Thoughts about raising children in the lifestyle?

[MissTaken]

I have recently been engaging in correspondance with a Dom. He is very traditional and formal in his expectations and interpretation of the lifestyle.

We were discussing children. His suggestion was that they could be raised "in the lifestyle." We didn't finish the discussion as the children interrupted me, but I wondered what everyone's take on this theory might be.


What I did gather from him, is that the children could and should be raised in a patriarchal family.

I have had many thoughts and ideas concerning patriarchal families, BDSM and children over the last few days. I thought perhaps we could toss it around a bit.

Editted to clarify for anyone who doesn't read the entire thread, I am NOT considering raising my children with whips and chains or "Yes, Sir," "No, Sir." This thread was started for DISCUSSION'S sake!

 

[monster666]

Good lord. Offhand, I'd say no. Discipline is one thing, BDSM is another. My first impulse is that the idea seems so wrong on so many levels that it boggles the mind. But I am going to think about this one and post again - maybe.

I have recently been engaging in correspondance with a Dom. He is very traditional and formal in his expectations and interpretation of the lifestyle.

We were discussing children. His suggestion was that they could be raised "in the lifestyle." We didn't finish the discussion as the children interrupted me, but I wondered what everyone's take on this theory might be.


What I did gather from him, is that the children could and should be raised in a patriarchal family.

I have had many thoughts and ideas concerning patriarchal families, BDSM and children over the last few days. I thought perhaps we could toss it around a bit.

 

[monster666]

Okay, some more thought on this:

* I relate BSDM to sex play. The question of bringing children into the mix is appalling to me, not to mention illegal almost everywhere. So assuming he wasn't going there, we take the sex out of BDSM and what are we left with?

* There needs to be at least one dominate parent for every child. It is my opinion that children do need to obey without question in the early part of their lives. Is this a D/s relationship? No. It's not consentual. It's required of the child by the parent.

* Bondage used as a means of controlling children is not acceptable, IMHO.

* Sadism as a means of anything directed as children is unconscionable, as is encouraging masochism in our children.

* I am not sure I want to teach my children to be dominate or submissive beyond obedient to real authority. When old enough, I'd even like them to respectfully QUESTION real authority.

* I think this Dom may well be a real screwball. This is dicy ground at best.

 

[Cirrus]

I interpret this another way...not as using BDSM to discipline kids, or involve them in sexual situations (the thought of either makes me almost physically ill), but to inform them about it and to help them understand this particular way of life.

BDSM isn't wrong. I just "came out" to a close friend, and she gave me The Look, like surely I must be fucking animals and letting my Dom amputate key body parts and beat the shit out of me. She just didn't understand what it meant to submit to someone and still have all the self respect, free will, and such that you did before, if not more.

I think it would be great if kids could be taught that anything not illegal done between 2 consenting adults, if they both mutually enjoy it and communicate about it, is just fine...basically that we all enjoy different things.

Explaining how and why the submissive partner "serves" the other, what the dominant parnter gets from the experience, the need for respect, etc to a child old enough to understand would be a good thing. Think about it. No too long ago no one spoke of it if you had a step brother or step sister. Too taboo....no, once widowed or divorced, you must not remarry, and if feel the absolute NEED to, no kids that aren't yours.

But OTOH, if this Dom is referring to using BDSM to discpline kids, involve them in sex acts, or anything else explict, or training them to be sub or Dom, using BDSM in any form as in an abusive manner towards kids, then yeah...he's one shrimp short of a seafood platter. To say the least.

 

[WriterDom]

I met a woman once who claimed to be raised to be a submissive. I never met her in person, but, as far as I could tell, she seemed to be pretty well adjusted otherwise. In many cultures, while it's not called bdsm, to raise women as submissive is the norm.

I don't think I would purposely expose my kids to it. And I'd be very careful about bringing a Dom into your life who would even bring up the question of your children. I'll hope you'll continue this thread once you have a chance to talk to him futher.

 

[Lancecastor]

Rephrase & Clarify, please.

I think the question needs to be rephrased and clarified.

That being said:

I think children should be brought up to respect all people as equals regardless of their differences;

To learn how to operate as individuals effectively in society, which requires self respect, respect for others, and awareness of the norms society has agreed on in order for us to live together in community without causing harm;

To learn about sex & intimacy as they become sexually aware;

And, when properly educated in the ways of respect, self awareness, society, life, intimacy, money, business, politics, spirituality, health, sport, humour, the arts and the other basics required to be aware, alive, and productive on their own...;

To see them off into their own lives....so they can make life choices for themselves as they see fit based on their training by their primary care-givers, educators and other support mechanisms while growing up....;

And to continue loving them regardless of their adult choices advising them as requested or as is advisable.

~~~~~~~~

To raise children in "the lifestyle" (whatever this Dom really means by that) might be the same as teaching your children that there is 1 Way & 1 Way Only about religion, race, creed, (dis)abilities, politics, etc...you name it.

That is...as soon as you raise children in a non-inclusive way....you increase the chances of limiting their ability to choose and live their own lives with free will, free of shame, guilt and all the other crap this board's posts and society at large is full of by way of "issues" ........because of the way they were brought up.

In conclusion, this Dom guy sounds at first pass like a selfish, narrow minded and potentially dangerous loser, one I wouldn't spend 5 seconds with after hearing those words....but the question does require rephrasing and clarity to know for sure in my book.

Lance

 

[morninggirl5]

My first thought reading Miss T's post was that this Dom wants the D/s to be 24-7 with the children realizing that he is the Dom and makes all decisions regarding the family.

As WD says, there are many cultures that raise their girls to be submissive women and the men make all the decisions in the family. I have come into contact with several families who have immigrated here form one of those cultures and while it works wonderfully in their own culture, there are inevitably problems for those families in our culture.

For example, boys raised in those types of situations often do not respect any female authority figure. Yes, the teacher is chiming in again.

For the women who work outside the home, employers are often very uncooperative when the husband makes all requests concerning the job. More than once, i've heard managers say, "I'm not talking to your husband anymore. You work here, if you have a problem, you open your mouth and talk for yourself."
The comments made behind the employees back were even worse.


I know i couldn't be in a relationship in that manner. Being a parent is the most important responsibility in the world, transcending my desires so that i do the absolute best for my (future) children.

 

[MissTaken]

Monster ? His reference to raising them in the lifestyle did not mean that lifestyle play techniques would be used to discipline. However, other techniques would....misbehavior might yield a spank or the relinquishing of a privilege or favored toy.

This Dom does the same with his subs.

And to all, these are my children we are talking about. I could never engage in a long term relationship with someone who didn't agree with my parenting philosophies or at least, support me in my efforts. Call it the mother bear instinct. Call it the social work background...regardless, that is how I feel.

I do expect my children to respect all adults.
I do find comfort and relief in giving up the power to make decisions...mostly, usually....
But, I don't want my children to see a disempowered mother. I want my daughter to be able to stand on her own two feet and use her will and drive to find who she is. If she grows up and decides she is submissive, so be it. It is her choice.


Interesting?

 

[Lancecastor]

Having clarified...

(edited by LC)

....misbehavior might yield a spank or the relinquishing of a privilege or favored toy.

He is Dutch. I am not familiar with family systems from his culture, but wonder if that has anything to do with it.

I.too, have a friend who was raised in the lifestyle. AFter her Master/husband passed away, she was at loose ends in terms of caring for herself.

Interesting?

All interesting, yes.

I believe that hitting children is just wrong; there are oodles of ways to discipline children towards appropriate behavior without hitting them...libraries and bookstores and websites are filled with them and I simply don't accept any rationale that suggests it's the right and proper or beneficial thing to do, ever.

Your submissively raised widow friend raises the interesting extrapolation of my earlier comments on people who go into adult life having been raised in a restrictive or what I referred to as a "One Way" environment. Once outside the rather limiting way she's lived most her life, she's been a bit lost, and found herself not being able to function in broad society. She's lucky to have you as a friend, a person with an appreciation of where she's been and where she now "is".

I'm not aware of anything inherant to Dutch culture generally that would make this fellow think it's okay to hit children or be a proponent of such negative child rearing (no pun) practices.



LC

 

[cymbidia]

I've been slow to answer this because i wanted to think, to reflect, to understand what caused my knee-jerk NO! reaction at the suggestion that children be raised "in the lifestyle", a term i took to mean within a very traditional, patriarchial family unit.

I am a submissive. It colors my everyday view of the world, of who i am, of what i do in response to others, be they lifestylers or not. I do *not* submit to everyone - actually, i submit to only one person - but that doesn't ever ever ever ever make me less of a submissive.

However, my submission is a thing of the adult world.

It is not something appropriate for my children to see or know about. Not in this culture, at this time in history, in my part of northern California. It would confuse them, cause too much discontinuity between what is "normal" and what they see me doing in my life.

As thier mother, and i'm for sure another mother bear kinda mother, btw, i have to do what i can i can to help my two grow up smart and strong and capable in an incresaingly complex world. They have enough to do being children - and one of them is a teenager now, exceedingly complex and confusing years for all of us. To add that which is of the adult world to the puzzle pieces they're sorting doesn't seem fair, in some way.

I will not handicap my kids by giving them that which they shouldn't yet have. In my mind, giving them bits of my life in the hope they'll come to understand BDSM as something acceptable (or not-terrible or normal-for-me or just another lifestyle choice, like all the gays and lesbians we have all over the place here in the San Francisco Bay area) is overburdening them with adult stuff.

We are open with each other.

They know i know a lot about sexual things. Thier friends all know it, too.

When they want to know, they will ask me.
When they ask me, i'll tell them - and tell them the truth, too, or as much as i can tell them without causing a sudden and disorienting rift between thier perceptions/understainding of "normalcy" and my relevations.

If i see either of them becoming intolerant at all, i will stop that, of course - intolerant of our kind as well as other forms of intolerance. (My daughter, a child of immense privilege, once said something to me about "poor kids". I most definitely didn't like the tone in her voice when she said her piece. Soon after that conversation, she and i went to work in a Salvation Army kitchen once a week for two months so she could get a good look at the there-for-the-grace-of-god-go-i kinda people at whom she'd sneered. She was suitably chagrined. Since then, she's taken it upon herself to volunteer time weekly at local not-for-profit organizations that benefit the down-on-thier-luck in our society. I'm proud of her.)

I don't think anything at all of BDSM matters is suitable for inclusion into the lives of children.

 

[SpectreT]

I avoided this one, too....

Because Miss T and I are friends, and I've met her kids.

I think lots more clarification of this is in order before you hear anything from me on the topic. In the sense of "If you can't say anything nice......"

And I've got nothing nice to say right now about this.

 

[lilfrk]

Re: Re: Thoughts about raising children in the lifestyle?

Good lord. Offhand, I'd say no. Discipline is one thing, BDSM is another. My first impulse is that the idea seems so wrong on so many levels that it boggles the mind. But I am going to think about this one and post again - maybe.

What he said but I'm not going to post again. The whole idea scares the living hell right out of me.

 

[monster666]

I still disagree with the notion that any part of BDSM is for children. There is no component of it's that fits well with rearing children. The type of submission a parent expects of a child is not anything like a D/s relationship. It's far from consentual in most cases. While I'll concede there could be similarties regarding discipline, it should never be BDSM, and certainly not anything resembling "the lifestyle". I don't think having a dominate personality around necessarily constitutes BDSM, either.

Monster ? His reference to raising them in the lifestyle did not mean that lifestyle play techniques would be used to discipline. However, other techniques would....misbehavior might yield a spank or the relinquishing of a privilege or favored toy.

This Dom does the same with his subs.



WD: He is Dutch. I am not familiar with family systems from his culture, but wonder if that has anything to do with it.


And to all, these are my children we are talking about. I could never engage in a long term relationship with someone who didn't agree with my parenting philosophies or at least, support me in my efforts. Call it the mother bear instinct. Call it the social work background...regardless, that is how I feel.

I do expect my children to respect all adults.
I do find comfort and relief in giving up the power to make decisions...mostly, usually....
But, I don't want my children to see a disempowered mother. I want my daughter to be able to stand on her own two feet and use her will and drive to find who she is. If she grows up and decides she is submissive, so be it. It is her choice.

I.too, have a friend who was raised in the lifestyle. her family was of European heritage. AFter her Master/husband passed away, she was at loose ends in terms of caring for herself. She is bright, cultured and educated. She learned quickly but needs me to motivate her and remind her that she is can speak out. She can take care of things.

Interesting?
She is a wonderful lady and friend.

 

[WillowPuss]

My gut instinct is a big flat NO!

I have two teens living at home. The only evidence they EVER see of our lifestyle is me deferring many descisions to my husband/master.
My daughetr recently told me something (quite shocking and horrid) and as she didn't specifically tell me it was confidential, I shared with Master at the first opportunity. She was amazed that I had told him and I just said that we do NOT have secrets between us.


My husband always left the disciplining of the children up to me. Mainly because I was with them almost every minute of their waking day, but partly because he was scared that if HE disciplined them by giving them a single smack, he would do it too hard or something.


I suppose, it is left to the two adult indiviuals involved ... but I have to stand with my opening.

 

[MissTaken]

Wow. While the consensus is a resounding "No", I also find that in answering the question, we are revealing many diverse ideologies concerning out lifestyle.

Well, a good thing as it is about being individual pleasure and interpretation.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Even if you stripped away the sexual stuff, what is left in the lifestyle?

Dominance and submission, and the power exchange.

Power exchange is not something you can do with kids. Parents necessarily have power and children necessarily don't. As they grow older, parents give them more of their power so they can learn to become adults with power over themselves. That way they can leave the nest and be well-adjust people who fit into our society on their own terms.

Teaching a child to exchange power either to be submissive or to be dominant is to handicap them in our society. Training them to be someone who requires a total power exchange in a relationship isn't fair to them. It would be tantamount to raising your child to be one career. Training that child to be a mechanic and only a mechanic because that's the family career.

It's wrong in any industrialized nation. Sexuality is something adults should choose on their own, along with careers, likes, and dislikes.

Teaching a child to be a dominant or a submissive is likewise wrong in our industrialized nations. To do so is forcing them into roles that they may not have chosen on their own. It's also teaching them things that they are emotionally mature enough to handle responsibly.

Think of it this way, BDSMers grew up in a 'Nilla house with 'Nilla parents. They forced their 'Nilla sexuality and lifestyle on the BDSMer. Or they forced their prudish notions on the BDSMer. Did that BDSMer like it? Or does that BDSMer maybe still resent that a little at times?

BDSM and kids don't mix. You can't take a relationship style that's solely between lovers and make it a part of the parent-child relationship. You can't even do that with 'Nilla sex.

I also happen to know that Miss T is a smart and caring woman, and most likely a wonderful mother. This is no reflection on her because I am fully aware that she only brought this up as an interesting discussion. Just like all of us are. No one blames Miss T and no one is assuming that Miss T is doing this to her children.

 

[DustyWolfe]

I know of some people that have raised their children around the lifestyle and to understand the lifestyle without exposing them to any of the sexual aspects of it. For example, one of the owners of public play place letting her grandchildren play in the dungeon when no one else is there. They may no know what everything is but at least later on they will not fear it.

Our eldest daughter understands many aspects of the lifestyle. Granted she is 14 going on 18 and graduating high school next year. She is quite advanced and if she asks questions we answer them honestly. She knows what a Mistress is and such and is accepting of the idea that Jen has a Domme and she knows that outside of mine and Jen's everyday relationship that Jen is my Mistress. I will say that the girl knows a bit too much for her age, I don't know what she has been reading but she is pretty clued in.

The reason why she knows part of this at least that a certain person is Jen's Domme is because she asked. The information was not volunteered. I needed to clarify that.

We won't play around the children of course, that is what will be done while they are at school or at the grandparent's on Friday nights.

I do foresee however, our eldest being in the lifestyle once she goes off to college. I told Jen "Just wait, one of these days our daughter is either going to come home with a collar or a bag full of toys." She told me to bite my tongue lol

 

[MissTaken]

I also happen to know that Miss T is a smart and caring woman, and most likely a wonderful mother. This is no reflection on her because I am fully aware that she only brought this up as an interesting discussion. Just like all of us are. No one blames Miss T and no one is assuming that Miss T is doing this to her children.

Thanks KM!

You make me blush.

Perhaps, I wasn't clear enough. Am I or have I brought BDSM into how I parent my children? NO! Will I? NO.

Submission isn't something I would ever encourage for daughter or son. While I find that is something I enjoy, need, and am learning to embrace, the journey is difficult, full of heart break and anxst.

NO. I don't want that for them. What mother would?

And in terms of dominance and submission ~notice the lower case~, my children are developing those personality traits on their own, as do we all.

There is dominance and submission in every relationship in a non BDSM , asexual fashion. There is always a stronger personality in any relationship. And sometimes, in a true partnership, both parties are flexible enough to utilize both traits to meet the need of the other.

Yes. I want my children to know when to be dominant in their interaction and I want them to know when to submit, compromise or say simply, I am needy.

NO! I don't want them entangled in the lifestyle that is becoming so much a part of my life.

 

[susan__32]

i am a married mother of two..

I dominate my husband

my two sons are 14 and 13..

while they are not exposed to the sexual aspects of the lifestyle

i have taught them to honor and obey women...

i enjoy the pampering all three give me

--susan

 

[Ebonyfire]

Raising Kids "in the lifestyle"

It is not so unusual. Since D/s and/or BDSM is not all about sex, I see the subject of lufestyle differently. It is the dynamics of the family. How you you raise children in a vanilla household? You lock your bedroom doors and lock away your toys, if you have them.

It is also not always representative of a patriarchal relationship either. I know several households that are Dom/femsub, Poly, Femdom (like mine), and any other combination you can imagine. Children adapt. You do not expose them to the fetish aspects of your relationships just as you will not expose them to any other inappropriate adult behaviour. And by inappropriate I mean behavior that should not be exhibited to impressionable minds.

Children can get used to families having houseboys, and maids, and friends who visit. I know one femdom family where both boys and girls get used to the fact that daddy does all the house work. Big deal.

The children if these families mirror most familes, in that some children grow up to be successful, and some are deadbeats.

I have a fifteen year old in my household, and she is used to me barking orders. I do not think it will phase her to see taivsh doing all the "women's work." It may impower her.

Ebony

 

[Ebonyfire]

We were discussing children. His suggestion was that they could be raised "in the lifestyle."

In the long run, Miss T it is what you think that matters. If I were in your shoes, I would ask him just what does he mean by "in the lifestyle."

There are lots opinions about this, but I have yet to see a family that teaches children BDSM. I have heard talk about it on other lists.

Ask him to find out just what he means before assuming anything.

Just My penny's worth. As always, I am wishing you the best.

Eb

 

[perks]

BDSM lifestyle is a choice, a personal decision for each participant. "raising" a child/children in the lifestyle negates their choice. Especially if they're only allowed to be "sub" to the Dom.

How would a person raised in a submissive household be able to act any other way without rebelling or acting out in a disconcerting manner?

BDSM isn't about a patriarchal society, it's about freedom in sexuality.

 

[cymbidia]

BDSM isn't about a patriarchal society, it's about freedom in sexuality.

What she said - except it's more than just sexuality to me, it's part of who i am as a person.


And MissT?
I never for a moment thought you'd hand the raising of your kids over to someone else's ideas of how it should be done. You sacrificed too much to get them to the stability and safety they have now. You're a good mom, and good mom's question themselves and consider all angles in an effort to continue being so for thier kids.

 

[NemoAlia]

I think it's worth noting, though, that there are those who do believe that BDSM is about a patriarchal society. (They kinda turn my stomach.) I have met Doms who really do believe that all women should submit to all men. To me it seems that these people are using BDSM as an acceptable-to-the-liberals front for some extremely outdated (and, I would add, blatantly wrong) ideas. However, as long as we allow parents to raise their children as they believe is right (and do we really want to change that?), then there will be children raised 'in the lifestyle,' whether it's called BDSM or not. Kudos to the parents who question (as MissT does) how they're told they ought to act in favor of figuring out what's really best for them.

 

[DixieDom]

I believe part of the problem is that D/s means different things to different people. Many children are raised "in the lifestyle" without anyone realizing it- but so many people think of bdsm as being a form of foreplay or kink, or strictly a sexual thing, or a series of acts which are carefully negotiated and planned between strangers.

I draw a line between "D/s" and "D/s play", just like the line between "marriage" and "sex". Children can be raised in a household where the parents are married to each other without being exposed to sex, or at least learning about sex at the appropriate age and in a healthy manner. The same goes for D/s.