To dream or not to dream, that... etc

[gauchecritic]

For the second time this month I've come across an intriguing idea in my casual reading. This second example is from a novel (I can't remember where the first time was that I read it.) It's to do with dreaming. The first time made mere mention of it and got me thinking about why it would relate to REM sleep, in fact logicaly dismissing REM sleep as having any connection at all to do with dreaming.

As I understand it dreams occur during the 'waking cycle' of sleep. As we move towards consiousness and become aware of surroundings this is when we begin dreaming. I guess that, as animals, we can't afford to be unconscious for lengthy periods so we move in and out of unconsciousness as we sleep.

As I've said, the upswing of the cycle allows us to become 'aware' of our surroundings even if not fully awake and this is how and why we dream, our brains begin sorting out external stimulus but without using that part of the brain which makes sensible patterns.

This 'new' thing that I've read twice recently says that we don't actually dream, only that we remember dreaming. That is to say our dreams are instantaneous. They are laid down in one instant and it is our conscious selves that give them order.

The second instance went a step further which ties into my own ideas, as stated, that we rise from sleep to listen for externalities. The second instance says that when we incorporate the alarm clock or the dog barking or our name being called, that here is where we dream. That the alarm clock lays down our entire dream in one go and we build the dream backwards from there.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[kendo1]

Zzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Munachi]

hm, interesting. i sometimes fall asleep in class and every now and then wake up remembering lengthy dreams, which make me worry how long i have been sleeping and if anyone noticed. what you say could mean that maybe i really only slept a few seconds so no one noticed, and my brain just made up a long dream afterwards... *phew* ... but anyway, i don't understand enough of dreaming to say anything more about this, i guess.

 

[TheEarl]

It's one of the great questions of philosophy, isn't it? How much of what we perceive is reality and how much is our brain?

Personally, I think that theory makes some sense, as it explains 'premonition' dreams where the dream provides the set-up for a real-life sound before it occurs. However, what happens to the theory of dreams being the mind's way of processing data learned over the day?

The Earl

 

[The_Darkness]

The real mind job is when you dream about dreaming or have continuous dreams, almost serialized. I had a small straight of that during Chemistry my first semester at college.....the dream kept picking back up where it left off the lecture before.

 

[past_perfect]

That is an interesting theory. Obviously the time component (compressed/dilated) is very difficult to assess, if there are no external measures for comparison - so a narrative appearing "in a flash" or instantaneous as you put it, sounds very possible too. However, that would not invalidate the common conception that we might have dreamt something before that which we managed to commit to memory or call up as a memory.

I have always been fascinated by dreaming and its diverse facets, and found this particularly interesting:

Lucid Dreaming

Always wanted to delve more into this, but never found the right time to do it...

 

[Krinein]

As I've said, the upswing of the cycle allows us to become 'aware' of our surroundings even if not fully awake and this is how and why we dream, our brains begin sorting out external stimulus but without using that part of the brain which makes sensible patterns.

In this particular instance, I'm not sure that I agree that our brains don't use sensible patterns since a symbol would contain a certain amount of logic and require a certain amount or organization on our brains part. Similarly, dreams are a string of symbols therefore they form a pattern that might be rendered sensible to the dreamer (within the dream itself or perhaps during the process of waking).

This 'new' thing that I've read twice recently says that we don't actually dream, only that we remember dreaming.

It's not dissimilar to certain quantum theories. Can we truly know that we dream if we cannot observe it? Surely,the act of remembering has some affect.

...we rise from sleep to listen for externalities. The second instance says that when we incorporate the alarm clock or the dog barking or our name being called, that here is where we dream. That the alarm clock lays down our entire dream in one go and we build the dream backwards from there.

Any thoughts on this?

I can understand that in moving from an unconscious to conscious state, our mind would try to reach for externalities if only to refamiliarize itself with that which we deem reality in order to function in an environment that is itself patterned and organized. My first thought is that we reset ourselves every time we wake up, just as a computer resets its functions when we turn it on, so in this case the alarm clock or dog barking serve as our 'on' button, the dreams/symbols serving as our power up ... whether or not this constitutes an instantaneous narrative is an intriguing idea and past-perfect brings up some fascinating points.

 

[gauchecritic]

that would not invalidate the common conception that we might have dreamt something before that which we managed to commit to memory or call up as a memory.

Lucid Dreaming

Thanks for that past, a very interesting read (so far) bookmarking as we speak.

Always wanted to delve more into this, but never found the right time to do it...

...and thanks for this procrastination excuse which I shall use from now on. Not the right time.

Well, surprise surprise, Hobson and McCarley seem to validate many of my own thoughts about dreaming and must therefore be correct.

They seem to refute Freudian analysys and cause (The) and apparently dismiss symbology (krinein)

Resetting ourselves, as krin suggests is also included in the H&M theory which, (as if by magic rather than co-incidence) answers my puzzlement over REM sleep. Hobson speculates a POST test as we wake. A pre-boot in readiness for waking up.

I have long suspected that (like H&M) dreams are a physiological response rather than a psychological creation. I realised many years ago that being pulled awake from a dream or nightmare was a direct result of physical discomfort. Running through treacle was legs wrapped in sheets, not being able to reach someone in danger was pins and needles in arm and waking with an erection, more often than not was and is a physical reaction caused by the need to urinate.

And none of this (so far) is in opposition to the theory of instant dreaming.

For me this theory is nice (old definition) even though past-perfect's link seems to bolster the idea that dreams can or do occur over time. But here we are talking about memories of memories and I am more than willing to use occams razor to pair it down to the simpler solution (even though it's a more complex method) of instantaneous dreaming.

And if I may speculate a little more, I mentioned that sleep occurs in cycles and so it's possible that dreams before waking (hours before) can also be laid down instantaneously as a memory of a previous waking cycle.

Note for The.

However, what happens to the theory of dreams being the mind's way of processing data learned over the day?

The 'day's events' thing it seems is a Freudian concept founded on limited physiological evidence. As far as he (and biology of the time) knew, neurons could only be "excitatory" (active) since then it's been discovered that there are also "inhibitive" neurons (calming) that damp down activity and so 'continuous ' thinking is a somewhat false precept.
From this I surmise, almost complete inactivity whilst asleep. (I could be and am very willing to be proved wrong)

 

[shereads]

I've had epic-length dreams that I'd swear took hours to play out, if not for the fact that the whole thing took place during an accidental 5-minute nap. The sensation of time having passed is even more compelling when the dream is highly emotional, terrifying, or physically exhausting.

It's amazing what our brains can do when they don't know we're watching. In an instant, mine has contrived and produced an intricate plotline connecting Mt. Vesuvius, the late Ray Charles and the pastry I wanted but didn't have for breakfast the day before. Yet I lose my car keys at least once a week. Go figure.

----

Seriously:

Is there a difference between a dream and a memory of a dream? Either way, it's an illusion pieced together from fragments of memories.

But why? What's it for?

Are dreams a way of sorting the files? Or more like a snow-globe turned upside down and shaken? If the images and sensations are random, as some people theorize, then where do the emotions enter in? Why is there sometimes a sense that if we understood the code, we'd learn something important?

And if dreams take place in an instant, why do people who talk in their sleep sometimes go on and on until you wake them up?

 

[shereads]

I dreamed that I killed this thread.