This will get me flamed but oh well

[Anais Dahl]

I have two sides of myself warring with me. First of all, the WTC tragedy is a terrible thing and I feel awful that those people died for no reason other than a madman's plans.

However- on the other hand, the attitude that America seems to be formulating is that America is innocent of acts of terrorism and that we are all newborns waking up to the dark reality of tragedy, war, terrorism and death.

Yet the US dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdered 140,000 women, men and children in Hiroshima and 90,000 in Nagasaki.

I am wondering why no one mourns for them. I find the attitude very confusing. I am confused and am having trouble sorting things out. I don't know weather to see my own country as a successful and democratic freedom or a very ignorant mass murderer.

 

[Freya]

It's all in how things are justified.

 

[Problem Child]

I'd be interested in hearing how one could possibly compare the two events.

 

[HeavyStick]

I have two sides of myself warring with me. First of all, the WTC tragedy is a terrible thing and I feel awful that those people died for no reason other than a madman's plans.

However- on the other hand, the attitude that America seems to be formulating is that America is innocent of acts of terrorism and that we are all newborns waking up to the dark reality of tragedy, war, terrorism and death.

Yet the US dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdered 140,000 women, men and children in Hiroshima and 90,000 in Nagasaki.

I am wondering why no one mourns for them. I find the attitude very confusing. I am confused and am having trouble sorting things out. I don't know weather to see my own country as a successful and democratic freedom or a very ignorant mass murderer.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki compared to WTC is comparing apples to kiwi fruit. From July to Sep the japanese are in a state of mourning because of the two cities. However Hiroshima and Nagasaki are singled out cause that was the use of Atomic weapons. Before the use of those bombs, there were more civilian deaths due to the cities not being able to put out the fires.

Your comparison is flawed.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed because of the manufacturing infrastructure it contained. WTC was attacked beacuse of it was viewed as the Holy Grail of Capitalism.

No comparison what so ever.

 

[sunstruck]

There is a difference between an act of war and an act of terrorism.

Look, you don't have to agree with everything the US does to be a proud American. Hell, you don't even have to be proud. Yes, there are a lot of people running around right now waving flags who don't have the slighest inkling of what those flags stand for, but that does not devalue the flag.

There's nothing wrong with questioning our gvt, or protesting it. You don't have to be conflicted. Just don't get caught up in the hoopla. Figure out what you need to do or say, figure out what you believe in to be happy. Do something to make a positive difference. It's your right to ignore the bullshit.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Re: This will get me flamed ...the US dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdered 140,000 women, men and children in Hiroshima and 90,000 in Nagasaki. I am wondering why no one mourns for them.

They're mourned.

You're not flamed.

The two situations are not at all comparable for reasons we've gone over a thousand times and I sure someone else would like to explain again.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Apples and oranges.

On a personal note though, anytime people are killed en masse is not a good thing.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Re: This will get me flamed but oh well

Apples and oranges.

On a personal note though, anytime people are killed en masse is not a good thing.

lol...way to go out on a limb there, sacto-area dude.

 

[miles]

The only alternative to dropping the bombs was an invasion of Japan. The civilian and mlitary casualties (on both sides) would have been hundreds of thousands more than those in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

 

[ksmybuttons]

I think inaction is just as damning as action. I find the whole thing very sad. I find it sad that people felt so desperate that they would do something like that which happened 1 year ago. I feel sad that our government has chosen to handle it in they way in which they have. Since the USA has set itself up as a world power, then it also has responsibilities. I don't feel it has lived up to its responsibilities to the rest of the world.

I won't compare WWII with the bombing of the WTC, but I will not let the US government and its foreign policies off the hook for it either.

I will be flamed with you, Anais.

 

[takingchances42]

I have two sides of myself warring with me. First of all, the WTC tragedy is a terrible thing and I feel awful that those people died for no reason other than a madman's plans.

However- on the other hand, the attitude that America seems to be formulating is that America is innocent of acts of terrorism and that we are all newborns waking up to the dark reality of tragedy, war, terrorism and death.

Yet the US dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdered 140,000 women, men and children in Hiroshima and 90,000 in Nagasaki.

I am wondering why no one mourns for them. I find the attitude very confusing. I am confused and am having trouble sorting things out. I don't know weather to see my own country as a successful and democratic freedom or a very ignorant mass murderer.

What about the millions of people slaughtered across Asia by Imperial Japan, in its wars of conquest? How about the million US soldiers who might have otherwise died without the use of the atomic weapons?

We as a species have a long history of wars, and bad things have always happened in wars. Fighting a war in self-defense is a very different thing from unprovoked imperial or terroristic attacks. Or would you rather be ruled by a fascist, communist or other totalitarian dictatorship right now? If it weren't for the wars we have won as a "very ignorant mass murderer" -- YOU WOULD BE RIGHT NOW. Along with Europe as a whole.

And no, this is not a flame... there just is noequivalency between the WTC and Hiroshima. In my opinion...

 

[Anais Dahl]

Thank you all for responding without flaming.

I know very little about what happened in Japan. Call me ignorant but public school (publik edukashun) does not cover it (and I wonder about that as well) so it is a subject I am not qualified to speak intelligently on. All I know is the mass of people killed. And I can't rationalize any justification for it. It could be lack of knowing, or it could be that there is no way to rationalize it. How do you rationalize killing 220,000 people?

You are right, though, the WTC is not comparable, and it was not my intention to make a comparison in events. I am simply wondering about the attitude. I wonder why the US feels little or no regret.

I read in a CNN article that the number of civilians killed by US attacks since last year outnumbers the WTC by hundreds and I don't understand that. I don't know what to make of it. I certainly do not think the US should be inactive about the WTC attack, but didn't Ghandi say "An eye for an eye only serves to make the whole world blind." ?

So, I am at an emotional war with myself. My emotions keep contridicting themselves.

I am admitting to being ingorant of many things, confused, young and bewildered.

 

[sch00lteacher]

http://prometheus.frii.com/~jenine/tb/bman/1997/burnT.jpg

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I can't rationalize any justification for it. It could be lack of knowing, or it could be that there is no way to rationalize it. How do you rationalize killing 220,000 people?

1) The War in the Pacific would have gone on for many months, even a year, as we island hopped our way to Japan, with the loss of many thousands of American lives, and many more thousands of Japanese lives. Days after the second bomb Japan surrendered, ending the war. It was justifiable. It was war. Many more people were killed by fire and conventional bombing. It was horrible, but another year of island hopping would have been worse.

2) A sovereign nation recognized by the world is also recognized as having the right to levy war, as Japan did. A theology, which is not subject to world congress, is not recognized to have that right. There is no moral comparison between Hiroshima and 9-11.

II am simply wondering about the attitude. I wonder why the US feels little or no regret.

I don't understand this at all. Are you saying Americans are happy that thousands were incinerated? Of course we mourn for them. It's war. War is horrible. Your "attitude" concern seems schoolgirlish.

I read in a CNN article that the number of civilians killed by US attacks since last year outnumbers the WTC by hundreds and I don't understand that. I don't know what to make of it. I certainly do not think the US should be inactive about the WTC attack, but didn't Ghandi say "An eye for an eye only serves to make the whole world blind." ?

Actually that was Tevye. And if India had been attacked by Russia or China while Ghandi was in power he would have fought back. What do you think he would have done? Gone on a hunger strike until the Russians went away? It's WAR, not occupation.

I am admitting to being ingorant of many things, confused, young and bewildered.

I would agree with you here.

 

[Anais Dahl]

Thanks for the flame, Mr. Carter Lee.

 

[JazzManJim]

All I know is the mass of people killed. And I can't rationalize any justification for it. It could be lack of knowing, or it could be that there is no way to rationalize it. How do you rationalize killing 220,000 people?

At the time the decision was made the Allies has two choices. Either they could use this terrible weapon in a definitive way to break the will of the Japanese people, or they could invade the Japanese home islands.

Now, when it came to defending their home, the Japanese were prepared to fight, every man, woman and child. It was taken as nearly a religious necessity. That's the power the emperor held in Japan. He was the living embodiment of the spirit of the nation and his word carried heavy weight. So when their backs were to the wall, everybody was going to fight.

It was necessary to drive Japan to the wall because their aggression, despite their heavy losses in the Pacific campaign, wasn't stopping. They were literally raping China, Burma, and Korea. Their cruelty was unmatched, even by the Nazis at the time. Our New Zealanders and Aussies on the boards can speak to that if they wish.

But there was a really big hitch. The best Allied estimates said that invading the Home Islands would cost roughly one million lives. That was likely to spiral upwards as more civilians entered the war, or if Japan stiffened to resist even more than we thought they might. That was a likelihood, but there was no way to predict how much worse it could be, so they settled on the 1,000,000 number as the safest estimate.

The justification in dropping those two bombs was that the Japanese would see that they were vastly outgunned and they would surrender. That would save an incredible number of lives.

They played the numbers game: 1,000,000 vs 220,000. The lower number was far, far more desirable.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Thanks for the flame, Mr. Carter Lee.

You'll know when you get flamed.

That's not happening.

 

[Anais Dahl]

Thank you JazzManJim.
I can understand it a little better now.

Dixon Carter Lee-
I would like to know how America mourns for the people killed in Hiroshima?

 

[Weevil]

Thank you all for responding without flaming.

I know very little about what happened in Japan. Call me ignorant but public school (publik edukashun) does not cover it (and I wonder about that as well) so it is a subject I am not qualified to speak intelligently on. All I know is the mass of people killed. And I can't rationalize any justification for it. It could be lack of knowing, or it could be that there is no way to rationalize it. How do you rationalize killing 220,000 people?

Well let me give a crack at it. I'm as anti-war and pro-life(In every sense of the word) you can be and yet, well I understand that the world doesn't play by my rules and sometimes choices have to be made which involve killing people.

It sucks, it's the world.

What bothers me about a lot of my friends on the left's condemnation of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that a huge number of innocents were killed in the firebombing of Dresden, but we never hear about it.

Why? Well it's harder to drum up tears over the deaths of Germans because Germans, for so long, have borne the brunt of WW2 criticism. But why the sympathy for the Nazi Allies? Ask an Elderly Korean how much he cries for the Japanese lost.

Do I believe the dropping of the A-Bomb was a justifiable move? It's really impossible to say. There are indications of Japanese overtures towards surrender beforehand but no stated intentions of doing so.

But in all honesty the dropping of the Bomb on Japan was just as much about giving a heads up to the Soviets as it was ending the war in the Pacific.



As to the thread I threw down a couple days ago, well, I still agree with it. Al-Qaeda has been at war with the US for a while now. Sept 11was an attack in said war(A war with people, DCL, who don't play by the rules of the international community so discussing them is ridiculous) but it's not ridiculous to remember an attack in a war.

 

[Anais Dahl]

I might seem schoolgirlish, but you seem arrogant and insulting.


That's all.

I never thought that admitting shortcomings was schoolgirlish. In fact I would say there is more maturity in that.

But no hard feelings. I am just having a bad day.

 

[JazzManJim]

I would like to know how America mourns for the people killed in Hiroshima?

Believe it or not, America honors those dead by never having used one of those weapons again.

The destruction which was unimaginable, even to those who built it, gave us a great pause about the thing we had built. We have hundreds of safety checks built into our decision-making processes that keep us in an idle or rash moment from using it again.

We honor the dead by making sure that before we kill others in that way we have no other real choice.

That won't wash with a lot of people and that's fine. I think they're deluded about the nature of both war and humanity. Honor doesn't always mean mourning. Sometimes it involves minute resolution and care.

 

[Naughty n Nice]

Re: Re: This will get me flamed but oh well

I'd be interested in hearing how one could possibly compare the two events.

DITTO

 

[Naughty n Nice]

Re: Re: This will get me flamed but oh well

Hiroshima and Nagasaki compared to WTC is comparing apples to kiwi fruit. From July to Sep the japanese are in a state of mourning because of the two cities. However Hiroshima and Nagasaki are singled out cause that was the use of Atomic weapons. Before the use of those bombs, there were more civilian deaths due to the cities not being able to put out the fires.

Your comparison is flawed.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed because of the manufacturing infrastructure it contained. WTC was attacked beacuse of it was viewed as the Holy Grail of Capitalism.

No comparison what so ever.

Laughter cures all...LoL @ kiiwi fruit!! Thank you for a necessary chuckle

 

[Anais Dahl]

Weevil-
I understand. I know war is war and there are no real rules to it. Drastic and tragic things have to happen. But it doesn't make it any easier for me to "justify" mass death- or any death to innocent people.

That is why I am confused by the way the world works.

 

[Problem Child]

Dixon Carter Lee-
I would like to know how America mourns for the people killed in Hiroshima?

This was said in a slightly different way earlier, but if you believe that Americans are happy that we had to nuke a bunch of Japanese civilians, then I feel sorry for you. We're just not that evil, at least the overwhelming majority of us aren't.

Tangential to that, the U.S. might possibly someday issue an apology for dropping the bombs on Japan, if Japan would ever officially apologize for starting the war. Having said that, I think the U.S. would be wrong to apologize, since I don't think that the people in charge at the time felt they had no other choice than to use it.

Since Japan refuses to take responsibility for starting the war I don't think they are going to get any apologies from the U.S. for nuking them anytime soon, if ever.