Thoughts on war movies...

[KillerMuffin]

In most war movies the enemy, whomever that might be, doesn't speak the same language as the protagonists. Going from a strickly English speaking perspective here,

Germans speak German. Vietcong speak Vietnamese. Japanese speak Japanese, and so on and so forth. Even our allies didn't all speak English. The French speak French and the Filipinos speak Tagalog.

I've noticed that in some modern war movies, like U571, the enemy, in this case German U-boat persons, spoke German and the language was subtitled. The StudMuffin and entourage (read kid, dad, and assorted mutts) are all watching Battle of the Bulge. This reminded me of all those other, older war movies where the Germans all spoke accented English, with a phrase or two of actual German tossed in, and so did the rest of the non-English speaking persons. Well, they spoke whatever country they're from accent English with a word or two tossed in.

Example: "Achtung! The bride has not been blow up!" Okay...

I've discovered that I vastly prefer the enemy and allies to speak their native language unless the situation is actually in English. Subtitles work for me. I realize that not everyone in the English speaking world is literate, but still, I like it better when they speak their native language, even if it isn't subtitled. I don't know, just makes it seem less type-cast and more real. Obviously they are going to hire people who speak and look like Vietnamese in a 'Nam movie if they have to speak Vietnamese rather than people like those old John Wayne indians which were shoe polish coated white guys whooping in the back ground riding western saddles covered with indian blankets. When they spoke, they sounded like they just came out of the Bronx or Harvard.

So, do you prefer that non-English speakers in non-English speaking situations speak their native language in a movie, or would you prefer the accented English?

 

[sexy-girl]

this is going to probably sound weird


but i like when everybody speaks english naturally without any "put on accent" in films

this way the germans in a film can act and put feelings into there roles just as much as the english/american side can

but i guess it depends on which film it is and what situation is ... i saw one film and for the first 10mins they spoke with subtitles and then it switched into them speaking normal english with no accent ... i forget which film it was but it seemed to work well

 

[Neale]

My vote goes to the appropriate language with subtitles. I like trying to translate the German in my head, anyway... The languages that I don't speak, I assume they are saying some truly obscene shit.

 

[sexy-girl]

but dont you think they can act better to us english speakers when they talk in our language ?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

It depends on what the filmmaker is going for. Films like "The Longest Day", "Saving Private Ryan", "The Big Red One", "Patton", "Once Upon a Midnight Clear" and other were directed with an eye towards documentation, a "being there" quality that needed the authenticity of language to carry you into the picture.

"Schindler's List" was the more documentary styled of them all (created to resemble allied film work), but the Germans spoke English -- so how do you account for that?

Well, in the first paragraph the protagonists were all Americans, and the filmmaker wants you to indentify with the, so of course they spoke English. In "Schindler" the protagonist is German, and, again, the filmmaker wants you to identify with him, so the film is in English.

Often it's not so much which you pick, subtitles or English, but the extent to which you commint to your conventions. For example, in "The Hunt for Red October" is was important that the Russians speak English, because this was an action picture and the filmmakers want you looking at torpedos, not subtitles. But, it's also a Tom Clancy picture, which means a lot of neat, realistic detail. So you start with the actors speaking Russian. Then, as one character begins reading a prophetic passage from Bible the camera zooms into his mouth. Suddenly the actor starts speaking English. The camera pulls back and we understand that we've just been given a sort of "universal translator". The filmmakers committed to their convention very well, by calling attention to it in a graceful way. Though the actors are speaking English you are still aware that they're actually speaking Russian.

I don't have a preference for subtitles or using English. I on'y care that the filmmakers pick a convention appropriate to the project and execute it wittily.

I once wrote a screenplay about time travelers who go back to the Middle Ages, but I wanted to buck convention of what we all thought the middle ages were. I wanted the time travelers to feel that they've not only gone back in time, but that they've almost landed on an entirely different world (which is how it would actually feel). So even though they land in England, they can't understand the language. (English sounded a lot more like a sort of guttural French at one point.)
So I created a sort of phoentic language for the characters. It was a bit like reading English as spoken by the slave Jim in "Huckleberry Finn" -- you could understand it, barely.

(I couldn't really create a new language, because this is Hollywood after all, and when you're shopping a screenplay it has to first pass a series of idiot college kid "readers" whose intellect is often spurious and who usually lose interest if you don't blow something up or show a tit every 10 pages.)

So here's a film that would have used an odd sounding English as a way to make the protagonists feel very, very alienated. Subtitles would ruin that. I wanted the audience to have to listen as carefully as the protagonists, so they could feel immersed in the story.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Actually, I don't think their acting to us English speakers makes any difference. The words themselves don't mean nearly as much as vocal inflection, facial expressions, body language, and the way they behave.

It makes it more difficult to get into a someone's acting if we're constantly reading subtitles and not watching the action, but I find that I just accept what they're doing without the subtitles more often than not. But that's me.

There was a scene in Good Morning Vietnam where the bar exploded and the gay guy hot for Walter Kronkite's ankles was going on and on in Vietnmese. It was very powerful, despite the fact that I couldn't understand a word he said and there were no subtitles.

 

[Pokerman]

I like the way they do it in the Jack Ryan movies.
In "Hunt for Red October" and "Clear and Present Danger" they started off speaking their native languages, then they do something in slow motion (in CaPD it was the pitching machine slowwwwwed down) and suddenly they are speaking in English.

It means, understand they are still speaking in their native language but for purposes of the movie, we're ditching the subtitles and listening to them in English....a pretty cool 'device' if you ask me.....

 

[tmuyo]

In most war movies the enemy, whomever that might be, doesn't speak the same language as the protagonists. Going from a strickly English speaking perspective here,

Germans speak German. Vietcong speak Vietnamese. Japanese speak Japanese, and so on and so forth. Even our allies didn't all speak English. The French speak French and the Filipinos speak Tagalog.

I've noticed that in some modern war movies, like U571, the enemy, in this case German U-boat persons, spoke German and the language was subtitled. The StudMuffin and entourage (read kid, dad, and assorted mutts) are all watching Battle of the Bulge. This reminded me of all those other, older war movies where the Germans all spoke accented English, with a phrase or two of actual German tossed in, and so did the rest of the non-English speaking persons. Well, they spoke whatever country they're from accent English with a word or two tossed in.

Example: "Achtung! The bride has not been blow up!" Okay...

I've discovered that I vastly prefer the enemy and allies to speak their native language unless the situation is actually in English. Subtitles work for me. I realize that not everyone in the English speaking world is literate, but still, I like it better when they speak their native language, even if it isn't subtitled. I don't know, just makes it seem less type-cast and more real. Obviously they are going to hire people who speak and look like Vietnamese in a 'Nam movie if they have to speak Vietnamese rather than people like those old John Wayne indians which were shoe polish coated white guys whooping in the back ground riding western saddles covered with indian blankets. When they spoke, they sounded like they just came out of the Bronx or Harvard.

So, do you prefer that non-English speakers in non-English speaking situations speak their native language in a movie, or would you prefer the accented English?

interesting topic, my friend just rented "enemy at the gate" and it seemed that every single actor had a british accent.... and there aren't supposed to be brits in the first place! it's about the battle over stalingrad, between the germans and russians.

great movie anyway. go rent it!

he also rented "ravenous"...now that movie was fucked up!

 

[sexy-girl]

its because there british actors silly man

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

There was a scene in Good Morning Vietnam where the bar exploded and the gay guy hot for Walter Kronkite's ankles was going on and on in Vietnmese.

That was Walter Brennan.

Hey, you just reminded me of somthing (sorry to change the subject here for a second). But I have this silly I Run Star Trek thread going about how I altered one of the movies with my comment card after a screening. I just remembered that I did the same thing with "Good Morning Vietnam". I saw an early screening before all the color correcting and music was chosen, and I wrote that I didn't like the ending because J.T. Walsh's character (the asshole Sargeant) beats Robin Williams and never gets his comeupance. When the movie opened a new scene had been added where Walsh is sent to some hellhole for being "mean". See, the pen is mightier than the sword, or, in my case, the stubby number 2 penicl with no eraser is mightier than the sword.

Okay, back to subtitles...

 

[KillerMuffin]

Good call, Dixon.

Brennen, damn. I must have Kronkite on the brain.

"I just want to say to Roosevelt Lee Roosevelt, what it is, what it was, what it shall be. The weather today will be hot and shitty..."

 

[Pokerman]

"The weather out there today is hot and shitty with continued hot and shitty in the afternoon. Tomorrow a chance of continued crappy with a pissy weatherfront coming down from the north. Basically, it's hotter than a snake's ass in a wagon rut."

"Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause of the leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P."

"The Mississippi River broke through a protective dike today. What is a protective dike? Is it a large woman that says 'Don't go near there! Don't go down by the river!' ...No, we can't say 'dyke' on the air, we can't even say 'lesbian' anymore, it's 'women in comfortable shoes.'"

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

"There she is again! Speed up, check her stamina."

 

[KillerMuffin]

"Well, because you go into the jungle, I can't SEE you! You know, its like wearing stripes and plaid! For me, I want to do something different. You know, if you go in the jungle, make a statement! If you're going to fight, CLASH!"

 

[Pokerman]

"You are in more dire need of a blowjob than any white man in history."

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

"Now that's about as good a polka as you're ever going to hear."

 

[Pokerman]

"'Captain Hauk sucks the sweat off of a dead mans balls.' I have no idea what that means, but it seems very negative to me"

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

"I recognize that. That is humor."

 

[YoungGun69]

Wasn't Good Morning Vietnam based on a true story?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Yes -- but wildly reassembled.

"Let me ask you something. Can you right now right this second say something funny?"

 

[Pokerman]

"What does three up and three down mean to you, airman?"

"End of an inning?"