Thoughts on illegal immigration.

[ottohauser1977]

I have mixed feelings about this issue. Part of me is annoyed that I went to all of this legal effort to get naturalized, while they just go over the border. On the other hand, I am a citizen and they are not, so they do not reap the full benefits of immigration, so in a sense they are already being punished.

Add to this sweatshop labor, and only the fact of how horrid things must be in Mexico for them to prefer such conditions makes this seem like a reward for their crimes.

Amnesty...that may go too far, true, if taken to a certain extent. But is it so bad to ease the immigration laws in the first place to make it unnecessary for people to break the law in order to enter this great country? I am not advocating "open borders", as some would say. I understand the need to keep out criminals, lunatics, and terrorists. But most immigrants are just peasants, seeking a better life. I am not sure how much all of them know of the U.S. immigration laws. I was different, but then I am from a civilized, totally literate European country with First World technology and decent laws and regulations governing labor conditions.

But I don't want to just open the border and let everyone in. Where is the middle ground, the decent compromise that keeps the floodgates closed, but lets in the "huddled masses, breathing, yearning to be free"?

There is a fine line between preserving border control and outright xenophobia. Then again, my native country has no place to judge, given its discrimination against Turkish and Kurdish refugees. And that's just what the Mexicans are, I think. Refugees, just like Cubans and Haitians, from a catastrophic situation at home.

 

[matriarch]

I am a late-middle aged British woman, with no criminal record, no debts, I don't do drugs, have worked all my life, pay my taxes, etc., brought up two children to be sensitive, hard working citizens, but I would be hard-pushed to be allowed to emmigrate to the States legally. We looked it up on the immigration site, and I don't tick enough boxes. My crime? I happen to be married to another woman, legally, in UK. An American who left her home, gave up everything she had to come here so we could be together. We jumped through all the hoops, did everything we had to, and now 2 years after our marriage she is now a legal resident of the UK, with 'indefinite leave to remain'. Basically, as long as she doesn't call attention to herself in a bad way, she can come and go in and out of the UK for the rest of her life and stay as long as she likes. She is not a citizen, I would never ask that of her.

But, if we wanted to live in the States as a couple (which we did, and still would) we can't. I don't think even in those states that have partnership/marriage for same sex couples, our relationship, which is recognised as legal in the rest of Europe, South Africa, Canada and one or two other places, does not exist in USA, so to emigrate there it would have to be as an individual. And without a job to go to, already offered, and somewhere to live, or proof of some kind of independent income, the ability to buy healthcare....not going to happen.

So, if I, a middle class, educated, moderately affluent have no hope of getting in, what chance poor immigrants who just want to live a better life?? I completely understand why they do it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OTTO

The solution to the immigrant problem is exploitation.

I'd start a war somewhere...say...Vietnam, and when the illegals are caught put them in my army and fly them to wherever the war is.

 

[Guest]

I sympathize with people who are merely looking to make better lives for themselves and their families.

I'm not particularly a student of history, but I'm not aware of any country that has been able to survive unchecked, permanent immigration with its national identity intact.

From what reading I've done (and this is a generalization that undoubtedly has some exceptions), the major problem in developing countries is rampant corruption at the governmental level; governments work for the benefit of the few, and most foreign aid never reaches its intended recipients or accomplishes what it was intended to do.

Regretably, from a long-term perspective, the only solution may be to seal the U.S. borders (and yes, I'm aware of what a logistical, financial, and political nightmare that would be). At present, we're in essence acting as a safety valve, bleeding off internal pressure to keep various countries' political "pots" from boiling over and forcing real, lasting change.

Another way of saying that there are no good solutions to this mess--only an array of unpalatable solutions.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

GNOMEDEPLUME

If America, or any nation, unleashed the creative and demonstrative genius of its people immigration wouldnt matter; there would be plenty for all. But most modern nations ration jobs and opportunities, to benefit special interests. Consequently jobs get sent overseas or given to illegals.

 

[Guest]

GNOMEDEPLUME

If America, or any nation, unleashed the creative and demonstrative genius of its people immigration wouldnt matter; there would be plenty for all. But most modern nations ration jobs and opportunities, to benefit special interests. Consequently jobs get sent overseas or given to illegals.

James, I generally agree with your points. But, as vast as this country is, and with all the resources it contains, we're short on fresh water. There's not enough to support a greatly expanded population. Yes, technical fixes can be brought into play, but that takes time. I'm still in favor of a controlled immigration policy.

And, my comment about national identity not withstanding unchecked immigration stands. Evolving a national identity is one thing; having it drowned is another. This is not a peculiarly American thing--I've read the same comments coming from Britain, France, Russia, Iraq, and several others.

 

[Guest]

James, I generally agree with your points. But, as vast as this country is, and with all the resources it contains, we're short on fresh water. There's not enough to support a greatly expanded population. Yes, technical fixes can be brought into play, but that takes time. I'm still in favor of a controlled immigration policy.

And, my comment about national identity not withstanding unchecked immigration stands. Evolving a national identity is one thing; having it drowned is another. This is not a peculiarly American thing--I've read the same comments coming from Britain, France, Russia, Iraq, and several others.

You generally agree with his points?

 

[ThinkerLover]

Approximately 12 million undocumented immigrants are living in the United States.

The immigration laws on the book says that there is no accountability to immigrants by government officials - i.e. you can live in the United States, pay taxes, pay immigration attorney fees, renew your visa again and again for years and be denied naturalization because a lackey at ICE doesn't like the color of your skin or your last name and neither the immigrant nor their family - even citizens - can demand to know why.

There are countless stories of corruption in this system including a gentleman in the Midwest who paid for his nice new mansion and a new kitchen with a bright and shiny deal with Saudi Arabian Anti-American groups to allow their operatives naturalization. But concrete workers, no way - they're depleting America's resources.

Now, the problem remains that these people are a functioning part of our society - but we have no idea who they are. More than half a million leads to ICE for visa overstayers go completely uninvestigated, every year.

Why? Indentured Servitude. The Republican Government is convinced that America cannot be sustained without slaves. So they are allowed in with tourist visas and work visas and then they never go away. THis is the actual "come over the border" procedure that everyone talks about. They come to visit their cousin living in San Diego or Tucson or here in Phoenix and when their visa expires, they stay put and wait for the man to smoke them out. When he doesn't, they get jobs and enroll their kids in school.

Conservative estimates say that if the Government extended a limited-time pardon to visa-overstayers with clean criminal records who are willing to abide by the law, we could identify and document 40% of undocumented immigrants overnight by simply making them legal resident aliens. Literally a 6-month turnaround.

The remaining 60% are the ones with some explaining to do. These are the ones who need to come forward and be considered on a case-by-case basis. It will take a while but it can be done. And if they are told, "we just want to separate out the ones who are willing to work hard and abide by the laws and what happened between then and now is behind us" I can guarantee you that another 30-40% will come forward and identify themselves as undocumented for a chance at a path to citizenship.

Why? Citizens have a right to minimum wage pay. Citizens have a right to trial by a jury of their peers. Citizens can claim Social Security benefits, own houses in their own names that can be passed to their children. If you offered these people a second chance pass at a fine of $5,000 each, they'd take it.

Imagine if the imigration problem were reduced by 80%.

Then, there must be accountability in the ICE system. This is not a national security issue, it's an American Values issue. There must be someone that immigrants can appeal to and say "Hey, I did everything that i was supposed to. Why am I being treated with a different standard?" and be given a chance to make their case heard in a court of law. It's just the American thing to do.

Then find the remaining 20-30% and round them up and ship them home, that's fine.

Anyway, thanks for reading my enormous rant.

Peace.

 

[Guest]

You generally agree with his points?

Just in his quoted post, below, not as a rule. Sorry--need more coffee.

American corporations sent jobs overseas to cut overhead and return more "value" to shareholders, as well as to line the pockets of management in the form of bonuses and increased stock value. It was a greedy, selfish, shortsighted policy that is proving to be a public relations nightmare.

I lived in Germany for some years and heard a lot of discontent about the resident Turks, who had taken jobs that the Germans apparently felt were "beneath" them. It worked reasonably well for everyone until the numbers of immigrants hit a certain level (leading to "Germany for Germans" rumblings). It got worse when unemployment levels rose generally.

If America, or any nation, unleashed the creative and demonstrative genius of its people immigration wouldnt matter; there would be plenty for all. But most modern nations ration jobs and opportunities, to benefit special interests. Consequently jobs get sent overseas or given to illegals.

 

[cloudy]

I agree with what you said about there not being an easy way to solve the problem, but I have a quibble with this:

I'm not particularly a student of history, but I'm not aware of any country that has been able to survive unchecked, permanent immigration with its national identity intact.

What national identity? There isn't any, and that's just fine with me.

 

[Guest]

I agree with what you said about there not being an easy way to solve the problem, but I have a quibble with this:



What national identity? There isn't any, and that's just fine with me.

Obviously, I disagree, but I suspect neither of us would find the other's arguments convincing.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I'm not aware of any country that has been able to survive unchecked, permanent immigration with its national identity intact.

That's true. Just ask the Algonquins.

 

[R. Richard]

OTTO

The solution to the immigrant problem is exploitation.

I'd start a war somewhere...say...Vietnam, and when the illegals are caught put them in my army and fly them to wherever the war is.

You might like to fight alongside men who have been 'pressganged,' I would not. I value my life.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

RICHARD.

The jury is still out with regards to conscripts. During the Civil War draftees did poorly; in Vietnam they generally did well.

Someone did a study of Vietnam Era draftees and concluded that draftees actually performed better than volunteers.

But the method to my madness is to discourage illegal immigrants.

 

[OhMissScarlett]

What national identity? There isn't any, and that's just fine with me.

Yeah, what national identity? My ancestors got booted out of England for trash talking The King and then they jumped off a boat here, displaced some Native Americans, started farming and lost their accents about 300 years ago....
I think that actually makes me an illegal immigrant.

 

[midwestyankee]

Yeah, what national identity? My ancestors got booted out of England for trash talking The King and then they jumped off a boat here, displaced some Native Americans, started farming and lost their accents about 300 years ago....
I think that actually makes me an illegal immigrant.

Only if you let your membership in the DAR lapse.

 

[CharleyH]

I have mixed feelings about this issue. Part of me is annoyed that I went to all of this legal effort to get naturalized, while they just go over the border. On the other hand, I am a citizen and they are not, so they do not reap the full benefits of immigration, so in a sense they are already being punished.

My only thought on this subject is who made the boundaries? Free world? Pfft.

 

[ottohauser1977]

Well, if you're to have a nation-state, you need a national identity of some sort, a common culture that can unite the diversity of subcultural minorities. Otherwise, you're a fragmented empire, and such things are doomed to fall.

The alternative is to establish a global state, and given the prominent role of certain detestable regimes, I can understand the objection. Besides, I've recently sworn an oath to uphold this country. I'm not ready to change allegiances again and become a "world citizen" or some other nonsense. The notion of limited sovereignty reminds me too much of the Brezhnev Doctrine and the consequent violations of German, Czech, and Polish independence. Internationalism is overrated. I have seen it lead to a very destructive hegemony.

 

[Boxlicker101]

RICHARD.

The jury is still out with regards to conscripts. During the Civil War draftees did poorly; in Vietnam they generally did well.

Someone did a study of Vietnam Era draftees and concluded that draftees actually performed better than volunteers.

But the method to my madness is to discourage illegal immigrants.

One of the teasons for that might be that, during the Civil War and WW1 and 2, the unwilling went along and did poorly. In Vietnam, the unwilling dodged the draft, one way or another. The ones who actually ended up taken were those who didn't mind all that much. I don't mean they liked the idea, I just mean they didn't dislike it all that much.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Well, if you're to have a nation-state, you need a national identity of some sort, a common culture that can unite the diversity of subcultural minorities. Otherwise, you're a fragmented empire, and such things are doomed to fall.

The alternative is to establish a global state, and given the prominent role of certain detestable regimes, I can understand the objection. Besides, I've recently sworn an oath to uphold this country. I'm not ready to change allegiances again and become a "world citizen" or some other nonsense. The notion of limited sovereignty reminds me too much of the Brezhnev Doctrine and the consequent violations of German, Czech, and Polish independence. Internationalism is overrated. I have seen it lead to a very destructive hegemony.

I don't know about this...the United States, although it is a country - a nation-state - it actually a conglomeration widely varied cultures, almost on a state by state basis. The only thing that keep them together, except for that little ruckus back around 1861, is the belief in the constitution, which limits the power of the central government - although this is becoming less and less true - and gives most of the power to govern to the states themselves. Therefore the US really doesn't have common culture, except that they are all Americans. I myself am a Midwestern American, although I have lived in many different cities in various states. Even the major city I currently live near, itself has a variety cultures.

 

[jeninflorida]

We need a program like Canada has and make it safe for workers to come in, do work that American's don't want to do (well maybe next year when unemployment hits 10%), provide clean housing, and a safe ride home. I've met several people and couples that are illegal and when you hear their story about coming to the US...there just has to be a better way.

granted I jumped from your issue on naturalization, and I feel that he/she needs to go through the process and not be rewarded for breaking the law

I have mixed feelings about this issue. Part of me is annoyed that I went to all of this legal effort to get naturalized, while they just go over the border. On the other hand, I am a citizen and they are not, so they do not reap the full benefits of immigration, so in a sense they are already being punished.

Add to this sweatshop labor, and only the fact of how horrid things must be in Mexico for them to prefer such conditions makes this seem like a reward for their crimes.

Amnesty...that may go too far, true, if taken to a certain extent. But is it so bad to ease the immigration laws in the first place to make it unnecessary for people to break the law in order to enter this great country? I am not advocating "open borders", as some would say. I understand the need to keep out criminals, lunatics, and terrorists. But most immigrants are just peasants, seeking a better life. I am not sure how much all of them know of the U.S. immigration laws. I was different, but then I am from a civilized, totally literate European country with First World technology and decent laws and regulations governing labor conditions.

But I don't want to just open the border and let everyone in. Where is the middle ground, the decent compromise that keeps the floodgates closed, but lets in the "huddled masses, breathing, yearning to be free"?

There is a fine line between preserving border control and outright xenophobia. Then again, my native country has no place to judge, given its discrimination against Turkish and Kurdish refugees. And that's just what the Mexicans are, I think. Refugees, just like Cubans and Haitians, from a catastrophic situation at home.

 

[NoJo]

Refugees, just like Cubans and Haitians, from a catastrophic situation at home.

Just wanted to point out that the situation in Cuba is not catastrophic. People don't have money, or freedom to elect or reject their government, but they don't live in fear of starvation, torture, disease etc. Also they're pretty literate end well-educated compared to Americans! And they have a better basic health service.

 

[jeninflorida]

really? I don't think that one can compair life in the us vs life in cuba. granted, i'm sure its less stressful living in cuba

Just wanted to point out that the situation in Cuba is not catastrophic. People don't have money, or freedom to elect or reject their government, but they don't live in fear of starvation, torture, disease etc. Also they're pretty literate end well-educated compared to Americans! And they have a better basic health service.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Just wanted to point out that the situation in Cuba is not catastrophic. People don't have money, or freedom to elect or reject their government, but they don't live in fear of starvation, torture, disease etc. Also they're pretty literate end well-educated compared to Americans! And they have a better basic health service.

Actually, many of them do live in fear of toture, preceded by arrest and accusation of being a "counterrevolutionary" or some such thing.

 

[R. Richard]

RICHARD.

The jury is still out with regards to conscripts. During the Civil War draftees did poorly; in Vietnam they generally did well.

Someone did a study of Vietnam Era draftees and concluded that draftees actually performed better than volunteers.

But the method to my madness is to discourage illegal immigrants.

The problem is that draftees in the USA during the Vietnam war mostly spoke some form of American. A platoon leader could issue orders and then make damn sure the orders were understood. This last procedure doesn't work well when some of the men speak only Mexican, some speak only Vietnamese, some speak only Jiido and some speak only Mandarin. Expecting a few/single person(s) to translate for the rest of the non-American speakers has a military term. The term is suicide.