Time for the US to reflect?

[Guest]

My condolences. What happened this week is very sad. Please don't be offended by what I am going to say here - I am just interested in the political dynamics.

As most of you know [of those who know me] I am a human rights lawyer. In the circumstances I was wondering how many Americans blame their own leaders for the attacks. I am obviously very sensitive to human rights violations and racial discrimination [of the kind implemented in Israel and sanctioned by US foreign policy]. I was at the Racism Conference in Durban last week when the US infuriated the world by leaving the conference because some delegates refered to Israel as an "apartheid state".

So here are my questions:

(i) Because of President Bush's myopic foreign policy and lack of respect for human rights - do any Americans consider that he should possibly carry some contributory blame; and

(ii)If the public choose their leaders, and their leaders place them in grave danger by upholding racism in placers that offend [militant] Muslims to the extent that they will kill civilians - is it now time to tell the Bush government that it must change its ways; and

(iii) Of interest to me: how many of you are sympathetic to the Palestinian liberation struggle and feel that Israel's oppression is unjustified.

 

[Never]

Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

I'd wait a week before posting this.

 

[lavender]

 

[Problem Child]

i) they had to be planning this a year before Bush ever took offce. Why not blame the 50 cruise missiles that Clinton launched against Bin Laden and the aspirin factory? Makes more sense to me.

ii) Again with Bush. Are you really so naiive to think the roots of this just started eight months ago?

iii) I think when the palestinians stop acting like terrorists the Isrealis will start treating them like humans and when the Isrealis start treating the Palestinians like humans they will stop acting like terrorists.

Both sides are to blame, and I don't think it will ever end without a decisive war. They've proven they will never live together.

 

[Cheyenne]

"No" on all three items.

 

[Problem Child]

somebody turn the robot off.

 

[Mischka]

If the public choose their leaders, and their leaders place them in grave danger by upholding racism in placers that offend [militant] Muslims to the extent that they will kill civilians - is it now time to tell the Bush government that it must change its ways

Are you suggesting that any nation yield to the potential terroristic threats of fringe militants? A nation should change its ways in order not to offend terrorists? Western leaders do not place their people in "grave danger." The myopic and tainted view of our society by these fringe terrorist groups are what place us in grave danger.

Of interest to me: how many of you are sympathetic to the Palestinian liberation struggle and feel that Israel's oppression is unjustified.

First, zionism does not equal racism or apartheid any more than any people's struggle for a homeland of their own. I am sympathetic to the Palestinian's struggle, but wonder why only the Israelis are expected to help them. Where is the active support of the rest of the Arab world? A few Arab nations eagerly lay the blame on Israel, but I see no other bordering nation giving up land to the Palestinians. They deserve their own homeland, but not only at a cost to the Israelis.

 

[Laurel]

Regardless of political views, I really think we'd all be better off waiting a few more days before starting to bash one another over this horrific attack. My focus right now is on making sure that the survivors survive and that everyone affected gets the support - be it medical, financial, emotional - that they need. Secondarily, I would like to see our government respond appropriately to the parties found responsible.

Attacking or belittling others who are hurting, regardless of their politics, is not high up on my list right now. We will not stop the free flow of discussion here, of course, but this is my personal feeling at this moment.

 

[registered "^^"]

If you want to argue politics, I suggest you volunteer to help pull bodies out of the wrechage for one day. Then I want you to tell me at the end of the day by looking at your hands, which blood was Democratic and which was Republican.

 

[Problem Child]

Laurel, this is a weak bashing thread.

There are at least three other threads tonight that have way better bashing than this.

 

[Slut_boy]

Laurel, I am definately not "belittling others", I was just hoping to reflect in an honest way. Sometimes we need to learn from whatever lesson is hurled our way - that's a buddhist teaching. Also, I am sorry that my name didn't come out [I am the guy that started this thread]. I certainly don't want to be anonomous. Mischka, as I said, I was at the racism conference and there is virtually no state in the world [189 states attended] that supports Israel. Thats why I was wondering about your views - please understand that I was just wondering, not attacking. Problem Child, I hope that I am not naive - but I was not making any statements, I was only asking questions. I am also not "bashing". Please believe me.

I don't want to seem insensitive to those that are grieving. So perhaps you are right to leave this discussion until some of the pain subsides.

 

[Guest]

Come on Slut Boy, you can post with your real fake name, but to answer your questions:

1) Nope, this was planned for a long time and is not related to Bush's policy, however it is characterized.

2) Again this had no relationship to the curent adminestration, planning for it started during the previous admenestation, and the attack itself is bigotted reactionarism at its very worst.

3) The Isreali actions toward their Palestian neighbors have discusted me for years. I do not think that they would have been tollerated in any other Western Country. They would have been made a parriah long ago if not for being the inheritors of the hollocost.

The problem is that is untenable for any American Politican to oppose Isreali internal policies, regardless of how moraly bankrupt they are.

 

[Slut_boy]

...and my final post on this thread. I am an intellectual and I just want to engage on a meaningful level. I thought that it would be interesting to see if we can [even at difficult times] see things from another perspective,one that we are perhaps not accustomed to. My question was, I guess - can you paradigm?

 

[Samuari]

Come on Slut Boy, you can post with your real fake name, but to answer your questions:

1) Nope, this was planned for a long time and is not related to Bush's policy, however it is characterized.

2) Again this had no relationship to the curent adminestration, planning for it started during the previous admenestation, and the attack itself is bigotted reactionarism at its very worst.

3) The Isreali actions toward their Palestian neighbors have discusted me for years. I do not think that they would have been tollerated in any other Western Country. They would have been made a parriah long ago if not for being the inheritors of the hollocost.

The problem is that is untenable for any American Politican to oppose Isreali internal policies, regardless of how moraly bankrupt they are.

That was my post. damn cookies.

 

[Laurel]

Hi Slut_boy! I didn't even know it was you, else I would've spanked you personally.

I'm certainly not trying to discourage discussions or even arguments about what went wrong, who is to blame, etc. My only point was to allow a little time for people to get over the initial shock and for some of us to spend some time focusing on how or if we can do anything to help those directly affected.

I'm sure that my dear UncleBill and I will have plenty of friendly "discussions" about this at some point in the future. For now, though, I'm still pretty shell-shocked. I'm not going to stop anyone from saying what they need to say, of course, but I'm taking a breather on this issue for a while.

I hope that all is well with you, and thank you for responding and understanding that I'm not necessarily myself right now.

 

[Guest]

Regarding PC's answer -

i) they had to be planning this a year before Bush ever took offce. Why not blame the 50 cruise missiles that Clinton launched against Bin Laden and the aspirin factory? Makes more sense to me.

ii) Again with Bush. Are you really so naiive to think the roots of this just started eight months ago?

iii) I think when the palestinians stop acting like terrorists the Isrealis will start treating them like humans and when the Isrealis start treating the Palestinians like humans they will stop acting like terrorists.

Both sides are to blame, and I don't think it will ever end without a decisive war. They've proven they will never live together.

I agree with the first two points. The quarrel with the US predates this Bush Adminstration.

The third point is totally wrong. The Israelis have never opted to treat the Palestinians as people deserving, at the very least, to be fully in control of the West Bank that is the only part left of their ancestral homelands. While the Oslo Accords were developing and proceding for years, the Israeli population DOUBLED in the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. Rabin was assassinated by the Israelis themselves. Natanyahu was a wormy demagogue who never intended to advance peace and never entirely broke with it either. Barak was a double dealer who never trusted anyone, including his own staff and political partners. Sharon landed on the Dome of the Rock to provoke an incident and enhance his image in Israel; he set off the new intifada as a publicity stunt that worked so well that he is now Prime Miniser.
Sharon is a known war criminal for his activities in enabling the massacres of Palestinians in Beirut. He fostered the settlements long ago as a bulwark against any potential peace deal that might arise. His foresight led to the current destruction of the Oslo Accords. He is now pursuing policies that can only logically culminate in a military expulsion of Palestinians from at least some major sectors of the West Bank. All of this is illegal under international law.
Few Americans, whose weapons are illegally used for each incursion into the West bank, care very much about any of this. I don't actually think that any nation would intervene if the ethnic cleansing publicly advocated by many Israelis were to take place. How would any of you feel if you were a Palestinian under such cirtcumstances?
Personally, I wish to cut off foreign aid to Israel until and unless the country agrees to close all of its settlements. Granting Israel the land it already acquired in the earlier wars, I believe that East Jerusalem and the West Bank should be Palestinian. They can sever all contact if they like after that. But we shall never have peace as long a bunch of people who killed their own prime minister and cite the Bible as the logic behind their poilitical and military choices are running amok over there. The settlers were created for reasons I do not support, and I do not support any Israeli government that aims to please them.
None of this constitutes apporval of the Palestinian Authority. Having seen Mossad assassinate numerous Arafat aides over the years - and noting that they always kill the smartest, ablest ones - I know that Arafat only lives because the Israelis find him stupid and corrupt enough to deal with. He doesn't scare them, and it's easy for them to top his pathetic PR. He is a terrible leader and the Palestinians frequently exercise rotten judgement, as with whatever joy was shown yesterday, and with their support for Saddam Hussein in '91. But they have not attacked America - our prior problems are with people of OTHER nationalities.
It is important that the world prevent ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. If it takes place, yesterday will be a tea party compared to what disaffected Muslims will wreak in the world. I don't wish to die for a wrong, and the settlements are wrong.

 

[shadowsource]

damn!

that was me, the long one above....

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I never would've guessed.

 

[Slut_boy]

Laurel, thanks baby. I think you're right. And Bill sent me an e-mail this morning in which he made his feelings on Clinton's blameworthiness clear. LOL. I must say, Laurel, I really miss the chats that we all used to have. I loved them - hey, thats why I am back. And by the way baby, I have been trying to send you an e-mail about something totally unrelated to this BB, but without luck.

PS: who's the guy flying the US flag under his name [should have known I wouldn't get an impartial response from him] *winks at Problem child*.

My theory: Its angry Florida voters that crashed in the WTC.

 

[vlvtelvis]

.

So here are my questions:

(i) Because of President Bush's myopic foreign policy and lack of respect for human rights - do any Americans consider that he should possibly carry some contributory blame; and

Isreal is a problem that's been going on for 50 years. It's like the drug war. It's a problem that each administration inherits for the previous one. It's a delicate matter. More Jews live in the US than in Isreal and most of them vote. We can't just abandon them. Holocaust guilt is still a factor in the world psyche as well. Bush just got the job. Unless the guilt was passed on geneticly along with the job, I think his hands are pretty clean on this one.

(ii)If the public choose their leaders, and their leaders place them in grave danger by upholding racism in placers that offend [militant] Muslims to the extent that they will kill civilians - is it now time to tell the Bush government that it must change its ways; and

Is ignorance an excuse? I think one party that is to blame in this is the popular news media. If the average American knew 1/4 as much about world events as they do about where Gerry Condit's dick has been, this would have come as a supprise to no one. I've been reading Chomsky's critiques of American forign policy for years. I'm supprised this didn't happen sooner. I'm hoping that that a silver lining to all of this will be that people actualy start asking questions about why it is that these people are so pissed off in the first place, resulting in meaningful public discourse on the subject.

(iii) Of interest to me: how many of you are sympathetic to the Palestinian liberation struggle and feel that Israel's oppression is unjustified.

Oppression is never justified

They are well within their rights to be pissed off.
It's too bad that it took this for people to take it seriously.

 

[Problem Child]

Laurel, thanks baby. I think you're right. And Bill sent me an e-mail this morning in which he made his feelings on Clinton's blameworthiness clear. LOL. I must say, Laurel, I really miss the chats that we all used to have. I loved them - hey, thats why I am back. And by the way baby, I have been trying to send you an e-mail about something totally unrelated to this BB, but without luck.

PS: who's the guy flying the US flag under his name [should have known I wouldn't get an impartial response from him] *winks at Problem child*.

My theory: Its angry Florida voters that crashed in the WTC.

I thought my response was very impartial. I'm just always a little dickier to unregistered's. If I'd known it was you I'd have been EXTREMELY polite.

 

[Slut_boy]

vlvtelvis [amazing fucking name]: I like your post. You seem like a very level-headed and sensible person. Have you ever read the debate between Noam Chompsky and Michele Foucault on this exact issue. Amazing stuff [just like your name.. LOL]. I am pleased to meet you, although I am gonna abbreviate your name to "telvis". Okay?

PC, you are a good man. Thanks.

 

[Azwed]

Hey Slut_boy how are you? Probably don't remember me but you might.

I agree with vlvtelvis it amazes me how many people have asked me why they did this. Why they hate us so much and why they would do such a terrible thing. Most of this people are in college and some will be graduating this year, yet they know little to nothing about this problem. I have grown tired of explaining this, to the best of my abality, over and over to various people.

 

[Slut_boy]

Good God Azwed -- its been ages. I know the feeling my old friend. Its good to see you again. Where you been? You gonna also blame Y2K problems for your mysterious absence. LOL.

 

[Azwed]

Feels good to be remembered. I lurk alot but don't post unless i find something interesting or I see a question I can answer. I have been posting alot more lately because of all this mess. I will probably post pretty heavily for the next couple of weeks then go back to semi-lurker status.