Time to be the lightning rod and make a statement many will vehemently disagree with

[rambling man]

George W. Bush is a good man who is doing a good job as President....hear me out on this one...

He made some mistakes...he shoud have just let the senate re-reject the Kyoto treaty instead of taking the blame himself..people forgive 100 people easier than one (it was voted down 96-0 last time..there is no support for it at all)

He handled the spy plane incident well, not being too overbearing but not kowtowing. We got what we wanted and stayed out of a corner.

He picks the right people and lets them do their jobs. He is so much like Truman in this regard andhistory has liked Truman for many of the same attributes Bush has

Bush has had a lot of messes to clean up since being president that were left over from the clinton years, such as the energy and economy

He has also done something Clinton never did, give the US a definite foreign policy..assertive and not always reactive..whether they like it or not, other countries know what we want to do and that means a less ambiguous world. Clinton's foreign policy was disastrous..remember bombing the pill factory?

I disagree with several of the things he proposes but at least he is straightforward and says what he wants instead of shifting all over the place.

And I like him for his malapropisms...he seems more human,

 

[Andra_Jenny]

The buck stops in his office. I'm damn glad he took it on his shoulders. Shows he'll stand up to the world. Shows he'll stand up for us.

So I vehemently disagree with you.

 

[rambling man]

good point...it did show strength of character to save the senate and to make a statement about himself...he is a breath of fresh air after 8 years of dissembling and debating the meaning of "is"

 

[morninggirl5]

How about someone who will agree with you? I'm waiting to see what happens with education though. (Texan this is your chance to jump in with the Texas model again)

 

[Texan]

How about someone who will agree with you? I'm waiting to see what happens with education though. (Texan this is your chance to jump in with the Texas model again)

morninggirl, I appreciate the invitation, but I have been trying to stay out of the political debates. While I read most of them, and I can't find a damn thing in ramblingman's post here that I disagree with, I just got tired of futile efforts.

I enjoyed debating in college. I competed on a national level, and was pretty decent at it. The difference here, is that there are no judges to penalize improper or unfair debate techniques. There is absolutely no way to win or lose a debate here. The more articulate and rational a poster is, the more irrational and derisive the oposition becomes.

I understand that many people here enjoy and (need) this forum for expressing their political opinions. I have other forums IRL that satisfy that need. I do, however, reserve the right to stick my two cents in where I want to. When I quit posting to the political threads, I said in a post, that it was because I had begun to be as disrespectful to others as they were being to me. I can ignore others when they become disrespectful, but I cannot ignore that trait in myself.

 

[Weevil]

I understand that many people here enjoy and (need) this forum for expressing their political opinions. I have other forums IRL that satisfy that need. I do, however, reserve the right to stick my two cents in where I want to. When I quit posting to the political threads, I said in a post, that it was because I had begun to be as disrespectful to others as they were being to me. I can ignore others when they become disrespectful, but I cannot ignore that trait in myself.

I'm kind of with Tex here. Oh sure he thinks that he was ripped in poor taste and his arguments were smiles and sunshine but the political threads have become boring and sad. Just people lining up to take ridiculous shots at each other with no legitimate resolution.

Oh occasionally we'll rip into a clearly ridiculous post but throwing opinions at each other isn't much fun any more.

 

[morninggirl5]

morninggirl, I appreciate the invitation, but I have been trying to stay out of the political debates. While I read most of them, and I can't find a damn thing in ramblingman's post here that I disagree with, I just got tired of futile efforts.

I understand your point completely. I tend to bite my tongue quite a bit. The education ones are where I can't manage to steer clear.

I did do some research after you mentioned TAAS. The Texas teachers I had heard from had been pretty negative, but based on the research, it's much better than what we currently have in Georgia.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Apathy

Our polititians count on it, thrive on, take more freedom from our lives with it. Hate to see it crop up here. I will continue to pound home my world view even if I am the last lunatic in the park to climb down off of my soapbox. Nothing personal.

 

[Laurel]

I think the problem is that the debates on specific issues all too quickly turn into "Reagan was a Criminal!" and "Clinton got blowjobs from Interns!" and other random non-sequiter attacks. They may start out as an in-depth discussion of the issue, but they quickly degenerate into a weird party-line, us vs. them, rah rah go team smearfest. This happens not just here, but in many places on the web and in RL discussion as well.

It's hard. Like many here, I have very definite opinions on some issues, and I have very definite opinions on some politicians. When you feel strongly about something, it's hard to stay rational sometimes.

I've been feeling pretty hopeless lately. The conservative Supreme Court is going to consider the COPA thingy next spring, and all analysts say that it will get the go-ahead. This will mean that sites like ours will have to require a credit card from users to enter. Not all of our adult users have credit cards, and I think that the majority of those who do will not feel comfortable giving the number to us to gain access. This means that after all the hard work we've put into Lit, we're going to lose a lot of you. It just doesn't seem fair.

I put a lot of time and effort into supporting organizations that support free speech. We put a lot of time and effort into making Literotica a fun place to be. But all that time and effort was wasted.

We'll find a way to stay free of credit card restrictions, I'm sure, but it's just really disappointing to see the US become more pro-censorship at the same time that other places in the world are opening up. It's not just the politicians, either...I get into arguments with people who seem to believe that the government has the right and responsibility to control what we can say, what we can read...it's for "our own good" that government keeps us away from "filth" and "the undesirable". It makes my teeth grind just thinking about it.

Lately, there have been a rash of arrests and prosecutions on "obscenity" charges for activities like bukkake and stories with underage characters. George W. Bush is talking about making "morality training" a part of public school education. And all this happens with our consent. No one protests. No one cares.

So I guess I'm not just disillusioned with politics - I'm disillusioned with America and Americans. No one believes in freedom anymore. It's all lip service. We all sing patriotic songs and shake our fists against China & Russia at the same time we advocate censorship "for our own good". It's all bullshit. When the majority of citizens of a country no longer care, the case is closed.

And that's why I have a hard time getting excited about political discussion anymore. It's a lost cause. People are fucking sheep. I'm ashamed of us. I really am.

 

[morninggirl5]

Lately, there have been a rash of arrests and prosecutions on "obscenity" charges for activities like bukkake and stories with underage characters. George W. Bush is talking about making "morality training" a part of public school education. And all this happens with our consent. No one protests. No one cares.

Character education is a requirement in Georgia Public Schools. When the topic was brought up in a class of educators (teachers are supposed to be liberal, right?) I was the only person in that class that was against the inclusion of character ed in our classrooms. The main arguement of the majority (and I was the only one who identified themselves as conservative) was that since the parents aren't going to teach their kids morals the schools have to.

In some ways, I believe the majority of Americans have begun to take their rights for granted and allowed themselves to believe that many of our privileges are rights and our responsibilities belong to our government. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure its found working towards a goal and not endlessly debating it.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

First of all, you are giving up on the Supreme Court too soon.
Second of all, if you are playing the losing hand, you change strategy.
Thirdly. I need your blind support of the second amendment.
Sometimes Freedom must be fought for.
Would you just sigh and accept slavery.
NO.

I am Sparticus!

 

[WriterDom]

I think the attacks on Bush's intelligence are petty and haven't paid any dividends to the Democratic cause. If anything they helped by lowering expectations during the debates. He may be dyslectic, but many of us are. Sure, Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell could smoke his ass any day in trivial pursuit. But he was smart enough to hire them. Even though, according to the NAACP they show a nearly canine devotion to the Confederacy.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I think that a few Democrats are in denial about the new failure of tried and true tactics. America is more invested and the internet provides a wider range of news options. The newspapers have switched to sex and scandals and the baby boom generation is maturing.

A lot of us have been through a lot of changes since the dawn of the 60's. Politics are cyclical, and you may begin to see a pronounced swing back to the right. But us conservatives all have credit cards, so we will take care of Laurel and Manu and do what we can to protect free speech.

Hell, even conservatives are for that Laurel. You are not surrounded by enemies. Unless you start telling rural people about conservation and then we scrunch up our faces and go, "Huh?"

 

[scylis]

People are fucking sheep. I'm ashamed of us. I really am.

you say that like it's a BAD thing, Laurel!





why is everybody looking at me funny all of the sudden?

 

[*Lazer*]

I for one am tired of the political things here on the board. I am bored with watching a few screamers dominate the discussion. I prefer to work in real life for real changes and ignore the weirdos. I find it fascinating that Mr Bush is going to now legislate morality when his own is so questionable. Regardless of your political leanings it is imperative that we watch this administration closely in reference to "web laws".

 

[p_p_man]

I enjoyed debating in college. The difference here, is that there are no judges to penalize improper or unfair debate techniques. There is absolutely no way to win or lose a debate here. The more articulate and rational a poster is, the more irrational and derisive the oposition becomes.

This is the problem with an open Bulletin Board and why so many people feel hurt or feel that they are being treated disrespectfully when they enter one. It is the way a Bulletin Board is viewed and what is expected of it that is the root cause of many feelings of disillusionment.

A Debating Society is just that. A regulated meeting of people who get together in order to discuss an issue of the day under formulated and agreed rules of debating. More often the debate is won or lost not because of the logical correctness of the winning argument but because the rules are being followed in according to procedure. Rather like winning a court case. Justice doesn't always come into it.

A Bulletin Board on the other hand is an open forum, a slice of real life, where there are no rules as such but the passion and strength of conviction of the person posting the argument. I feel no guilt if sometimes my posts reflect a certain personal bias against another poster as I wouldn't expect any guilt from someome who has a bias against me, and additionally I don't feel personally affronted if I am insulted or my arguments are ignored. That's just a slice of real life.

Reading through and contributing to various posts I get the distinct impression that a number of people enter a thread expecting it to be clinically correct and hygenically clean. You can't control people outside a controlled environment in that way.

I tend to have no illusions about Bulletin Boards. To me they are more affiliated with general real life arguments. The type of thing that happens every day of our lives, be it in a bar or at work, at home or in school. And because they are conducted within the safe confines of cyber space there is little fear of being punched in the mouth for expressing a personal view with true passion. Whereas I do admit to having witnessed my fair share of violence in the more "civilised" and controlled confines of a real life debating chamber.

Rules have there place. Bulletin Boards have theirs.

 

[christo]

An Optimist

I'm not as pessimistic as Laurel about Internet censorship. I think that "censorship" is one of those words that Americans instinctively get up in arms about. For the right, it's gun control. For the left, freedom of speech. If the Supreme Court rules that Internet sites can't have pictures of, well, whatever they decide is dirty, I think there would be such an uproar, such a outbreak of civil disobedience, that it would make the new law unenforceable.

It's just like if a way-liberal Supreme Court outlawed guns. Uh, how do you collect 'em? FBI agents going door to door? Fun job. If this Supreme Court outlaws web sites that show dirty pictures or naughty stories, how do you catch all the pornographers? How many porno web sites are there? A billion? How many people visit porn sites? According to the latest poll I saw, every single person in the world has visited at least one pornographic web site. Except my mom, of course.

The Bill of Rights says "Freedom of Speech". I think even Antonin Scalia would have a tough time justifying tossing that in the can.

So far as Bush doing a good job...uh, is he still President? He's like the invisible man. He got his tax cut passed, which is nice if you're like me nd getting $300 back for the Visa bill, and supersweet if you're megarich and you're getting another $50K to toss on the fire.

So far Bush's foreign policy has revolved around missle defense, which is a pipe dream, and, deep-sixing the Kyoto accords, which pretty much pissed off Europe. I actually don't mind pissing of Europeans, especially the French, so I say he's batting .500 there.

I would find Bush's occasional Yogi Berraisms cute and charming if they were, well, occasional. The man speaks English as though it were his fifth language. Clinton may have been too intelligent to be Prez, too intellectually curious and nimble to buckle down and do the work that the President needs to do and leave the other stuff to his aides. Bush...I hope that boom box in Cheney's chest works, because I'm not exactly confident in Dubya's brainpower if the shit ever hits the fan.

 

[rambling man]

I do not believe that the Supreme Court is as conservative as people seem to believe. My memory is fuzzy, but didn't they overturn the Telecommunications Act that engaged in a great deal of censorship. They also have made other decisions that fly in the face of their supposed conservatism. Someone else may remember them that pays more attention.

It is also true that liberals try to restrict rights at least as much as conservatives. Guns are definitely an issue, so is free speech on college campuses.

I think it is a mistake to say all left wingers are liberal and that all right wingers are conservative. Some right wingers go beyond conservatism into revolutionary beliefs, especially groups that are racist, fascist, or both. Those boys and girls are a distinct group from good ol' fashioned conservatism, as different as regular liberals are from communists.