To the Critics....

[Guest]

I have sat here and read so much poetry and then popped through the new poems thread.

I am warning the reader's now this is a vent because I just got done reading a PC that someone left that made my blood boil.

Listen up closely....

Poetry is about the writer, it is about what we feel when we feel it and how we feel it. We do not write it so that some critic that sits behind their computer screen all day long can come through and RE-WRITE it for us because they didn't get what we were feeling or intending or hell they decided that they needed to change what we were feeling or intending.

Poetry is subjective with that in mind if you don't understand what the author wrote or you don't think that they meant what you read then ask us but do not sit there and rewrite a poem to your liking because it fits better in your world.

HOW DARE YOU!!!

I have seen some of the reviews, the ones that only talk about the poems that they actually liked that day. Great and wonderful thank you for bringing my attention to the ones that you felt moved you that day but I will be damned if I simply sit by and smile and nod while someone walks through and shytes all over someone's poem because it did not conform to their world.

There are hundreds if not thousands of authors that come and read and write on Lit. I would not wish to be the one that told someone their poem (or even story) suched and then have them never try again.

NONE of us have the right to sit there and re-write or trash someone's attempt so badly that poeple just stop writing.

And yes if you are taking this posting personally then guess what that is EXACTLY what I intended but if your reading this and don't understand... well then you are not one of the ones that have been jacking with people.

Have a pleasent day.

 

[jthserra]

When someone clicks that little box...

Requesting public feedback, I assume they want honest feedback, something of substance. I try to offer more than just the banal, "good work, beautiful poem". I try to offer what I find exceptional in a poem, and what I think detracts from the poem.

The feedback I have received from poets and writers alike has been positive with regard to my comments. I guess I should ask everyone to let me know if I should continue or should I stop.


With respect to the haiku by Echoes_s... I found her haiku superior to the vast majority of the haiku I have seen at this site. She exhibited an understanding of the form well beyond what most people understand. I simply emphasized some other facets she might want to consider. I think I have helped her with her work... Echoes_s have I helped?


Please understand, often the people I offer the most detailed critique to are the ones who have posted the strongest poem or story, or show the most potential with a poem. And I think if you took the time to read and understand my comments, you will find that I have never told anyone that their poem "sucked".


Poetry is about the writer, it is also about the reader. If you don't care what the reader thinks then simply click off the PC button, or if you want only feedback of a specific sort, note that at the bottom of the poem. Believe me, just saying "good poem, pretty rhyme, beautiful lyrics" is a lot easier and less time consuming than attempting thoughtful and detailed comment.

A question to other poets here... should I stop commenting, or amend my comments to "good poem" or should I continue as I have?


jim : )

 

[WickedEve]

"Poetry is about the writer, it is about what we feel when we feel it and how we feel it." Elizabetht, I agree with you. If you write a poem only for yourself, then yes, it's all about the writer. But once you share that poem with an audience, it ceases to be just about the writer. Something magical takes place: there's interaction between the poem and the reader. That reader is free to form his or her own relationship with that poem.
It's really pointless to share "it only means something to me, the writer" kind of poetry. Once you bring your words to an audience, it's usually because you're seeking to make a connection with the reader.
As far as feedback, there is nothing of more value to any writer than honest and constructive feedback. I love the public comments. It's wonderful to be praised for your work, but there is no greater gift than to have a reader offer his views on your words. Even better if he gives you suggestions for improvements you never thought of or overlooked.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I wish I could get more feedback trashing and rewriting my poems. If I want to improve the quality of my writing, I crave for honest feedback telling me exactly what my readers think.

Poetry isn't about the writer. Poetry is Art. Poetry is communication. Poetry is comprehension.

When someone posts poems in a public forum, they are expecting them to be read. When someone requests or allows feedback, public or not, I assume they want to know what I, the reader, think about that poem, what works and what doesn't and how else it could be done, in my opinion.

Whenever someone starts whining about getting exhaustive, well thought-out, justified, negative feedback and claiming they write 'for themselves', my knee-jerk reaction is ALWAYS a very audible fuck you! If they write for themselves, why the hell are they wasting my fucking time? Why aren't those written-for-myself poems confined to their personal journals and underwear drawers?

As for the new writers, if they are writing-for-myself type of writers, see above. If they not, it wouldn't hurt if they were to develop a thick skin fast.



PS: Jim, I hope that answered your question.
PPS: Eve! Hope you're feeling better! I think your email isn't working. Did you change it AGAIN?

 

[Liar]

so easy
to step on a toe
to trigger a scratch
and a scar reminding
that intention is not all

please,
breathe,
no harm
no foul intended

in spirit of season
give benefit of doubt

dissonance
through sudden slander
shrieks the blues
in me

---


Elisabetht, I have seen public comments here that made me want to smash my screen to pieces. Something like this, often delivered by anonymous cowards:

You call this poetry?

Obviously, your muse died long ago.

Stop posting your trash here.

That is what I call destructive public commetns. I would had understand you if this was about a blatant trashing like that. Jim's comment was, first of all, positive. In favor of a good poem. Second, it offered insightful and specific feedback on how to make it even truer to the intricate form of haiku, something that he knows quite a lot about.

The question really is, what is the Public Comments for? Personally, I'd rather have specific constructive critisism than just "I liked your poem"-posts any day. But maybe that would be better better delivered as a private feedback mail?

#L

ps. Hi Eve! Good to hear from you.

 

[WickedEve]

Lauren, I'll look into the email thingy.
Liar, hi and

Elizabetht, here's a PC of mine that's my pride and joy:

This is bad bad
02/22/04 by Anonymous in canada
Where the hell did you learn to write. It sure wasn't in school was it. Your lucky I gave you a two. Not good for your score is it.
JB

You may ask what I learned from that PC. Well, I'll tell you. Readers in Canada are concerned about my schooling. God Bless 'em. I learned that a poet is lucky to get a two. I really should have gotten a 1 but I lucked out. And that's about all I got out of JB's PC.

 

[Maria2394]

we ll da mn

he we go again? I love this argumant, PC or not to PC,,,

I gotta stick my nose in s orry...

I love the PC's too, especially the ones that help me. But I have found that I am sooo intimidated by some of the talent on this board I often dont know what to say to improve their work...

If I ever have something to say that isnt all shiny and sweet, I send it in a PM or and email and I usually sign my name, but I get ditsy sometimes and forget my EMAIL addy..I had one poet on here, I encouraged on and on, and then sent him and email and forgot the return and he blasted me...so fuck him..he knows who he is!!! accused me of being anonymopus, how would he have known to write me back if iwere so blatantly anon??


I agree with Laurned and Eve and every one else that said once its posted, its a connection. I want you all to read my poetry, I want you all to know what makes me smile, what makes me hot and ooohhh so wet, and what hurts me deep inside cause frankly, so far into my life no one has ever given a real shit about me in any way..so this is my outlet.


Thanks to everyone who has suppoerted me..and all I can say is if you dont like the PC and FB, dont leave the options open..

and as far as the rude ones like name calling and insulting people's technique or subject matter, you really need to ( at least) try to ignore the insensitive idiots, there will always be some of those

maria

 

[BigAndTall]

I wish I could get more feedback trashing and rewriting my poems. If I want to improve the quality of my writing, I crave for honest feedback telling me exactly what my readers think.

Poetry isn't about the writer. Poetry is Art. Poetry is communication. Poetry is comprehension.

When someone posts poems in a public forum, they are expecting them to be read. When someone requests or allows feedback, public or not, I assume they want to know what I, the reader, think about that poem, what works and what doesn't and how else it could be done, in my opinion.

Whenever someone starts whining about getting exhaustive, well thought-out, justified, negative feedback and claiming they write 'for themselves', my knee-jerk reaction is ALWAYS a very audible fuck you! If they write for themselves, why the hell are they wasting my fucking time? Why aren't those written-for-myself poems confined to their personal journals and underwear drawers?

As for the new writers, if they are writing-for-myself type of writers, see above. If they not, it wouldn't hurt if they were to develop a thick skin fast.



PS: Jim, I hope that answered your question.
PPS: Eve! Hope you're feeling better! I think your email isn't working. Did you change it AGAIN?

I try to give feeback on anything that I do read. Part of my problem is there are so many writers and I only have so much time to read something. I don't want to HAVE to read, but I just do it when I want to read a poem, story, whatever.

But I 90% of the time give feedback. To be honest here, I sometimes feel a little stupid about it, but hope the recipent of my thoughts doesn't mind.

 

[WickedEve]

I try to give feeback on anything that I do read. Part of my problem is there are so many writers and I only have so much time to read something. I don't want to HAVE to read, but I just do it when I want to read a poem, story, whatever.

But I 90% of the time give feedback. To be honest here, I sometimes feel a little stupid about it, but hope the recipent of my thoughts doesn't mind.

I think writers enjoy the majority of feedback they receive, even it's only, "Hey, I really like your poem" or maybe something a little more specific, "Cool phrase you came up with!" So keep giving feedback when you can.

 

[Tathagata]

I'd like to respond to the " Fuck you' for writers that write for themselves.

I do write for myself and what I mean by that is...I don't aim to please anyone, or a certain demographic.
I write what I feel
how i feel
much like a jazz solo or improv.
I love to share, i love to make a connection...but on my terms.
If it touches you..great
if you hate it...fine
either way i'm the same
I write so that what I write satisfies ME
it says what I want to say the way I want to say it.
I do take criticism...constructive criticism, as helpful in future writings.
However...if someone doesn't understand it and then criticizes me for that
My reaction is...if you get nothing out of it..it wasn't meant for you.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant when i said write for yourself
I think, perhaps " fuck you" was a rather strong statement

Or should I start keeping all my work in an underwear drawer??

 

[Lauren Hynde]

The 'fuck you' was for writers who whine about getting exhaustive, well thought-out, justified, negative feedback and use writing for oneself as an excuse. I don't think that is what you did. They have wasted my time. For that alone, a subvocalized 'fuck you' is much too tame, if you ask me.

 

[Tathagata]

The 'fuck you' was for writers who whine about getting exhaustive, well thought-out, justified, negative feedback and use writing for oneself as an excuse. I don't think that is what you did. They have wasted my time. For that alone, a subvocalized 'fuck you' is much too tame, if you ask me.

As for the new writers, if they are writing-for-myself type of writers, see above. If they not, it wouldn't hurt if they were to develop a thick skin fast.

being a " new writer" I wasn't sure




I'm glad we cleared that up
i don't mind feedback either way

and remember...you can always delete it if you don't like it.

My apologies for making an assumption
Thank you for responding quickly

 

[minsue]

I wish I could get more feedback trashing and rewriting my poems. If I want to improve the quality of my writing, I crave for honest feedback telling me exactly what my readers think.

Poetry isn't about the writer. Poetry is Art. Poetry is communication. Poetry is comprehension.

When someone posts poems in a public forum, they are expecting them to be read. When someone requests or allows feedback, public or not, I assume they want to know what I, the reader, think about that poem, what works and what doesn't and how else it could be done, in my opinion.

Whenever someone starts whining about getting exhaustive, well thought-out, justified, negative feedback and claiming they write 'for themselves', my knee-jerk reaction is ALWAYS a very audible fuck you! If they write for themselves, why the hell are they wasting my fucking time? Why aren't those written-for-myself poems confined to their personal journals and underwear drawers?

As for the new writers, if they are writing-for-myself type of writers, see above. If they not, it wouldn't hurt if they were to develop a thick skin fast.



PS: Jim, I hope that answered your question.
PPS: Eve! Hope you're feeling better! I think your email isn't working. Did you change it AGAIN?

I see both sides in this debate and agree with both. (An unusual occurence for me. )

There is one thing that I'd like to adress and that is the question of why would someone post poetry on the internet if they are not looking for feedback. Personally, I post my various ramblings on the 10 word and the All of a Sudden threads because there are thoughts and feelings that need to be expressed. Somehow, it's as though they aren't real if I don't put them out there for the world to see. I do it here because of the relative anonymity and because no one has complained. When I submitted a poem to Lit it was simply because she told me I should. I could no more deny her than I could deny my own breath.

I do not post looking for criticism or validation. I don't even think my posts can really be classified as poetry, though, so I'm sure that's part of it. I would feel bad if someone took the time to offer critism or suggestions for any of my posts because I am not a serious poet by any means. It would be nice to write well, but I don't and I am OK with that.

Now that I've re-read this, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say and I can see that I'm just babbling and rambling as usual. I'll post it anyway, though.

Love to all

- Mindy, poet groupie

 

[Lauren Hynde]

being a " new writer" I wasn't sure

I'm all for new writers. They're the ones with more potential to improve.

I'm glad we cleared that up
i don't mind feedback either way

and remember...you can always delete it if you don't like it.

My apologies for making an assumption
Thank you for responding quickly

That's the best attitude. Personally, I never delete any sort of feedback, public or private. All have their purpose and use, even if it's just a quick laugh (see Eve's post above for an example of that ).

My apologies for going for the jugular. Like I said, knee-jerk reaction. It's not always the most appropriate.

 

[Tathagata]

My apologies for going for the jugular.

you just knew it was my weak spot

 

[CharleyH]

Poetry is about the writer, it is about what we feel when we feel it and how we feel it. We do not write it so that some critic that sits behind their computer screen all day long can come through and RE-WRITE it for us because they didn't get what we were feeling or intending or hell they decided that they needed to change what we were feeling or intending.

Hmm, WELL - you have not met any of my English class teachers or Professors have you?

I once had a signature line, "It's hard to imagine imagining without a language to use." This is also applicable to your post. Words are written or spoken so that they can be understood. The semiotics of words, lines, stanzas in form and content are understood BECAUSE there is an agreement about the meaning in each culture, but you cannot control, as an author or poet, how another will read it since to read is an ACTIVE and not passive process of interaction between the experience of the one who reads, and the one who writes. Lauren is right about poetry being communication. I could get long winded here but won't.

You can only be interested that someone did actually READ it, since the intent in publishing, as someone else said, is to have it READ.

Be happy in the first place that someone 'looked', and in the second place be fascinated that they 'SEE' it from their perspective, not yours.

 

[*Catbabe*]

I don't get a chance to write and post as much as I would like, but when I do, I long for people to tell me what they thought worked in the poem/story but more importantly, the elements they thought were weak.

I submitted a poem last weekend that ended up with two public comments. They both said complimentary things, which were very nice because everyone likes their ego stroked. However, it was Lauren's (and I thank her for it *s*) comment with regard to the poem lacking tension that was the most helpful to me as a writer. It was something I took from the experience and hopefully it will improve my next piece. Nobody will improve if all they hear is,"You're amazing."
(BTW this is in no way an attack on the thread starter, but more of a response to Jim's question regarding feedback and how people feel about it.)


My thanks to everyone like Jim, Eve, Lauren, Anna, Liar, echoes_s, O.T., Rybka, Ange, Steve, Maria, ee, Lin, Senna, Tess, Cordie, Homer and Ice who take the time to write comments that both encourage and promote growth in all of us.

I am writing this in a bit of a rush so if I missed anyone I'm sorry. It certainly wasn't intentional.

 

[Angeline]

Everyone writes for him or herself--first and foremost. The urge to create writing is internal--you have to want to do it yourself even if someone else asks you to write something for them. Writing is communication however; it is a contract between producer (writer) and consumer (reader). This is the definitive nature of communication and--IMHO--if you don't wish to communicate, why share anything you write? If you produce a poem or whatever solely for yourself, simply doing it is enough--you don't need to show it to anyone. Put it in (as Tatagatha says) your underwear drawer and finis.

The cost of the ticket to show your poem publically is that some people won't like some or all of it. They may share this with you in a polite or rude way. I've been told, variously, that I don't write poetry, that my poem sucks, and on and on ad nauseum. Ok, if you don't like my poem, fine--I really don't care. I do, however, care very much about improving as a writer. Any criticism--even "this sucks"--will prompt me to go back and ask myself whether I really did fail the reader and, if so, how. I may not feel good about being told I didn't do a good job, but any comment that results in me understanding more and improving is good.

Most people don't know how to critique writing. I say this having spent close to 20 years as an editor, looking at writing word by word asking "is it correct, is it clear, is it the best way to communicate what I think this writer is trying to say?" I've always tried to be as tactful as possible in my reviews because I know people (myself included) are notoriously thin-skinned about their art. Most people can't be so careful in a critique if for no other reason than that they aren't trained in it. I have to say though that a comment from someone like jthserra, who to me has both insight and the ability to articulate it, is a gift. I welcome that, and if it's not what I want to hear, I move on.

I agree that it's sad if someone is so sensitive that a comment makes them want to stop writing, If that's the case though he or she probably should plan on having poems spend a lifetime in the underwear drawer and forget about showing them to anyone else.

I can be critical in my review of a poem. If anyone doesn't want that, tell me and I won't review your stuff. In truth though, my critical remarks are a sign not that I think a poem sucks, but that I think it's good enough to strengthen what's weak in it. I suspect this was exactly Jim's motivation in his comment as well.

Peace,
Ange

P.S. Eve baby, welcome home.

 

[Linbido]

Hmm. Lost of misread intention here today.

1. To me it seems like almost all of you misunderstood the content of the original post here. I think Elizabetht's post was not about the justification for critisism in genneral. What got her rallied up was the fact that the whole poem had been rewritten in a "here's how I would had done it" kind of way. I don't agree that it was that preposterous, but I can understand what she mean. None of your replys seems to adress this.

2. The intent of Jim's comment was also misread, as pointed out earlier. He likes the poem, he gives it a shiny 5 and then offers a suggection on how to make it not a better poem, but only more haiku, since it after all was intended as one. The title even says so.

Now, generally speaking, I write for three reasons. First of all for me, because I have things that I feel the need to put into words. I also write to learn how to express myslef. Those two often correlate, but not always. I have poems neatly tucked away that are very important to me, but that are too cryptic to comprehend, like a language of my own. There is one last reason: That I actually am cocky enough to think that what I write can make a differrence to someone else.

Those two last reasons are the ones that makes me show my poems to the world. I don't care either or if people like them, but I do care that they understand them.

I posted a poem some months ago, and got so many "wtf does it mean?" comments and mails that I decided to pull it from the site. That was not because of the "you don't understand me" syndrome, but the exact opposite, the "I don't understand you". And before I did understand, and learn to communicate, I should not give you such personal poems to mis-read.

Everything I post here, in threads or on the site, are there because I want to know if it communicates or not, and if anyone have any good ideas how I could improve the communication.

So please, dissect me.

 

[Guest]

Hmm. Lost of misread intention here today.

1. To me it seems like almost all of you misunderstood the content of the original post here. I think Elizabetht's post was not about the justification for critisism in genneral. What got her rallied up was the fact that the whole poem had been rewritten in a "here's how I would had done it" kind of way. I don't agree that it was that preposterous, but I can understand what she mean. None of your replys seems to adress this.

Thank you Linbido.
That was entirely my point. Critic if you want but rewriting it for me as your critique makes it your poem not mine.

As for those that completely missed what I was saying.
Yes, I write for me. I post for me. I do any and all writing for me and for some that I just think would enjoy it. Somedays what I write is wonderful to others and some days it only makes sense to me. However, I leave the PCs on and the Feedback on because I want to know if something struck someone as particularly interesting.

And maybe... just maybe.. .that newbie writer that puts something up that has it get trashed or rewritten for them... needed our support... not our slice and dice...

 

[Angeline]

Thank you Linbido.
That was entirely my point. Critic if you want but rewriting it for me as your critique makes it your poem not mine.

As for those that completely missed what I was saying.
Yes, I write for me. I post for me. I do any and all writing for me and for some that I just think would enjoy it. Somedays what I write is wonderful to others and some days it only makes sense to me. However, I leave the PCs on and the Feedback on because I want to know if something struck someone as particularly interesting.

And maybe... just maybe.. .that newbie writer that puts something up that has it get trashed or rewritten for them... needed our support... not our slice and dice...

Thanks for the clarification Elizabeth (and Lin!). I hope you know that I very much enjoy your poems here, and was simply expressing my opinion. I should have said that the first time around.

 

[OT]

yours, mine and ours

That was entirely my point. Critic if you want but rewriting it for me as your critique makes it your poem not mine.

I sometimes "rewrite" portions of a persons poem (rarely the whole thing, but I often tackle a line or stanza). When I do, it is *never* intended as a wholesale replacement, or meant to imply that my version is better.

It is sometimes just the most effective way to "show" someone an alternative.

I can simply say: "I think line #2 is weak."
Or I can say Line#2 is weak, and here is how to strengthen it: ...

The author may not agree, but at least I have provided an example of what I meant by a stronger line.

I find it very helpful when folks suggest alternatives to me. Even when I disagree, I feel even better about my line, because it causes me to rethink and affirm that yep, by golly I put it there on purpose.

And you make a good point, too many "suggestions" and it becomes a collaborative effort.

 

[WickedEve]

As for those that completely missed what I was saying.

I always miss the point.

P.S. Eve baby, welcome home.

Yeah, I guess after all this time it is home. Home is such an odd place sometimes. lol

 

[normal jean]

ET, I dont think as many people misunderstood as you like to think. You began by whining about PC's...would you have complained if everyone said your stuff was perfectly awesome? NObody is perfect, we all try to do our best to help one another ( except the anon that flames everyoemn with 1 votes when they dont feel sucked up to enuf)

. I know someone on here once suggested that a certain poet use spell check and she started in with that, I write for me BS...does that sound familiar?

cuz I remember who it was....

 

[normal jean]

Hmm. Lost of misread intention here today.

1. To me it seems like almost all of you misunderstood the content of the original post here. I think Elizabetht's post was not about the justification for critisism in genneral. What got her rallied up was the fact that the whole poem had been rewritten in a "here's how I would had done it" kind of way. I don't agree that it was that preposterous, but I can understand what she mean. None of your replys seems to adress this.

2. The intent of Jim's comment was also misread, as pointed out earlier. He likes the poem, he gives it a shiny 5 and then offers a suggection on how to make it not a better poem, but only more haiku, since it after all was intended as one. The title even says so.

Now, generally speaking, I write for three reasons. First of all for me, because I have things that I feel the need to put into words. I also write to learn how to express myslef. Those two often correlate, but not always. I have poems neatly tucked away that are very important to me, but that are too cryptic to comprehend, like a language of my own. There is one last reason: That I actually am cocky enough to think that what I write can make a differrence to someone else.

Those two last reasons are the ones that makes me show my poems to the world. I don't care either or if people like them, but I do care that they understand them.

I posted a poem some months ago, and got so many "wtf does it mean?" comments and mails that I decided to pull it from the site. That was not because of the "you don't understand me" syndrome, but the exact opposite, the "I don't understand you". And before I did understand, and learn to communicate, I should not give you such personal poems to mis-read.

Everything I post here, in threads or on the site, are there because I want to know if it communicates or not, and if anyone have any good ideas how I could improve the communication.

So please, dissect me.

dear Lin,
I think I remember the poem you mentioned. was it the one where you referred to "it"? I didnt get it at first, but I like your perspective and I reread it in different moods and frames of mind till I did get it and it was a fantastic and emotional poem..and you pulled it? thats a shame..it was good and if anyone ever did dare to dissect you, what would they find? a heart of gold and kindness and beauty all inside...