This should be right up Stella's...

[Zeb_Carter]

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/...le/995112--parents-keep-child-s-gender-secret

Parents keep child's gender secret
May 21, 2011

JAYME POISSON

“So it’s a boy, right?” a neighbour calls out as Kathy Witterick walks by, her four month old baby, Storm, strapped to her chest in a carrier.

See more family photos.

Each week the woman asks the same question about the baby with the squishy cheeks and feathery blond hair.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Whoo, what a lot of work-- going against the expectations of an entire world of people. I wouldn't be willing to do that. It takes over your life, your family's life.

gives me a lot to think about, thanks for the link!

 

[TE999]

There's an old expression that 'Pioneers take the arrows' (pace Cloudy) and this family is definitely pioneering. Gender confusion is part and parcel of the growth process and the final outcome is shaped by the society in which the child grows. "Only girls play with dolls," "Well bred young ladies wear dresses," used to be standard rejoinders, but GI Joe and blue jeans changed all that.

This family is definitely swimming against the tide, but good luck to them.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

OMG! This old hat idea is back? It was all the rage among "progressives" back in the '70's until brain research established that there are just as many neurological differences between male and female as there are physical. The baby will eventually force its sex/gender on the parents whether they like it or not. I hope it's a real little hard head. They deserve it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't think you read the whole article, bear. The parents know the child will choose a gender and that gender will very probably be based on its sex, they talk about that.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Idgits.

Our local paper features the mugshots of local jailbirds, and I recognized one of them today. The woman is the daughter of a client I had back in the 90s. The mother was a street prostitute and prone to relationships with violent men. The father was in prison.

Anyway, the mother was murdered on the street and the daughter went into fostercare. She's 21 years old today and already has a string of convictions.

Fruits and nuts never fall far from the tree.

 

[bronzeage]

Idgits.

Our local paper features the mugshots of local jailbirds, and I recognized one of them today. The woman is the daughter of a client I had back in the 90s. The mother was a street prostitute and prone to relationships with violent men. The father was in prison.

Anyway, the mother was murdered on the street and the daughter went into fostercare. She's 21 years old today and already has a string of convictions.

Fruits and nuts never fall far from the tree.

Is this the general outcome for your clients and their families?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I don't think you read the whole article, bear. The parents know the child will choose a gender and that gender will very probably be based on its sex, they talk about that.

Actually, I did and I stand by my original viewpoint. I don't think this is giving the child a "choice" but imposing a socio-political viewpoint on him/her. Pretty heavy weight for a baby to carry, especially one that will eventually have to live in the real world.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Actually, I did and I stand by my original viewpoint. I don't think this is giving the child a "choice" but imposing a socio-political viewpoint on him/her. Pretty heavy weight for a baby to carry, especially one that will eventually have to live in the real world.

I was responding to your comment that the baby will force it's sex/gender on the parents "like it or not."

They like it. They expect it.

 

[stephen55]

Gender confusion is part and parcel of the growth process and the final outcome is shaped by the society in which the child grows.

I don't agree. Gender confusion is a rare phenomenon. It's not gender confusion for young boys to dress up or young girls to be tomboys (whatever that is). That's just kids being kids. Up to a certain age, kids couldn't care less about gender.

As kids get older, very, very few are uncertain of their gender. They may be confused about their sexuality, but rarely about their gender. The vast majority are biologically one gender or the other and are quite happy to be so.

Going through adolescence, the vast majority of us have no problem knowing our sexual orientation. Gay adolescents are usually aware of being gay. Some are confused but usually by the late teens, they know who they are.They may have (likely will have) problems with their straight peers (and parents) if forthright about their sexuality, but seldom are genuinely confused as to just what is their orientation. From what (little) I understand about gay adolescents, their confusion arises mostly from not understanding why they are singled out for negative attention.

While straight adolescents are almost never confused about their gender identity, younger gay adolescents can be but in most cases it's due to being gay and not understanding it. (I'm a guy and I have a huge crush on that guy. Maybe I'm supposed to be a girl?) In nearly all cases, the gender identity problem goes away as understanding and acceptance of being gay takes over. (No, I'm not supposed to be female. I'm a male who is gay.)

The "final outcome" is genetically determined for the vast majority of us. We are either XX or XY, gay or straight and even if we don't know it for a number of years, we are born that way. I know of no evidence that society can change that.

This leaves the true cases of gender identity disorder; adults who are very sure that they are in the wrong body. Good statistics are hard to derive but it is a rare phenomenon. Adult gender identity disorder clinics put it at about one in ten thousand for men who feel they should be female and about one in thirty thousand for women who feel they should be men.
http://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&...incidence of gender identity disorder&f=false

The source just linked makes it clear that there are a number of problems with the data. First, it comes from clinics that deal with patients and by no means is it clear what percentage of people with the disorder ever go to a clinic. Thus the real incidence could be several times higher (but it would still be a rare phenomenon).

 

[voluptuary_manque]

And I was about to ETA my comment to include the truth that all parents impose a socio-political viewpoint on their kiddies. This couple is just doing so consciously.

Good luck to them and I hope their society doesn't come down too hard on the kids.

 

[3113]

OMG! This old hat idea is back? It was all the rage among "progressives" back in the '70's until brain research established that there are just as many neurological differences between male and female as there are physical. The baby will eventually force its sex/gender on the parents whether they like it or not. I hope it's a real little hard head. They deserve it.

I was responding to your comment that the baby will force it's sex/gender on the parents "like it or not." They like it. They expect it.

I agree with Stella, VM. You're letting your bias against that "old hat" cloud your perception of what they're trying to do. Stop it.

They say over and over again in the article that when EITHER their other kids or the baby decide it's time to end this ambiguity, it will end. Meaning they're not even forcing their other two children to maintain it if their other two children don't want to. They're leaving everything up to the kids. This isn't the same as parents trying to make boys play with dolls when they don't want to or girls play with trucks when they don't want to (though, interestingly enough, LATER experiments have shown that boys will play with dolls if they look tough and mean but not with trucks if they're painted pink with ruffles, and girls will play with trucks if they look pretty, but not with masculine dolls. So it's not truck and dolls, but how the trucks and dolls look). This is about the parents saying, "Play with what you want to play with, we're not going to let anyone designate what you should play with."

Speaking for myself, I wish my parents had done something like this. I have no trouble at all with my gender, but dolls were forced on me by many relatives and friends and I didn't have much fun playing with them; I looked with envy at the toys my brother got from relatives and friends, the ones he got to play with that I didn't just because he was a boy. So, you'll forgive me, if I understand why these parents are doing this however "old hat" it may seem. Namely, they're trying to make sure society at large doesn't undermine their efforts to let the kid be whatever sort of person the kid wants to be.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This leaves the true cases of gender identity disorder; adults who are very sure that they are in the wrong body. Good statistics are hard to derive but it is a rare phenomenon. Adult gender identity disorder clinics put it at about one in ten thousand for men who feel they should be female and about one in thirty thousand for women who feel they should be men.

Mmm... Rare but still significant.

Most of us never mentioned it during our lifetimes because
a) it's easier to hide as a "tomboy" in this society than it is to be a "sissy,"
b)because "tomboys" are more socially acceptable, parents rarely take their tomboy daughters to see a shrink;
c) female brains seem to be more comfortable with ambiguities, and until a genetic woman starts taking testosterone the brain looks mighty female, and most importantly
d) the fact that there ARE medical and surgical solutions for our quandary is only recently becoming more common knowledge.

I didn't know that there were medical procedures until about 1995, three years after I'd had my second child, and I wasn't willing to take myself away from them as their mother. Now, I'm too old for the hormones to make the difference i would want. I am not one of the gender disturbed women listed, I've never been to one of those clinics.

But that's all beside the point.

These people are not worried about gender disorders in their kids. They are fighting against the societal assumptions of gender roles. They don't want their son to have to give up pink as his favorite color, for instance.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

By removing the gender from their child, aren't they essentially going along with a gender stereotypical view in a roundabout way? Instead of staring down naysayers who squirm at the thought of a boy wearing pink or a girl playing with cars (as they do with their first two children, I'd assume), they're saying that this kid can do whatever it wants because it is genderless, not regardless of its gender.

I'm no fan of gender normed clothing and toys. I can't quite articulate why, but this rubs me the wrong way. I think I'm reading it as saying that a girl can't do what she wants (and a boy can't do what he wants), and hence, the parents feel the need to take a genderless approach.

That said, this is something I thought a lot about when pregnant. I thought quite a bit about what we'd do if we had an intersex child (a child with indeterminate genitals, to put it in what is probably a completely offensive way). This approach seemed far better than doing some surgery or flipping a coin and assigning a gender, and hoping we'd guessed correctly.

But that would have been because it was necessary. This seems to be far more about the parents' issues than the child's, and I fail to see how the child is benefitting from this. In general, I think it's best to let kids be kids, without extra attention from adults or being the middle of a circus.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Now if you want to talk about something that is extremely rare, intersexed genitalia is it. I cannot believe how many people assume that I must have been born that way, for instance. Nope, my pussy is most definitly and conclusicvely a pussy and it works real good, too.

Intersex hardly ever happens. Honest.

 

[Verdad]

It’s impossible not to impose any choices on kids—the only thing different about these folks is that they’re imposing something highly unorthodox and with an unusually high maintenance level. Call me negative, but I expect their kids to one day be as angry as kids who escape families with wacky and fervently enforced religious beliefs.

I also don’t get the idea of combating “girls (or boys) don’t do x” by replying “but you don’t have to be a girl (or boy.)” “Sure they do” seems to me to do the job, and do it without actually reinforcing the stereotypes.

By removing the gender from their child, aren't they essentially going along with a gender stereotypical view in a roundabout way?

Yes, I think so too.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Now if you want to talk about something that is extremely rare, intersexed genitalia is it. I cannot believe how many people assume that I must have been born that way, for instance. Nope, my pussy is most definitly and conclusicvely a pussy and it works real good, too.

Intersex hardly ever happens. Honest.

Oh, I realize it's rare, and I never thought that about you. Nor have I assumed that anyone I've known who has transitioned was born intersexed. I just happen to obsess over very rare things, and always need to have plans of actions for outcomes.

 

[stephen55]

Intersex hardly ever happens. Honest.

Intersex is a whole other ballgame. And it's not so rare. Depending on the definition used, it occurs in about 1% of live births. The causes are legion and figuring out the underlying cause and the sex of the baby is usually not very problematic. However in 0.1 to 0.2% of live births, the sexual ambiguity is marked and becomes a serious issue for parents and the various medical specialists who deal with these babies.

Going by very strict definitions of intersex (where chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic appearance, or in which it is impossible to judge the genital appearance as either male or female), the incidence is about 0.018% (rare).
Sax, Leonard (2002). "How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling.". Journal of Sex Research 39 (3): 174–178.

So many mistakes were made both in assigning gender and in the surgeries to "correct" the problem that The Declaration of Montreal on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Human Rights (July 2006) specifically contained a clause demanding prohibition of unnecessary post birth sex-assignment surgery until the child was old enough to give informed consent.

Catherine Minto, MB ChB and Sarah Creighton, MD MRCOG are two gynecologists working out of University College Hospital London. Along with other specialists in the field, they have made a tremendous difference in changing prevailing medical attitudes about intersex children and in documenting the frequent harm that comes from early surgical intervention.

It is very rare to have a situation where the sexual ambiguity causes a life threatening problem, such as infection from urine or fecal contamination (due to underdeveloped or malformed tissues). In those cases, urgent surgery is necessary but only to the extent that the problem is controlled. Definitive sex assignment surgery in the newborn is almost never a medical emergency.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Is this the general outcome for your clients and their families?

You mean, DO I TRY AND CONTROL EVERYONE? No. I point out the rocks and shoals, and if they wanna go there thats their business not mine.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Intersex is a whole other ballgame. And it's not so rare. Depending on the definition used, it occurs in about 1% of live births. The causes are legion and figuring out the underlying cause and the sex of the baby is usually not very problematic. However in 0.1 to 0.2% of live births, the sexual ambiguity is marked and becomes a serious issue for parents and the various medical specialists who deal with these babies.

Going by very strict definitions of intersex (where chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic appearance, or in which it is impossible to judge the genital appearance as either male or female), the incidence is about 0.018% (rare).
Sax, Leonard (2002). "How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling.". Journal of Sex Research 39 (3): 174–178.

So many mistakes were made both in assigning gender and in the surgeries to "correct" the problem that The Declaration of Montreal on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Human Rights (July 2006) specifically contained a clause demanding prohibition of unnecessary post birth sex-assignment surgery until the child was old enough to give informed consent.

Catherine Minto, MB ChB and Sarah Creighton, MD MRCOG are two gynecologists working out of University College Hospital London. Along with other specialists in the field, they have made a tremendous difference in changing prevailing medical attitudes about intersex children and in documenting the frequent harm that comes from early surgical intervention.

It is very rare to have a situation where the sexual ambiguity causes a life threatening problem, such as infection from urine or fecal contamination (due to underdeveloped or malformed tissues). In those cases, urgent surgery is necessary but only to the extent that the problem is controlled. Definitive sex assignment surgery in the newborn is almost never a medical emergency.

Dear Reader

This clod is referring to androgen insensitivity syndrome. The affected child is XY genetic male but unable to respond to androgenic hormones at the time his body normally assumes the male form. So he looks female and has typical female gender traits but has no ovaries or uterus, just tits and a shallow vaginal vault.

 

[3113]

Why is this issue hitting such a nerve?

It’s impossible not to impose any choices on kids—the only thing different about these folks is that they’re imposing something highly unorthodox and with an unusually high maintenance level. Call me negative, but I expect their kids to one day be as angry as kids who escape families with wacky and fervently enforced religious beliefs.

By removing the gender from their child, aren't they essentially going along with a gender stereotypical view in a roundabout way? Instead of staring down naysayers who squirm at the thought of a boy wearing pink or a girl playing with cars (as they do with their first two children, I'd assume), they're saying that this kid can do whatever it wants because it is genderless, not regardless of its gender.

But is that their fault or simply because there is such an insistence on gender in our society? Things have to start somewhere and when they do start, they may seem like a "circus"--but if they're not started they don't change. Consider the poor girl who integrated that all-white school--someone had to break that barrier and it wasn't going to be easy or nice or leave anyone without scars. Should it have not been done? We may mock parents who, in the 70's, also tried to undo gender boundaries, starting where they started to do that and, we believe, failing. But that generation is now of age and having kids of their own, and what'd'ya know? Some of these parents are open to letting kids who feel they're not the gender of their genitalia be what they are not what the sex organs say. They're more open to gays marrying and raising kids. They's accepting of girls playing with trucks and boys with dolls.

Maybe such experiments weren't the failure they seemed to be. And is this one really such a circus--or that comparable to religious fanatics? The mom doesn't go to extreme lengths to hide her baby away when she changes its diaper. Both parents are ready to end the mystery if it their kids get tired of it. And the baby itself has a vote in this. This isn't quite on level with crazy religious folks who say to their children: "You will be what we say you are, or else!' As for this being about the parents issues--how can the child know what issues are there or how they should be fought? This is what parents DO, what they've always done. They look around, they see the issues adults have with each other and say, "Let's change that now so my child won't have that issue as an adult." Maybe these parents are being ridiculous, or wrong, or whatever, but I'm mystified as to what would these boys will be escaping as some might escape a "wacky religious cult"? The right for males to wear pink?

Why is this issue hitting such a nerve?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Oh come on, now. Been in a mens' store lately? Pink shirts, ties and pocket squares are absolutely mainstream and have been for a generation. I personally find pink blah and savorless but if that's what some guy wants to wear, he wears it. Only a tiny minority of parents (vocal as they might have been) tried to impose androgyny on their children back in the seventies and the growing acceptance of gay marriage has nothing to do with that. I'm just speaking from an experience that saw too many parents trying to live their children's lives for them and through them. I really feel that this couple is doing just that while denying the fact to themselves. They really want their version of a perfect world and they are having the kids live it for them. I wish both them and the kiddies well but I think it's really silly all the same.

 

[stephen55]

Dear Reader

This clod is referring to androgen insensitivity syndrome. The affected child is XY genetic male but unable to respond to androgenic hormones at the time his body normally assumes the male form. So he looks female and has typical female gender traits but has no ovaries or uterus, just tits and a shallow vaginal vault.

Dear Reader,

The moron that calls itself JBJ is as sharp as a bowling ball.

A short list of conditions that can involve intersex is...

5-alpha reductase deficiency
androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS)
aphallia
clitoromegaly
congenital adrenal hyperplasia
gonadal dysgenesis (partial & complete)
hypospadias
micropenis
mosaicism involving sex chromosomes
ovo-testes (formerly called "true hermaphrodism
partial androgen insensitivity syndrome
progestin-induced virilisation
17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency
cryptorchidism
mosaicism
chimerism
less usual chromosomal sex
-Turner syndrome (XO)
-Triple X syndrome (XXX)
-Klinefelter's Syndrome (XXY/XXXY),
-XYY syndrome (XYY)
-de la Chapelle syndrome (XX male)
-Swyer syndrome (XY female)

If you want a more complete list, have a look at a standard textbook of paediatrics, like Nelson's. There you will find chapter after chapter of the myriad of possible causes of intersex and sexual ambiguity.

BTW, women with androgen insensitivity syndrome never require sex assignment surgery. They are born female, are female and stay female.

This is about the fiftieth Jimbo post that has me convinced he has all the professional qualifications of a pole dancer.

Yo, Jimbo!! It's better to remain silent and be thought a fraud than to post and remove all doubt.

Any clinical therapist...any...would know that there is one hell of a lot more to intersex than AIS...moron...

 

[3113]

Reminds me of a tragic story....

So many mistakes were made both in assigning gender and in the surgeries to "correct" the problem that The Declaration of Montreal on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Human Rights (July 2006) specifically contained a clause demanding prohibition of unnecessary post birth sex-assignment surgery until the child was old enough to give informed consent.

I remember a documentary on such intersex individuals where they interviewed a hermaphrodite/neuter (?) (essentially), sex indeterminate, who said that "they" had been able to sexually stimulate themselves, but got pressured (as an adult) into having surgery to make them of a more definitive gender. Of course, once they had the surgery, they were no longer able to stimulate themselves. In giving into that pressure to being a gender, they destroyed their personal sexuality.

I think I have a more flexible view of what these parents are trying to do because of that tragic story, even if it doesn't directly apply to their gendered children.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I remember a documentary on such intersex individuals where they interviewed a hermaphrodite/neuter (?) (essentially), sex indeterminate, who said that "they" had been able to sexually stimulate themselves, but got pressured (as an adult) into having surgery to make them of a more definitive gender. Of course, once they had the surgery, they were no longer able to stimulate themselves. In giving into that pressure to being a gender, they destroyed their personal sexuality.

I think I have a more flexible view of what these parents are trying to do because of that tragic story, even if it doesn't directly apply to their gendered children.

And that isn't even the worst of it. The tragic life of David Reimer should be a warning to everyone of what happens when doctors start thinking that they are gods.