
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2002
- Posts
- 921
I just want to point out the hypocritical message of Sorsha's just above my first post on this board... This string is about peace and reconciliation, and her quote is about bitch-slapping someone... This is the hypocritical nature with which we carry out our daily lives, professing one thing and doing exactly another. Thanks for demonstrating my point Sorsha. I appreciate it.
CelestialBody
Starlet of India
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2000
- Posts
- 7,904
Mischka
Ms Snooby Pants
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2001
- Posts
- 15,820
This particular flag survived the attack on the World Trade Center. It's loaded with symbolism - the fortitude of the American spirit, the ability to withstand a direct attack on American ideals, etc. The Olympic games have frequently been the staging area for political statements, in large part because of their visibility. I find nothing wrong with any country displaying such a flag; it demonstrates their perseverance.MunchinMark said:
Additionally, the Olympic games always bring out the patriotic fervor of the competing countries. We compete as countires, not as individuals or teams. The athletes fly their countries' flags, they wear their countries' colors, and when they win, their national anthems are played. The athletes may be revered as individuals within their countries, but to the rest of the world they are known by their country's name, not theirs.
alltherage
orgasmic inDucktion
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 2,666
When the vatican moves to new york and gets blow up then maybe dominos should pass out a few crosses. I do not think that Americans are very in tune to traditions, in fact, I believe we have very few and are often the victem of our lack of concern for who we are as a nation. I find nothing in the outpouring of concern over what happened sept. 11 disturbing, with the exception of those who have sought to profit from the atrocity.BustyTheClown said:
You say other countries simply move on when they are attacked or bombed. I wish you would send the Israeli's a message suggesting they forget the bombers who set themselves off in wedding receptions and at dances. I wonder if the Brits have truely forgotten the violence done to them by the IRA. The point of not forgettting the atrocity is not to wallow in some collective pity pot. It colors present policy. It is important that people rememeber why we are engaged in the war we are presently fighting. In recent years it has been far to easy to detach from the reality of the world we live in and Americans have concerned themselves all too often with material gain.
For all our faults we have been and are the most charitable nation that has ever existed. We were before sept 11, and nothing has changed since. What other country could raise a billion dollars in a few weeks for a specific charity? I love this country when our generousity is arroused.
Do people remember Pearl Harbor. There are tuning points in history and I believe sept 11 is an example. I want people aware and focused. The danger in moving on is that we leave jobs half done. More darkly, the governments disconcern for our rights is something we all need to watch for. I would sooner have people focused on this event and its aftermath than on the next friends episode.
SINthysist
Rural Racist Homophobe
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 11,940
The U.S. should boycott the Olympics!
After all, it is competition, it is war, it is a display of national pride! Only two things can come of it.
Bitter hatred if we take a lot of medals, reminding all those two-bit little dictatorships and third-world rabble, the we are the rich, the lucky, the superpower, anathma to thier god. Someone will want to blow something up of ours.
Bitter loathing if we take very few of medals, reminding all those two-bit little dictatorships and third-world rabble, the we are the weak, the distracted, the paper superpower, anathma to thier god. Someone will want to blow something up of ours.
And yeah, we should just lob a few cruise missles at some indiscriminate target and just go home and forget about it.
After all, it is competition, it is war, it is a display of national pride! Only two things can come of it.
Bitter hatred if we take a lot of medals, reminding all those two-bit little dictatorships and third-world rabble, the we are the rich, the lucky, the superpower, anathma to thier god. Someone will want to blow something up of ours.
Bitter loathing if we take very few of medals, reminding all those two-bit little dictatorships and third-world rabble, the we are the weak, the distracted, the paper superpower, anathma to thier god. Someone will want to blow something up of ours.
And yeah, we should just lob a few cruise missles at some indiscriminate target and just go home and forget about it.
Last edited:
MunchinMark
You int seen me, right?
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Posts
- 6,148
No allies in sports though.
We saved your asses in the XI Olympiad.
If only more international competition was as genteel as the Olympics.
And the bit about Bitch slapping is Sorsha's signature line. It appears at the bottom of every Sorsha post.
I don't type 'always consider the possiblility that you might be dead wrong' in every post. I could be telling you that I am absolutely infallible and it would still be there.
We saved your asses in the XI Olympiad.
If only more international competition was as genteel as the Olympics.
And the bit about Bitch slapping is Sorsha's signature line. It appears at the bottom of every Sorsha post.
I don't type 'always consider the possiblility that you might be dead wrong' in every post. I could be telling you that I am absolutely infallible and it would still be there.
BustyTheClown
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2002
- Posts
- 921
To alltherage...
I understand why you responded to my post the way you did, bringing up previous terrorist attacks on other countries. I never explicitly said that other nations have *forgotten* their past attacks, nor did I say that we should forget the September 11th attacks -- because I don't think we should forget any of it -- but I can see how the tone of my post would lead you to conclude that I at least implied that we should forget it. But no, I said that we need to "get over it," not that we should forget it. (Not that we could forget it if we tried...) Also, you said that if the Vatican moved to NY and then was bombed that Domino's should put little crucifix stickers in their boxes... I'm not sure I see the importance of location in this matter. I understand that since Domino's is an American company that it makes more sense for it to put flags in its boxes to support America after the attacks, and it would make less sense for it to put crucifixes in its boxes if the Vatican was bombed -- especially since it isn't a religion-affiliated company -- but that wasn't my point. It was the act of symbolism that I was attacking, not what happened.
As for the whole issue about Olympic atheletes carrying the American flag to ground zero... My problem with it is that I feel like it is an inappropriate message to send to the people of this country and the rest of the world. On the surface, it seems like a good idea, it seems like patriotism. What's wrong with that? But basically what we're doing -- especially by having the "best of the best," if you will, delivering the flag to ground zero -- is giving a giant finger to the rest of the world. It is an incredibly passive-aggressive act, saying that "We are the best, and you are pitiful. You have tried our strength and we have prevailed, and we always will prevail. We are the best of the best." This may be somewhat appropriate for Americans to say to one another to ease the pain of such a ferocious attack on the country, but I find it highly offensive to the rest of the world -- especially the people who did such a heinous thing. We're basically saying "FUCK YOU!" to them, which many people may want to do, but since when has saying "fuck you" to someone who just punched you out been a good thing? We need to get over this whole high-schoolish obsession with always being the best, with always getting the last word. Why don't we just continue as normal, show them that we are over it and won't even grace their actions with a response? I think that would be a far more powerful statement to make -- not "up yours," but "we know what you did and we're not acknowledging it." Again, I'm not suggesting that we forget it, but it's more like a child throwing a tantrum and the mother just going about her business. Trying to get revenge in such a silly, symbolic way very well may just make us the target of future attacks. Of course, no one can know for sure what the future holds, but I for one am all for this country acting mature for once in its relatively short history.
I understand why you responded to my post the way you did, bringing up previous terrorist attacks on other countries. I never explicitly said that other nations have *forgotten* their past attacks, nor did I say that we should forget the September 11th attacks -- because I don't think we should forget any of it -- but I can see how the tone of my post would lead you to conclude that I at least implied that we should forget it. But no, I said that we need to "get over it," not that we should forget it. (Not that we could forget it if we tried...) Also, you said that if the Vatican moved to NY and then was bombed that Domino's should put little crucifix stickers in their boxes... I'm not sure I see the importance of location in this matter. I understand that since Domino's is an American company that it makes more sense for it to put flags in its boxes to support America after the attacks, and it would make less sense for it to put crucifixes in its boxes if the Vatican was bombed -- especially since it isn't a religion-affiliated company -- but that wasn't my point. It was the act of symbolism that I was attacking, not what happened.
As for the whole issue about Olympic atheletes carrying the American flag to ground zero... My problem with it is that I feel like it is an inappropriate message to send to the people of this country and the rest of the world. On the surface, it seems like a good idea, it seems like patriotism. What's wrong with that? But basically what we're doing -- especially by having the "best of the best," if you will, delivering the flag to ground zero -- is giving a giant finger to the rest of the world. It is an incredibly passive-aggressive act, saying that "We are the best, and you are pitiful. You have tried our strength and we have prevailed, and we always will prevail. We are the best of the best." This may be somewhat appropriate for Americans to say to one another to ease the pain of such a ferocious attack on the country, but I find it highly offensive to the rest of the world -- especially the people who did such a heinous thing. We're basically saying "FUCK YOU!" to them, which many people may want to do, but since when has saying "fuck you" to someone who just punched you out been a good thing? We need to get over this whole high-schoolish obsession with always being the best, with always getting the last word. Why don't we just continue as normal, show them that we are over it and won't even grace their actions with a response? I think that would be a far more powerful statement to make -- not "up yours," but "we know what you did and we're not acknowledging it." Again, I'm not suggesting that we forget it, but it's more like a child throwing a tantrum and the mother just going about her business. Trying to get revenge in such a silly, symbolic way very well may just make us the target of future attacks. Of course, no one can know for sure what the future holds, but I for one am all for this country acting mature for once in its relatively short history.
Tim1
Famous Comic
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 1,929
It's
Its all still too fresh in the minds of Americans i think to "move on". We will move on in time but we will never forget. Mainly because i don't think that act on Sept, 11th will be the last we ever see of that kind of attack on America.
I can understnd your point Busty, but it will take some time. I believe that alot of Americans now have found their patriotism maybe for the first time. It has given them a deep sense of country. I support what we will do at the Olympics, and hope this country never forgets what others in this world would like to do TO us if given half a chance.
Flags in pizza boxes? I 'm not sure how I feel about that.
Its all still too fresh in the minds of Americans i think to "move on". We will move on in time but we will never forget. Mainly because i don't think that act on Sept, 11th will be the last we ever see of that kind of attack on America.
I can understnd your point Busty, but it will take some time. I believe that alot of Americans now have found their patriotism maybe for the first time. It has given them a deep sense of country. I support what we will do at the Olympics, and hope this country never forgets what others in this world would like to do TO us if given half a chance.
Flags in pizza boxes? I 'm not sure how I feel about that.
JennyOmanHill
trying hard to be mindful
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2001
- Posts
- 11,151
Tim1 said:
Just an added thought: USA is at war; Olympics are taking place in this country; let's honor and remember all our loved ones who are not here to enjoy this in peace.
BustyTheClown
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2002
- Posts
- 921
Regarding newfound patriotism
I understand your point, Tim1... I was one of the people who found patriotism for the first time ever with the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon. I was deeply moved by the outpouring of support from all over the country, and all over the world. Since it was the first major attack on the US since Pearl Harbor, I can also understand why it might be especially hard on Americans -- there wasn't even a war going on when we were attacked this time. It literally came out of the sky, landed on our plates, and we still don't really know what to do with it.
However, since I was one of the people who got their first taste of patriotism with the attacks, I think I can safely say that it's gotten out of control. I don't mind people supporting their country -- I'm not one to do it very often, but I'm not opposed to an American flag here and there -- but everywhere I turn I see red... and white, and blue. I'm getting sick of it! Even my grandpa, who is the most patriotic man I know, is tired of seeing American flags everywhere. Overusing a symbol tends to ruin its potency, and I feel like we are grossly overusing the symbol of our country to make a statement that's already been made thousands of times: America is great, America is strong, yay America. It just seems flippant and arrogant to me now that we still display American flags everywhere. It's as if we're ignoring the fact that other countries have been victims of terrorist attacks, as if we're the first ones to suffer like this and it's the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind. Maybe it's because we're still a young nation; maybe this is all like a teenager's first break-up. We felt like we were on top of the world, like we were invincible, and now that we've felt the slap of harsh reality on our cheek, we're heartbroken.
Well, with time and experience (and I agree with you that the September 11th attacks will not be the last on America), we'll realize that we aren't the only ones who have been hurt like that. It's a common experience now, as sad as that may seem. I don't like saying it just as much as the rest of you don't like hearing it; but this is the world we live in, it's the world we've created our own selves. We can't pretend like we're invincible anymore, and I just feel like our choke-hold on these overt symbolic acts is ignorant. It feels like reality is staring us cold in the face while we hold up our frail little fingers in the antichrist sign to ward it off. It's useless, and the faster we just stare back at reality, the faster we'll be able to prepare ourselves for whatever else comes our way.
I understand your point, Tim1... I was one of the people who found patriotism for the first time ever with the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon. I was deeply moved by the outpouring of support from all over the country, and all over the world. Since it was the first major attack on the US since Pearl Harbor, I can also understand why it might be especially hard on Americans -- there wasn't even a war going on when we were attacked this time. It literally came out of the sky, landed on our plates, and we still don't really know what to do with it.
However, since I was one of the people who got their first taste of patriotism with the attacks, I think I can safely say that it's gotten out of control. I don't mind people supporting their country -- I'm not one to do it very often, but I'm not opposed to an American flag here and there -- but everywhere I turn I see red... and white, and blue. I'm getting sick of it! Even my grandpa, who is the most patriotic man I know, is tired of seeing American flags everywhere. Overusing a symbol tends to ruin its potency, and I feel like we are grossly overusing the symbol of our country to make a statement that's already been made thousands of times: America is great, America is strong, yay America. It just seems flippant and arrogant to me now that we still display American flags everywhere. It's as if we're ignoring the fact that other countries have been victims of terrorist attacks, as if we're the first ones to suffer like this and it's the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind. Maybe it's because we're still a young nation; maybe this is all like a teenager's first break-up. We felt like we were on top of the world, like we were invincible, and now that we've felt the slap of harsh reality on our cheek, we're heartbroken.
Well, with time and experience (and I agree with you that the September 11th attacks will not be the last on America), we'll realize that we aren't the only ones who have been hurt like that. It's a common experience now, as sad as that may seem. I don't like saying it just as much as the rest of you don't like hearing it; but this is the world we live in, it's the world we've created our own selves. We can't pretend like we're invincible anymore, and I just feel like our choke-hold on these overt symbolic acts is ignorant. It feels like reality is staring us cold in the face while we hold up our frail little fingers in the antichrist sign to ward it off. It's useless, and the faster we just stare back at reality, the faster we'll be able to prepare ourselves for whatever else comes our way.
modest mouse
Meating People is Easy
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2001
- Posts
- 8,363
I havnt taken the time to read some of the lengthy posts in theis thread but my thought...
The world coming together for the Olympics happens every two years, regardless of world events(with several notable exceptions). I, personally, would prefer the world community did so without any context other than the games. The inclusion of the flag feels forced to me and actually lessens the idea that the world is already a natural community.
It does have the tone of the U.S. throwing its power around rather than incorporating itself into the games, in Utah or not.
The world coming together for the Olympics happens every two years, regardless of world events(with several notable exceptions). I, personally, would prefer the world community did so without any context other than the games. The inclusion of the flag feels forced to me and actually lessens the idea that the world is already a natural community.
It does have the tone of the U.S. throwing its power around rather than incorporating itself into the games, in Utah or not.
BustyTheClown
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2002
- Posts
- 921
Is this better ? 
What do you mean I need to learn about spacing? I'm an English major.
As for modest mouse, I agree with you totally -- or were you agreeing with me first...?
What do you mean I need to learn about spacing? I'm an English major.As for modest mouse, I agree with you totally -- or were you agreeing with me first...?
Similar threads
