To Test or Not to Test

[lavender]

 

[april-wine]

although i am canadian and i don't know much about what is going on in the education system in the states, i have a little insight.....i started highschool with a friend, we hung out all through out highschool to graduation.....we came from the same area in town had all the same opportunitys......took the same classes.......when we graduated, she could barely read or write.....and yet she graduated, crazy.......i don't know much about testing, but some huge overhauls in education are needed........

 

[Myrrdin]

In Britain testing has gone on for a while. Teachers have squealed, voted to strike etc. The results are published as league tables etc. So parents know how schools are performing against other schools in the area.
The weakest schools are taken away from local authority care and managed by a government task force.
Teachers have complained vociferously about their abilities being published for the whole country to see, but it establishes a degree of accountablity. a gegree of competition. The same as in the real world. The best thrive, the weakest are identified.

 

[Jessy]

Testing should be done because there are lots of kids out there that manage to graduate when they can barely read or write and that is just wrong.

 

[Bluenose]

test

I am also from Canada and as I see it there are more and more kids graduating from school being unable to read. There has to be some sort of testing and accountability for these kids graduating.

 

[Laurel]

“I find it amazing,” Sen. Paul Wellstone, who is spearheading the anti-testing forces in the Senate, told me, “that testing, which was supposed to be a way of assessing reform, is now being treated as actual reform.”

Bingo!

We already NOW that our schools aren't as effective as they could be. Tests are a diagnostic tool. They don't TEACH anything. If we already know that our schools are in trouble, how is testing them going to solve anything? All tests will do is tell us what we already know.

Rather than spend millions of dollars instituting tests as a way to punish schools for not having the resources to educate their students, I'd rather we put out money into improve curriculum and hiring better teachers. But that's just me.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Ancient China

has always had a system of test and literacy to determine who was the creme-de-la-creme. Here, I thought it was what you accomplished! Sweat and perseverance often overcome other limitations.

More and more, where I live, we are home schooling. I have a lot to say about the school system, but more this weekend when I talk about my generation...

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I agree Laurel...

but I am beginning to think we need a two-tired (sp?) system: One for those with potential and one for those who either have no potential or need to be taught to have potential. That is a hard concept after a lot of wiskey, but by way of example,

In the early '60's I was brought up in a grade school system that divided the students according to ability and taught each group to that ability. There was a dumb class, and avergae class, and a class for those who could achieve. Now I know it was denigrating perhaps for those in a lesser class, but at the same time, the rest were not held back.

But then that was the first really liberal, enlightened program once they got us all into the school and out of one classroom.

 

[Bigdog]

To those who missed it, this is not testing for graduation competency. They are talking about third thru eighth grade.

As the parent of a seventh grader who is tested by the state of California, I have to weigh in and say this kind of testing is FUCKING STUPID! They spend three weeks preparing and practicing for the tests, then spend one whole week taking them. One whole month wasted on taking tests that are used for the sole purpose of deciding which schools have improved over last year and get bonus funding. As an example, my daughter's school tested this last year at an average score of 718. Since the year before the average score was 708 and the targeted improvement was 8, they received $140,000. All because the next year's batch of trained seals did 10 points better on a test they were coached on for three weeks.

I can think of far better ways to spend $320 million for education.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Good point,

How are are the teachers fighting testing for themselves? How about teaching malpractice insurance? Is that available?

 

[Myrrdin]

My high school education was in the UK in the seventies. Segregation according to ability had just been abandoned, in favour of mixed ability classes. Everyone learned at the speed of the slowest person.
I made my choices about which subjects to pursue were not made because of which subjects I was good at, but by which subjects had a teacher capable of teaching the subject to an exam pass.
Teachers considered they had a job for life. My parent was a school governor, on the committee responsible for hiring school staff. He knew the only way to get rid of an inadequate teacher was to give himn a glowing report and hope some other school would hire him and get him off their hands.
I welcome testing. There is no reason teachers should not be judged the same as any other worker. Let the successful benefit. The poorest fall by the wayside.
Welcome to the real world.

 

[WriterDom]

Re: I agree Laurel...

In the early '60's I was brought up in a grade school system that divided the students according to ability and taught each group to that ability. There was a dumb class, and avergae class, and a class for those who could achieve. Now I know it was denigrating perhaps for those in a lesser class, but at the same time, the rest were not held back.

we always had smart, dumb, and dumber classes. Has that changed?

 

[Andra_Jenny]

No, before we were all together, and then in Junior High, we were all together again. Unless you are talking about those who choose woodshop over band, gym over geometry, typing over languages, not to desparage any choices because I rather prefer working with wood to programming for bankers.

 

[Weird Harold]

How do you feel about Bush's mandatory testing? Here's an article that is opposed to the testing. I know it's fairly one-sided. I tend to agree with about 50% of this article. I just wanted to know your opinions on this facet of education reform.

I particularly would like to know the response of teachers. I would assume they would not be in favor of this kind of policy.
...
In any case, he'll no doubt give himself an “A.” The test of history will not be so kind."

A "history" test -- eighth grade final exam from 1895 is one thread that contains my feelings about testing, and some responses by teachers.

To summarize, I think the "standardized tests" that are currently being used aren't the right type of tests for the job. The federal government should develop and adminster tests for a nationwide minimum standard of information to be taught at each grade level. The tests should NOT be rated on a percentile basis, they should be rated on a raw score, and sschools should be rated by the percentage of students who pass/fail.

Testing isn't a cure but it is a way of insuring that all students in this country are receiving the same education at some minimum level.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

In a competitive environment,

forcing everyone to conform to a standard?

Then thesis meets thesis creates thesis?

 

[CelticsHeart]

Parental responsibilty

It is distressing to read of people who leave high school and can bearly read or write, but I have to ask -

"What the fuck were their parents doing throughout the kids schooling?"

I am mother to a 10 year old boy, and he reads with me as part of ihs home study. It can be a pain in the ass if I have a desk full of paperwork and no time, but I do it. It`s my responsibilty as his parent to ensure he gets what he needs and is "keeping up".

Further to that, is my own experience. I went to what you might call average school, but I`d like to think I walked away with a better than average education. That was due, in no small part to my own mother, pushing me gently, making sure I was "keeping up" and giving me a belief that I`d only get out as much as I took from education.

So, fair enough there are lots of differing issues to play in why education is failing children, but it seems that there are lots of parents failing children too.

Anyway, that`s just my soap-box tuppence worth,

Heart x

 

[Andra_Jenny]

If you are a parent,

trained by a system, perhaps more than one generation old, "How do you know, if it is good or bad education?"

I mean you trust, you hope,

or you homeschool. It worked for Lincoln!

 

[ChaoticLil]

but I am beginning to think we need a two-tired (sp?) system: One for those with potential and one for those who either have no potential or need to be taught to have potential. That is a hard concept after a lot of wiskey, but by way of example,

In the early '60's I was brought up in a grade school system that divided the students according to ability and taught each group to that ability. There was a dumb class, and avergae class, and a class for those who could achieve. Now I know it was denigrating perhaps for those in a lesser class, but at the same time, the rest were not held back.

But then that was the first really liberal, enlightened program once they got us all into the school and out of one classroom.

I also remember the tier system. It was abolished because of "discrimination". Instead of being taught with students of the same ability, they (the school district) opted to have "a racially mixed classroom". They didn't care if some of them didn't understand the subject matter, all that mattered to them was having the proper mix.

My step-son recently received his GED. The time that he spent in High School was for the district's benefit only. Since he was in remedial classes the school didn't think it was important to teach him; they put him in the job classes so he could work while they got paid over $100 a day for his name. After he got his GED they wrote him and told him that he could still go to school. Why would they want him after he essentially passed high school if it wasn't money related? Oh yeah, my 10 year old learning disabled son can read and write better than my 26 year old step-son.

 

[ChaoticLil]

Re: Parental responsibilty

It is distressing to read of people who leave high school and can bearly read or write, but I have to ask -

"What the fuck were their parents doing throughout the kids schooling?"

Heart x

I was there throughout my oldest son's education and my two younger ones.

My oldest is ADHD. The school would NEVER let me know that something is wrong until it was too late. I tried to get them to send a progress report every week; they promised me they would, but never did. I called his teachers, and had meeting after meeting with no results whatsoever. One counselor even told us that he had a "criminal mind" and then tore up the standarized test results (my son's IQ was tested at 150 when he was in 3rd grade. His was higher than the counselor's). I did everything I could for him, even went in front of the school board. They didn't care!

My step-son I can't really talk about because I wasn't there. I married his father when he was in high school. The only thing I know for sure I wrote in another answer.

My two youngest children have been treated quite fairly. My daughter is in gifted classes and doing quite well. My youngest son is learning disabled, but they haven't brushed him under the rug. He will be in 5th grade this year, and he is finally reading 4th grade level. He even passed his testing this year which I am VERY proud of. The schools that they are in are so much better than the ones my oldest went to; and they're in the same school district. Very strange...





(Edited for spelling)

 

[Barb Dwyer]

Originally posted by Laurel
We already NOW that our schools aren't as effective as they could be.

I NOW what you mean, Laurel!

I agree with you that money would be better spent on developing a core curriculum, hiring competent teachers and capable administrators.

However, I believe that we should test students every year as Harold suggests to see that they meet minimum standards of proficiency. With the exception of gifted athletes, in decades past, students were held back unless and until they met these requirements. When did that stop?

As others have said, it is appalling that we are failing our children by looking the other way. Because passing them through to the next higher level is the easy thing to do. God forbid we take the time to ensure they possess basic competencies.

When we are graduating teachers who cannot spell or make simple mathematical computations, is it any wonder our children are being cheated of a good education?

Not only should testing evaluate whether or not students meet or exceed minimum standards, it should also serve as a barometer of the teachers' qualifications. This would be tied to merit pay incentives. If public funding for schools is determined by test scores, then job performance evaluations and tenure should be subject to the same measurements.

 

[Texan]

Standardized Testing

This is an interesting issue. Five years ago, when Dole was running against Clinton, the Democrats were in favor of a national standardized test, and the Republicans were against it. The Republicans wanted to eliminate the Department of Education, and turn education completely over to states. This was one of the issues that Clinton creamed Dole on.

Now that Bush has taken a position in favor of national standardized testing to evaluate the performance of schools and teachers, many (not all) Democrats have changed their position on the issue.

These tests are NOT for evaluating the individual student. Yes, parents get the results, which show the students performance, relative to others who took the test, but the individual results are not used for passing, failing, or grading students. The results are used to evaluate the schools and the teachers.

Teachers and teacher’s unions are the ones who are fighting efforts to test students. Of course they are fighting standardized testing. The testing of students is the only way we have of evaluating the teachers. Teacher’s unions are BIG supporters of the Democratic Party. Democratic politicians who are fighting nationalized testing have no moral ground to stand on. The article posted by lavender was written by Arianna Huffington. She is one of the most “left-wing” political pundits you can find. (lavender, I noticed that you said you only agree with about 50% of the article.) In ’96, Arianna was Al Frankin’s side-kick covering the political conventions for Comedy Central. (Not a lot of credibility there….sorry.)

Finally, I live in Texas, and we have had standardized testing for around twelve years. The TAAS test used here in Texas is the model Bush has in his mind when he proposes the idea. Sure the teachers “teach to the test”. I think that is fantastic!!! At least it is a guarantee that the basics are being taught to my kids. The schools here (I live in a good school district) achieve near 100% passing grades on the TAAS test. The kids have PLENTY of time for all the other things that kids should get to do in school, like art, music, athletics and even recess. School districts that do poorly on the TAAS test get extra money and outside help in an effort to improve the school. I guess you could say that schools that do well on the TAAS test get a reward. The school district becomes a place where people want to live. Therefore, property values go up, and the tax base increases. As a result, the school district has more money to spend on EDUCATION.

 

[morninggirl5]

Re: Re: I agree Laurel...

we always had smart, dumb, and dumber classes. Has that changed?

Ability grouping is still used in many classes. The problem with ability grouping as it was used previously was that students were placed in the "snails" and there was no way to move out of the snails. If anyone is interested, I'll be happy to send you a copy of one of the classic research studies done in this area. It was recently republished by the Harvard Educational Review. The author observed one class of African American children who started Kindergarten in 1967 and followed them through second grade. And those of you who want ability grouping will be happy to hear that those who were placed at Table 1 remained there until second grade. They were the smart kids. Those kids at Table 2 and 3 remained in their "appropriate" levels as well. Unfortunately, the determination of what "ability" each student had was made by the eighth day of school, based on the following factors: physical appearance of the child, quality and quantity of clothing worn to school, types of interaction with the teacher, use of "school" language, family economic status make up.

Basically, two thirds of the students in that class never had a chance to achieve. I have several other studies that show that one of the critical determinants in children not learning is their placement in a category where they aren't expected to learn. Ability grouping gives too many "outs" for parents, teachers, and students.

One "reform" movement that has been deemed successful occurred in the Chicago school system during the 90's. The first component that was seen as key in this movement was changing the attitudes of parents and teachers about students and their potential. In an initial survery 31% of the teachers indicated that many of their students were not capable of learning the material they were supposed to teach. Is it any suprise then that those students weren't learning?

Other teachers will probably be ready to crucify me for this, but if you don't believe that you can teach every student, then you need to find a new job. Far too many teachers and parents have allowed themselves to "buy into" the argument that our schools are horrible and failing. They have come to expect failure and the Pygmalion principle is in full effect.

 

[cymbidia]

long-ass boring thread addition: beware

As some of you may know, I am a classroom teacher. For now, I’m home with a young son; when he is ready to go to school full days, I’ll return to teaching. However, I taught 7/8th grade science and sex ed for years in a very small, very upper-income, very liberal school district, the same small town in which i live.

Money might be better spent on developing a core curriculum, hiring competent teachers and capable administrators.

True enough but how do we get people in disparate places to agree to that core curriculum? For example, I am currently living in socially and politically conservative eastern Washington but will return in another year to the progressive-in-all-ways San Francisco bay area. I know that my 7th grade daughter got less than 10 minutes worth of information about evolution in her science class this past year. When I taught science to 7th graders, I taught it as an entire 8-week unit. Who is right, the state of WA or the state of CA? Who has the proper core curriculum in this single issue? Of course you understand that there are many many issues just like this one.

I’ll not argue with the raging need for hiring “competent teachers” and “capable administrators”. It makes to sick to see kids shortchanged year after year by people who are supposed to be teaching them but who are, in reality, not. It infuriates me. It astounds me that we, as a society, would allow it to continue. As a parent I know who my kids’ teachers are and if I don’t like them or think they’re going to be lazy, I raise hell until my kid gets a good teacher. Some kid has to have the bad teacher then, I know, and I feel bad for them, but it’s not going to be my kid with a poor teacher. No way.

However, I believe that we should test students every year as Harold suggests to see that they meet minimum standards of proficiency. With the exception of gifted athletes, in decades past, students were held back unless and until they met these requirements. When did that stop?

For as long as I’ve been teaching, at the middle school level, it has been up to the parents as to whether the kid should actually be held back. As teachers, we can flunk kids all day long if they deserve it but if the parent says, “Nope, my kid is going on to the next grade,” we have no recourse but to pass the kid on.

Social stigma, you know. It’s traumatizing in the middle grades to be held back, to be that much older than the other kids.

Do people really believe that trash? Do they ever stop to think how traumatizing it is for a kid who cannot do the work to get passed on and be expected to do more sophisticated schoolwork? Plus, every kid knows about the abilities of every other kid; whom are we trying to protect here? I’ve seen too many of these “passed on” kids begin bullying others and/or going toward really serious trouble (sex, drugs, and rock n’ roll, people) at a too-young age.

So – hell yeh. Test. Make the tests have some teeth, though. If the kids can’t do the work, don’t pass ‘em on. Period. Make their parents come to school with them one day a week, or one evening a week. Too many of the parents don’t have a clue what their kids are (or are not) doing in school. You’re not going to hear too many teachers nay saying these ideas.

When we are graduating teachers who cannot spell or make simple mathematical computations, is it any wonder our children are being cheated of a good education?

Oh yes, good idea, tighten up those teaching requirements. Give us more money before you do, though, cuz there’s a pretty severe shortage of teachers as it is. You wonder why? We work our butts off many many many many more hours a week than most comparably educated professionals for a fraction of the pay and a miniscule amount of the respect.

Sure, tighten the requirements up. I’d love to work with colleagues who are as committed and informed and ardent about their job as I am. You’ll get them if you tighten the requirements up AND pay us more money for doing the job. Make it a competitive job, a job that people want and fight for. Then you’ll get good teachers.

Not only should testing evaluate whether or not students meet or exceed minimum standards, it should also serve as a barometer of the teachers' qualifications. This would be tied to merit pay incentives. If test scores determine public funding for schools, then job performance evaluations and tenure should be subject to the same measurements.

I say get rid of the unions.
Get rid of tenure as a resting place of the feeble and unable.
Test kids.
Test teachers.
Test administrators.

Whoever can’t perform to minimum standards is held back or sent for more training or dismissed.

Now, may I please be the one to decide what the standards are for the entire United States? No? Who will decide such a thing? Individual states, so they can ignore evolution in WA while I teach it thoroughly in CA? No? Well, who decides what?

Anyone?

And, btw, we’ve discussed such matters in depth in the past. Here are a couple threads for you to have a look at if you’re interested:
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=32040&highlight=teaching+students

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=32113&highlight=teaching+students

 

[Laurel]

I agree with you that money would be better spent on developing a core curriculum, hiring competent teachers and capable administrators.

However, I believe that we should test students every year as Harold suggests to see that they meet minimum standards of proficiency. With the exception of gifted athletes, in decades past, students were held back unless and until they met these requirements. When did that stop?

I agree. Testing is a necessary part of the process. However, the idea of testing as some magic panacea for the problems in public education is absurd.

I agree with Cymbidia about teacher's tenure. I do think it can result in incompetent teachers that are nearly impossible to remove. However, if you remove the benefits of tenure, I think you need to increase teacher salary to a level that will attract qualified applicants. Frankly, with what elementary through high school teachers are paid, I can't understand why any bright, talented, outgoing individual would want to go into teaching. Why not take those same skills into sales or a customer relations field and make twice the money?

 

[cymbidia]

Re: Re: Re: I agree Laurel...

Other teachers will probably be ready to crucify me for this, but if you don't believe that you can teach every student, then you need to find a new job.

Sorry but no.

Here's something on this subject that i wrote and posted here a couple months ago:

Okay. Dammit. Discounting those relatively few teachers who are putting in their time until they can collect that huge pension and those that got into the teaching gig cuz they thought it was easy money, the rest of us are highly educated, incredibly skilled, extraordinarily caring and competent people.

We earn a pittance of what comparably educated people earn. We work WAY longer hours than the much-ballyhooed 9-3 workday. During those long summers "off" we're attending workshops and taking state-mandated classes in order to keep our credentials current, not to mention being physically at school after the students leave for the summer and before they come back in the fall. We organize our lesson plans in the summer, discarding that which didn't work and trying like hell to find new and interesting ways to present the material our school boards and principals just told us we'd have to teach in the fall.

During the school year, teachers like me, teachers at the middle school level, counsel girls who just got their period for the first time and talk to them about how to change napkins and what to do with them when they're ready to be discarded. We try to work the new kid who speaks no English into our mid-quarter science class, oh by the way, test next Tuesday and no, we don't have enough microscopes to go around, do we?, you'll have to share with Juan and Kimmy who don't want to share with the new kid. We deal with parents who want to know why Johnny got a "D" on his report card and don't i have to give them some warning before giving him a grade like that? (Why yes, that's why i send progress reports home weekly beginning the second week of classes, a thing you know cuz you've been signing them. Ohhhh, you never saw one let along signed it? Hmm, maybe we'd better get Johnny in here...) We deal with sniffles and kids that come to school hungry and kids who have burn scars from that bad uncle of theirs. We deal with mothers who drink too much and can't make it to school plays, so the kid does her best, shamefaced and sad.

We deal with endless requests to serve on this committee or that one. We have weekly and monthly Faculty meetings and club meetings at which we are the advisor. We sell magazines to all our relatives every year to try to send every 6th grader in the school to camp, cuz we know there's kids whose families don't have the money.

Then there's OUR families and the time, energy, love, respect, presence they need from us.

On top of all this, we are teaching our subject. Mine happens to be science, in a specific yearly rotation (astronomy, meteorology, geology, evolution, microbiology, animal biology, plant biology). I teach this stuff with wit and verve and high fucking expectations of every student. I thread science through the hormones popping off every which way in every one of my classes, periods off to see some assembly about the dangers of drugs, weeks off to DisneyWorld with parents, and the hours Ivy spends staring listlessly out the window wondering why Ryan doesn't like her anymore.

And i LOVE what i do. If they didn't pay me, that'd be okay; i'd still do it. I'm a damn good teacher and i *know*, right down to the tips of my toes, that there are a bunch of people out there in the world that see the place, their lives, and their opportunities, differently... with more hope and a broader palette of choices... because of me.

Not just anyone could do the job either. It takes a tough, smart, flexible, caring, organized, flame-retardant, no-bullshit kinda person to be a good, long-lasting classroom teacher at any level.

So you go ahead and knock the system all you want but stay the hell away from teachers. We're not in it for the money, none of us. We're not in it cuz we're gonna be famous. We're in it cuz it's a fucking calling and cuz we HAVE to teach. Most of us, anyway.

~~~~~
I am a very skilled, very effective, very good teacher. I'm not being immodest; it's true.

However, when kids who cannot perform to a basic level of competence in reading, for example, are tossed into my classes, or kids who do not speak English, or kids who come from transient familes (so the kid has huge holes in her education), then no, i cannot and will not spend the time with those few to the detriment of the many others.

Fuck the "if you can't teach them all then you should get into another line of work" attitude. Try teaching what i teach (science) to the kids i teach (14 year olds) in the numbers i teach (six classes of at least 30 students each = 180 students a day) and THEN tell me that you can teach every single one of them adequately and without failing a single kid.

It's probably much easier to be smug and self-righteous when you have 22 kids a day and they're all 8 years old.