"To have dignity you must have no pride."

[shereads]

A friend's 90-year-old Cuban great-aunt gave him that advice when he was telling her about his struggles at work with an incompetent, credit-stealing boss.

I've been pondering it. So far, it's helped me avoid two unwinnable arguments at the office, by saying, "You've given me something to think about." It felt awful at the time, like that thing from "Alien" was trying to eat its way out of my esophagus. (I was right, dammit!) But I slept better that night than I ever do after a serious confrontation.

Your thoughts: What's the difference between dignity and pride? Can you have both?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Dignity is quiet.

Proud talks too much.

(BlackShanglan taught me the difference )

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think dignity is the better by-product of pride. I'm not sure one can have the former, meaningfully, without the latter.

 

[shereads]

Dignity is quiet.

Proud talks too much.

Would you expand on that?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Would you expand on that?

I would but my dignity prevents it.

 

[shereads]

I think dignity is the better by-product of pride. I'm not sure one can have the former, meaningfully, without the latter.

I think the stomach-ache I always have after an argument - even the ones I win - has something to do with having sacrificed dignity - mine, theirs - to assuage my pride.

Dignity can walk away without winning the point. Pride wants to stay and fight.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by shereads
I think the stomach-ache I always have after an argument - even the ones I win - has something to do with having sacrificed dignity - mine, theirs - to assuage my pride.

Dignity can walk away without winning the point. Pride wants to stay and fight.

And, yet, one can be too proud to contest a thing. I'm not sure we're talking about two different things, in this case.

 

[shereads]

And, yet, one can be too proud to contest a thing. I'm not sure we're talking about two different things, in this case.

I'm right about this, dammit!

"I have people skills, you stupid sons of bitches!"
~ sales rep justifying his job to consultants in "Office Space"

 

[shereads]

Maybe it loses something in the translation from Spanish. Maybe she said something more like, "To have dignity you must have humility." Humility being the opposite of pride, in that context.

 

[carsonshepherd]

I think the stomach-ache I always have after an argument - even the ones I win - has something to do with having sacrificed dignity - mine, theirs - to assuage my pride.

Dignity can walk away without winning the point. Pride wants to stay and fight.

The stomachache is swallowed pride.

 

[LadyJeanne]

Maybe it loses something in the translation from Spanish. Maybe she said something more like, "To have dignity you must have humility." Humility being the opposite of pride, in that context.

Humility prevents us from sacrificing our dignity for our pride.

 

[shereads]

The stomachache is swallowed pride.

I think the opposite: When I swallowed my pride and walked away from a battle at work last week, I felt better than I would have if I'd insisted on winning a concession.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Dignity doesn't care about correctness, winning, or whatnot. It's walking away with the participants in good spirits and partially the greedy desire to appear better in the eyes of said participants.

In non-babble, it's the avoidance of being a giant prat.

Pride on the other hand wants to win an argument, because it started it. It will never apologize for an outburst, never admit an error, and use all duplicitous methods to win regardless of whether it conforms to the original motivation of being right.

In non-babble, it's the act of being a giant prat.

Thus, pick dignity, because it's easier to apologize for and you spend less hours afterwards reviewing the points you wanted to make before the hibachi incident.

 

[Seattle Zack]

Why is it so important to "win" an argument? Maybe that's what you should be asking. Arguments are rarely "won," in the sense that you convert another to your point of view. Generally, they devolve to an emotional level, where nothing can be gained by continuing.

Consider a truck-driving Idaho redneck and a latte-sipping Seattle liberal debating gun control. (Now, I just picked this as an example. Personally, I'm a liberatarian (small l). I'm pro-drugs and pro-guns. I believe in personal freedom and personal responsibility. So my beliefs are neither here nor there.)

No argument in the world will ever get the redneck to declare, "Well, damn my eyes! I see now. I'll turn in my 12 assault rifles and the .50-caliber machine gun in my barn over to the authorities tomorrow!" Likewise, even the best articulated debate in the world won't convince the liberal to go purchase a 9-mm Glock and a Remington over-under pump for personal protection the next day.

No. Because the argument devolves into emotion. The redneck loves his guns, because they make things blow up. The liberal hates them, because he feels they take an intolerable toll on society. Love and hate. That's an unwinnable argument, on either side.

Like my dad said, "Never bring up religion or politics at a cocktail party." I've often heard the expression, "swallow your pride," and I hated it -- I used to argue forever, knowing that I was right. Any more, I understand that I'm not going to change anyone's mind on certain subjects ... and the best thing about beating your head against a brick wall? It feels damn good when you stop.

The dictionary defines dignity as "the quality of being worthy of esteem or respect." Pride is defined as "a feeling of self-respect and personal worth." I don't see them as being mutually exclusive.

 

[amicus]

Interesting...

"Pride: "...A high opinion of one's own dignity..." (random house)

"Dignity: "...to honor, enoble..."

"...Your thoughts: What's the difference between dignity and pride? Can you have both?..."

So often, words are defined in a social setting and under certain circumstances, such as winning an argument.

Being one who accepts that words have real meanings, verbal descriptions of extisting aspects of reality, or emotions, I tend to look to the root of the word and try discover why we have such a word and what it really means.

Unfortunately, these two words, 'pride and dignity' are loosely defined, at least in the dictionary I use, and a bit vague, not precise at all.

Pride, as a word, seems to be a bit tainted as the word is often used to describe a demeaning characteristic of a person.

Dignity is again often used in a social setting and presented without an objective definition.

Neither can be divorced from words such as value, moral, right and wrong.

In the best definition, pride would be that feeling that arises upon the successful completion of a chosen goal. But that goal must have objective value and it must be a moral one.

Dignity, would then, I think, be that state of mind, reflected by carriage, body posture and acceptance within a community, of a certain peace with one's own values and accomplishments.

Again, objective and moral, as there can be neither pride nor dignity in a criminal or immoral act.

Doncha just love words!

amicus...






__________________

 

[neonlyte]

Humility prevents us from sacrificing our dignity for our pride.

Works for me.

To have dignity you must have humility.

I'm sure the translation should be 'humility' and not 'pride', though to be 'humble' is not widely regarded as an endearing trait, in our times.

 

[brightlyiburn]

Interesting...

"Pride: "...A high opinion of one's own dignity..." (random house)

"Dignity: "...to honor, enoble..."

"...Your thoughts: What's the difference between dignity and pride? Can you have both?..."

So often, words are defined in a social setting and under certain circumstances, such as winning an argument.

Being one who accepts that words have real meanings, verbal descriptions of extisting aspects of reality, or emotions, I tend to look to the root of the word and try discover why we have such a word and what it really means.

Unfortunately, these two words, 'pride and dignity' are loosely defined, at least in the dictionary I use, and a bit vague, not precise at all.

Pride, as a word, seems to be a bit tainted as the word is often used to describe a demeaning characteristic of a person.

Dignity is again often used in a social setting and presented without an objective definition.

Neither can be divorced from words such as value, moral, right and wrong.

In the best definition, pride would be that feeling that arises upon the successful completion of a chosen goal. But that goal must have objective value and it must be a moral one.

Dignity, would then, I think, be that state of mind, reflected by carriage, body posture and acceptance within a community, of a certain peace with one's own values and accomplishments.

Again, objective and moral, as there can be neither pride nor dignity in a criminal or immoral act.

Doncha just love words!

amicus...






__________________

Dude! I think I actually agree with him for once...
I have never thought of being prideful as a bad thing. Sometimes, when people are determined to rob you of your dignity, pride is what reminds you that they can't if you don't let them. And while you may think it's dignified to back down from an argument, it can be the sign of cowardly acceptance.
For example, to back down from an argument with a friend or friends who treat you badly, in the deluded idea that you are being dignified, is really just being afraid to break away from these people who are no good for you. That isn't dignity, it's stupid.

 

[Erlikkhan]

I usually say something like "I'm too dignified to tell you what a fucking jerk you are being and too proud to stoop to the level of an asshole."

Dignified and proud!

 

[NoJo]

'pride' is often used in a context where it pretty much means 'dignity'.

But dignity is more to do with maintaining moral and ethical behaviour -- propriety.

 

[SadieRose]

You Can Be Proud Without Being Loud

Dignity is quiet.

Proud talks too much.

You can be proud of your achievements without boasting about them. Pride can fill your chest until you feel it's about to burst but on the outside no one can see that.

Dignity is maintaining your composure when all around you are trying to make you lose it.

Pride is knowing that something you have done is right and nothing but nothing will take that away from you.

xx. Sadie

 

[Guest]

Sher, all I know is that you've learned a valuable lesson. I don't care for the words and labels, though I'm glad someone brought up humility.

With people I love I give up what it takes, always works. I weigh the worth of it, the giving up, and keeping the love matters most. In your case with co-workers or whomever, I'm not sure what you'd weigh, peace of mind?

I take very little pride in anything so the word matters naught to me. I'm not being humble, it's just that outside of writing so many other things (experience, people) enter into what I might accomplish that I can't see how I should feel proud.

On the other hand, I realize that fear of making mistakes (saying or doing the wrong thing) comes from pride. That's where humility is needed, to just go ahead and try.

Perdita

 

[NoJo]

When my parents fought, my father, who always liked to have the last word, would bellow: "LEAST SAID SOONEST FUCKING MENDED".

My Russian Mum, who didn't understand the nuances of English too well, would say quietly, "that's right, because you should mend your ways."

Only now, many years later do I realize that this non sequitur was actually my mother being a genius. She was the only person who could win an arguement against my father.

 

[cantdog]

And, yet, one can be too proud to contest a thing. I'm not sure we're talking about two different things, in this case.

Joe's decided to define the words to suit himself again, shereads. Say, "Yes, Joe." He is wicked fond of his definitions.

Meanwhile, I like the consensus the four of you (including Shanglan and the aged Cuban relative) have developed here. Despite reinventing the line between the two concepts, you have really hit an important lesson about life. Much of the time, it is predefined categories which mask these truths, and a new cleavage term which reveals them.

Joe, a wise man allows these conversations to develop, elicits the meaning behind the mere words, and tries himself to see the new wisdom, or to point out the flaw if it's going astray. Stepping back and disallowing certain words to be used to talk about a subject will only mean you receive fewer and fewer such confidences-- a net loss of possible wisdom for you.

Redefine at leisure after the testimony, codify to suit yourself. That's fine. But the moment of revelation is delicate.

cantdog

 

[Kassiana]

My father always said that you needed to pick your battles. Despite my rather confrontational attitude on here at times (what, Kass? No, never!), I almost never fight about religion or politics in real life, and I do try to avoid most political fights even on the 'Net because people inevitably miss the points I try to make. I just had an argument two days ago, for example, with someone who twisted my words out of all recognition because his emotional attachment to his political belief was stronger than his respect for me and what I was saying. I dropped it because he wouldn't stop saying I supported politically immoral things, even when I clarified my position for him over and over again.

Now, that said, there are battles worth fighting. Anyone trying to restrict your civil rights should be fought full out. But most real-life fights aren't on that level of importance and should be dropped with an "agree to disagree" rather than continued till both of you are red in the face and hate each other.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Sorry I said anything.