thread from yahoo litwriters

[gauchecritic]

Just in case anyone was wondering if there would be any more writerly threads now that the self cast cognoscenti are in the corner talking amongst themselves.

Editing/critiquing as a two way dialogue.

In a discussion about editing or critiquing as a useful tool for improving your own writing Neonlite (Lyte? light? never get that right) said:

Critiquing work, I think, does improve my sense of
story, and I enjoy the process, but it does only work if the author up
for critique actually wants the two way dialogue, otherwise, you have
no idea of your analysis has any relevance and learn nothing from the
process.

This week I received a PM from someone whose work I'd just edited which simply said (along with thankyou very much etc) "I appreciate the time that you took to help me out and to give me your comments." which is all very nice, but as Neon said it gives me no idea of the original author's thoughts on the actual work that I did.

So the question is; as an editor do you want your 'editee' to argue/comment/complain about your editing? As an editee do you feel that you ought to explain why you are right and the editor is wrong?

I've argued points with editors and then had them explain in more detail which changed my mind or technically corrected an editor (Oxford are, not Oxord is) when I know I'm right. And I know I'm always happier (from both ends) if there has been dialogue rather than just stated opinion.

So, should editing, focusing here on Lit. stories, be a two way process?

 

[rgraham666]

Since I often disagree with what my editors tell me, yes.

I'll write back saying, "No I want this here. It does (whatever)."

They write back saying, "OK" or "In that case, try…" or "Who's the editor here?"

Dialog doesn't only happen in stories.

 

[impressive]

I don't edit much here on Lit, but I do it professionally for Phaze -- and I do prefer dialog.

 

[cantdog]

Once the story has returned from the editor, one usually is impatient to patch it up and submit it.

If one could sit in a room someplace and talk, over a copy of the blue-penciled work (be it onscreen or in a pile of paper on a desk), then yes, I would like nothing better than a true discussion. But one sends it off, you know. And life progresses from there with little further reference to it.

As an editor, I have delved into these things. Once in a while I got a reply, but I had to screw up first. I remember Luc Carroll saying I don't understand what you mean here, for instance; that started a very fruitful little exchange. But in most cases it's like shouting into a strong wind. Off go the words, and no discernable impact results.

That discouraged me. I now offer only to proofread. By that I mean, correct run-ons, danglers, misspellings, usage problems, grammar and whatnot. The real editing takes a pile of skull sweat and time, and is gone.

 

[cantdog]

My first editor did nothing to the text at all. Perhaps it was perfectly punctuated? No, he said I overused semicolon, told me this in a little note. Where? I could not say, as he did not indicate. Perhaps it had no usage problems? No, the little note referred to some difficulty, but again, no pointers were in the text. A note.

My second editor did many many things to the text, I imagine. She sent me a big ass Word file, doubtless using the full features of the program. Sadly, we had begun our exchange of e-mails and PMs with an agreement not to employ MS Word. I do not own Word and I have no access to any copy of it, so I had requested and received assurances that other formats were to be used. I kept the Word file a little while, but eventually deleted it. Completely useless, even though the editor was a notable, prizewinning one.

So it has gone. I don't use one now. I find a story critique useful, but not an editor.

 

[jakebarnes06]

First the caveat. I have no experience, education or background as either an author or an editor, except for posting a few stories on Lit. Accordingly, the ideas below are my own and have formed out of my own perceived and selfish needs.

I've always been up front, when first contacting a volunteer editor, that I sought assistance with more than just grammar issues. I've found that enhanced assistance with two editors, one from a couple of years ago and one with whom I'm currently working.

For me, the relationship with an editor must include give and take. The editor must be willing to listen to my ideas and I must listen to the editor's ideas--actually, not only ideas, but also the bases for those ideas. From there, we each must be willing to discuss our differences.

To date I've asked many questions of my editors, such as: is this scene too long? too short? is it boring? does it contribute sufficiently to the story's tension? do I need more/less description? more/less dialog? does the scene cross Lit category lines, i.e., into fetish? or bdsm? has this character become too dominant? or too submissive? I've always requested more than just yes or no answers.

On the other hand, it's the author's responsibility to write the story and to provide the original ideas for the story, although occasional nudges from the editor are helpful. There is a flexible, gray line that the author and editor must set in accord with their own needs and tolerances.

When returning her first edit to me, my current editor wrote, "I'm sure I could rattle on and on, but I won't, you lucky guy."

I responded, "Me, a lucky guy? Is that because...or because I'm not listening to more rattle? The rattle has been great so far. Please keep it up." (omitted text not relevant here)

I hope these ideas help.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I have mixed feelings about editors. I don't want my writing to be coloured by how they think my story should go.

I have a couple of test readers that I bounce things off of, to make sure that what I have written works.

Selena, bless her heart, offered to edit my work about a year ago, and I have learned so much from her. She corrects the technical mistakes, and offers valuable advice from time to time. But, she has never tried to change what I have written. At this time in my writing career, she is the perfect editor for me.

As for an editor who wants to rip my work apart and dissect it. I have no interest in that whatsoever.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Actually, I'm finding that editing is a two way street. I send to my editor, and I get back comments like, "I've heard that term, I didn't know what it meant."

On the other hand, he's taught me a lot about punctuation, logical format etc.

He is WONDERFUL. He deserves a big

 

[scriptordelecto]

As for an editor who wants to rip my work apart and dissect it. I have no interest in that whatsoever.

I agree with that, but I think that having an objective person available to point out 'plot holes' and make suggestions is a valuable asset.

As long as they are open to exchange of ideas and dialogue, it's great to have someone to bounce things off of.

 

[Grushenka]

The real editing takes a pile of skull sweat and time, and is gone.

Speaking of non-Literotica experiences, I only edit for colleagues and persons who tell me exactly what they want from my reading and for what purpose. It’s hard work, takes a special dedication, and being a not-too-generous type, I get cranky if it turns out I wasted my time.

I think of editing as more often than not a thankless chore. However, good editors are a breed apart; I’ve known less than a handful over the years, and (knock wood) managed to keep one for 10+ years now. I rarely disagree with a thing she says (tactfully suggests is usually the case), and always after say to myself, “Why didn’t I think of that?” or “How did I miss that?”

My only advice to editors here (not to anyone in particular): Ask what the writer wants from your reading. Expect no more than thanks. Be pleasantly surprised if you get more.

 

[sophia jane]

I want a dialogue as well, both as an editor and as a writer. For me, I am fortunate in that I edit for my editor, so it's always a dialogue with him. But, I agree that it's an almost useless exercise if some kind of exchange isn't part of the deal.
As a writer, there's nothing worse than one of those little notes about an error without any idea where the error is, and as an editor there's nothing worse than spending hours making notes, suggestions, asking questions, only to find out the writer wanted only punctuation fixed. So it is best for both parties to be honest about their expectations, so no one wastes their time.

 

[rgraham666]

I disagree about the notes about a repeated mistake. I find them quite useful. If my editor leaves a note that says "Watch your use of semicolons" or "You kept getting into the other character's head" I'll keep an eye out for that.

A note every time I misuse a semicolon or head hop I find annoying.

 

[shereads]

My three cents' worth, factoring in inflation:

My experience with writing and editing hasn't been at Lit, but I believe it applies. Editing that doesn't include two-way communication wastes the talents of both people. I'm not saying that the editee should argue out of pride (although that's probably inevitable) but that challenging each other leads to a clearer understanding of why something works or doesn't. An editor might realize that the change he's suggesting is more extreme than it needs to be, and help the writer find a solution that satisfies them both. The writer, by expressing his objections to the editor's idea might begin to agree that he's fallen short of what he intended to communicate.

If there isn't respect on both sides, it's a futile relationship. Just as significantly, if your editor can't relate to the audience you're trying to reach, he might still be wrong even when he's right. What works for an audience of poets and artists and professors of English literature might be a complete flop for an audience of average readers seeking a pleasant distraction.

~ ~ ~

"There is no human urge - neither hunger nor thirst nor sexual desire - more compelling than the need to edit someone else's work."

~ Anonymous

:smiley face:

 

[McKenna]

So, should editing, focusing here on Lit. stories, be a two way process?

Definitely. I think as we are all amateurs (most all of us, anyway!) it's important to have that dialogue. Writers are infinitely proud of their work, and ofttimes (in my experience) very possessive of it, too. When an editor suggests changes to a piece of work, the author may take umbrage simply because he/she feels that changing it to what the editor suggests somehow makes it less than his/her story. I think this is common to most amateur writers who have little to no experience with the editing process.

Some folks just want a pat on the back; fewer want in-depth critiquing.

I think keeping an open dialogue teaches the author to accept criticism better; if a discussion can be had about suggested changes, it opens the door to learning how to write AND edit better. This door has to be open for both, however; an editor can't fear a "challenge" from an author, and an author can't be over-sensitive about what an editor suggests. It's a fine line, but in my experience, the more often I have something edited, the thicker my skin becomes, and the more open to suggestions I become --which in turn, makes me a better writer.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I agree with that, but I think that having an objective person available to point out 'plot holes' and make suggestions is a valuable asset.

As long as they are open to exchange of ideas and dialogue, it's great to have someone to bounce things off of.

Yes, I agree with you totally on that point. Sometimes what is in my head fails to make it to the page.

 

[gauchecritic]

the author may take umbrage simply because he/she feels that changing it to what the editor suggests somehow makes it less than his/her story. I think this is common to most amateur writers who have little to no experience with the editing process.

I must admit, when editing other's work, I try to be very aware of inputting my own preferences rather than pointing out what I see as general 'mistakes' or awkwardness. To such an extent that I preface all my editing with 'these are where I personally think something should be changed'.
Generalities such as he said, she said, or word repetition are easily pointed out and remedied but I find myself breaking one of my first rules in editing which is not to re-write when I find myself unable to pinpoint why a phrase is awkward.
A while ago I had to admit defeat to an author and explain that I couldn't edit their work because I would need to re-write the whole thing. In this, I was ducking my edtorial obligations by seriously suggesting that the person should take a basic course in English Language. I'm glad I didn't, but sad too in that I just couldn't be that blunt (honest) with them.

 

[S-Des]

I agree with that, but I think that having an objective person available to point out 'plot holes' and make suggestions is a valuable asset.

As long as they are open to exchange of ideas and dialogue, it's great to have someone to bounce things off of.

My editor is not shy about expressing his opinion of phrases, characters, or plot ideas. He made an enormous difference in my writing in our first effort. The important part is that he likes my style, so it's not so much him trying to change me, just offering a different perspective. I used to do that with prereaders, but they aren't usually skilled enough to really give you constructive criticism. I have enough confidence in my work that if we disagree, I can make the choice. He has enough respect for me that when I do, he accepts it and moves on. But I always give him the courtesy of considering it and explaining my reasons.

I don't make mistakes with the little things very much (I go over my stories a lot before I let anyone look at them), but he does watch for word repetition and ways to improve the flow. That is something that is very important. I actually received a couple of comments on my Christmas submission complementing my editor for how much my writing had improved.

 

[shereads]

When an editor suggests changes to a piece of work, the author may take umbrage simply because he/she feels that changing it to what the editor suggests somehow makes it less than his/her story.

Maybe that's the key to accepting honest criticism: realizing that it isn't your story, unless you're the only one who needs to understand and appreciate it.

The value of reading, as opposed to watching TV or movies, is that each reader brings his own imagination to the experience: we use an author's work as the basis for a story that's uniquely our own.

 

[Grushenka]

Maybe that's the key to accepting honest criticism: realizing that it isn't your story, unless you're the only one who needs to understand and appreciate it.

The value of reading, as opposed to watching TV or movies, is that each reader brings his own imagination to the experience: we use an author's work as the basis for a story that's uniquely our own.

Thank you! This thread was worth your post (at the very least). Great foodstuff for thought, deserves a thread all its own.

 

[S-Des]

Maybe that's the key to accepting honest criticism: realizing that it isn't your story, unless you're the only one who needs to understand and appreciate it.

The value of reading, as opposed to watching TV or movies, is that each reader brings his own imagination to the experience: we use an author's work as the basis for a story that's uniquely our own.

Which is why I'm so open to criticism (and when someone asks me to read, they better be ready to hear my opinion). Just because I'm satisfied with the character's actions, doesn't mean the reader will be. My highest rated LW story took a number of hits because of a minor problem some readers had with a character's decision. I received several 4s with a comment about how that single action annoyed them to the point where it lessened their enjoyment of the story. Although I wouldn't change it if there was a reason for the action, the truth is that I thought it was something "cute" that would show how much she loved him. People took it the wrong way. My current editor would most definitely have jumped on me about it and pointed out the potential problem. It still leaves the decision with me, but gives me a chance to understand how someone else will see it so I can decide what's crucial to the story and what is just a questionable decision.

 

[McKenna]

Maybe that's the key to accepting honest criticism: realizing that it isn't your story, unless you're the only one who needs to understand and appreciate it.

I absolutely love this! So very true! I think a lot of beginning writers don't realize this, however. I think the next time I edit a story for a beginner, I will preface my comments with what you've said above.

 

[scriptordelecto]

My editor is not shy about expressing his opinion of phrases, characters, or plot ideas. He made an enormous difference in my writing in our first effort. The important part is that he likes my style, so it's not so much him trying to change me, just offering a different perspective. I used to do that with prereaders, but they aren't usually skilled enough to really give you constructive criticism. I have enough confidence in my work that if we disagree, I can make the choice. He has enough respect for me that when I do, he accepts it and moves on. But I always give him the courtesy of considering it and explaining my reasons.

I don't make mistakes with the little things very much (I go over my stories a lot before I let anyone look at them), but he does watch for word repetition and ways to improve the flow. That is something that is very important. I actually received a couple of comments on my Christmas submission complementing my editor for how much my writing had improved.

Congrats you lucky man! I think that sort of relationship is vital. I am very critical of my own work, but I recognize that I don't have the necessary objectivity to make it what it could be on my own. I hope that I can find someone who will click on that level with me.

Hubby does a decent job, but he's not entirely objective either.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

My editor is not shy about expressing his opinion of phrases, characters, or plot ideas. He made an enormous difference in my writing in our first effort. The important part is that he likes my style, so it's not so much him trying to change me, just offering a different perspective. I used to do that with prereaders, but they aren't usually skilled enough to really give you constructive criticism. I have enough confidence in my work that if we disagree, I can make the choice. He has enough respect for me that when I do, he accepts it and moves on. But I always give him the courtesy of considering it and explaining my reasons.

That's where I have no interest or desire. My characters, and my plot are my own. I absolutely couldn't care less what anyone else's opinion is. But then, I don't consider myself to be a writer, not in a literary way. Nor do I have any desire to be a literary writer. I don't search for the perfect word, or the perfect phrase.

I'm still trying to learn how to write. Just the simple mechanics of writing are what I am struggling to understand. And that's where my editor has and is helping me the most.

 

[floweringquince]

I've tried a Literotica VE for one (yeah - count 'em, one story so far.

He's been very good, although perhaps not as stringent as I would benefit the most from. (He even lets me end sentences with prepostitions

In my first draft to him, he pointed out some plot holes (that I'd known about and forgotten to fix- arggh!). In the second draft, he pointed out a simile that he found cliched, a couple places where the dialogue was awkward, and one bit of description that he found unclear.

(Th plot holes he pointed out in general description: "They were at Point A - did they go directly to Point B? Or are they really at Point C?"

The more specific things he pointed out in quoted text: " '...enough gold rings and chains to open his own jewelry store.' seems kind of cliched to me.")

I came up with a better simile and smoothed the dialogue, but explained the unclear description to him and decided to leave it - I thought it was pretty clear as it was, and could find no good way to rephrase it anyway.

Throughout the process, he showered me with compliments about how good, and how sexy, my writing was (in evidence of both his supreme quality as an editor, and perceptivenes as a reader . That really helped to "keep me sweet" when it came to accepting his criticisms.

If he's really at the level to help me with things like word repetition, improving the flow, pacing, etc.; he hasn't shown it yet. (I may not be at that level yet, either, much as I'd like to be.)

He's been very helpful, and I've been very glad of his help. I'm keeping him

- Quince

 

[Skip1934a]

Congrats you lucky man! I think that sort of relationship is vital. I am very critical of my own work, but I recognize that I don't have the necessary objectivity to make it what it could be on my own. I hope that I can find someone who will click on that level with me.

Hubby does a decent job, but he's not entirely objective either.

My editor is much like S-Des'. He likes the way I write, but he makes valuable suggestions when I screw something up. I have a muse that also reads beta for me, and she is a great writer herself. I can't write in her style, but wish I could. She says mine is more 'forceful' than hers, whatever that means. My editor says I'm ruining his reputation as a critical editor because he finds so little in spelling, word choice, and grammar to correct. I don't know who else he edits for, but if I'm ruining his reputation, some of them must be in need of what he likes to do.