This is atrocious!

[Boxlicker101]

Well, well, well. We get this sort of thing occasionally as well, but maybe not quite so high a profile case.

Over here, the story would go that, regardless of their academic achievements, suddenly the family would not be invited to some function or event (they'd be off several Christmas Card lists, as well). The lads would find not so many doors open to them as they get older, and life would be a little harder for them and the family. By comparison, they'd struggle.


It's slow, but it often works. . .

That's what I refer to as "shunning."

Stella_Omega

This would never have had a profile at all, if the young lady had been properly cowed into silence.

That's true and, having essentially gotten away with it, they would be out raping other girls and women.

 

[RodenAddison]

Bring back stocks and the cane.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Bring back stocks and the cane.

Wouldn't it be nice if that worked, but alas-- it never has worked.

 

[MSTarot]

my wife is in favor of repeat rapist being given a court ordered sex change then made to serve their time in prison.

 

[Stella_Omega]

my wife is in favor of repeat rapist being given a court ordered sex change then made to serve their time in prison.

At first your comment sounded like a typical not-thinking male notion. Just what we need, a group of violent men being sanctioned to rape a woman because she deserves it. Which of course is one thing men say about victims of rape all the time.

But then I started thinking about this; "she" would actually be sent to a woman's prison. Where she would live in close contact with a lot of women who are among the most vulnerable. Could be salutary.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSTarot
my wife is in favor of repeat rapist being given a court ordered sex change then made to serve their time in prison.

At first your comment sounded like a typical not-thinking male notion. Just what we need, a group of violent men being sanctioned to rape a woman because she deserves it. Which of course is one thing men say about victims of rape all the time.

But then I started thinking about this; "she" would actually be sent to a woman's prison. Where she would live in close contact with a lot of women who are among the most vulnerable. Could be salutary.

First, this would be contrary to the Constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. Second, would the M to F be sent to a men's prison, to be raped almost constantly, or would she (but still having a cock) go to a women's prison and have a ball?

 

[Stella_Omega]

First, this would be contrary to the Constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. Second, would the M to F be sent to a men's prison, to be raped almost constantly, or would she (but still having a cock) go to a women's prison and have a ball?

Most people think that a sex change is a simple matter of an operation that magically cuts off a peen and leaves a magic vag in its place.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Most people think that a sex change is a simple matter of an operation that magically cuts off a peen and leaves a magic vag in its place.

I might be wrong, but I believe most M to F sex changes don't involve surgery at all, and the new woman still stands up to piss, if she wants to. F to M changes usually involve a double mastectomy but nothing beyond that. Surgery to replace the primary genitalia is called gender reassignment, and such operations are quite expensive. I believe most insurance companies would be reluctant to pay for them on the grounds they are cosmetic surgery.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I might be wrong, but I believe most M to F sex changes don't involve surgery at all, and the new woman still stands up to piss, if she wants to. F to M changes usually involve a double mastectomy but nothing beyond that. Surgery to replace the primary genitalia is called gender reassignment, and such operations are quite expensive. I believe most insurance companies would be reluctant to pay for them on the grounds they are cosmetic surgery.

Quite so.

However the topic here was whether or not it could possibly be ethical to offer a woman--who has been made trans as a punishment-- up for rape by men in a prison. Somehow... I don't think that's so great, since rape by men was the original problem. Sure, the convicted rapist gets his-- now her-- just desserts, but we don't want to foment a rape culture, in general.

 

[PennLady]

Quite so.

However the topic here was whether or not it could possibly be ethical to offer a woman--who has been made trans as a punishment-- up for rape by men in a prison. Somehow... I don't think that's so great, since rape by men was the original problem. Sure, the convicted rapist gets his-- now her-- just desserts, but we don't want to foment a rape culture, in general.

I understand, at least on an intellectual level, the desire for payback-in-kind, but we can't. As Stella said, to sanction any kind of behavior like this would create a culture we don't want.

 

[estragon]

Regrettably, when existing legal structures do not deal with egregious misconduct in a manner that can receive some acceptance within the culture in which it operates, we get the following:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...1699017.html?ncid=wsc-huffpost-cards-headline

 

[nicecthulhu]

In some countries, the woman or girl would be charged with adultery of fornication for being raped.

Yes, I was aware of that. However, my point was that across the world people are very similar. In countries where what you described above happens, there are men and women there disgusted by those actions. In Canada and the US, we still have people who blame the victim for getting raped. "She shouldn't have been in that bar at that time of night." "She shouldn't have been dressed like that." "She shouldn't have gone back to his place."
Saudi Arabia isn't the only country that mistreatment of women occurs in, but I did understand your point as it does seem to be more prevalent or obvious in some countries.

As for the comments about giving a rapist a sex-change and putting him/her in prison, I don't think prison would be needed. Isn't rape about power over women and/or an expression of hatred or disrespect towards women? So if he becomes a she, then wouldn't the criminal spend the rest of their life looking over their shoulder wondering when his/her time will come? I could easily imagine the rapist imagining most men as rapists (somehow justifying his crime in his crazy mind), so he/she would now feel powerless and vulnerable and be scared of being attacked. Sort of how a rape victim might feel...?
Obviously, I'm not an expert on rape or rape victims, but through my life I have known a small number of women who informed me that they had been raped.

And even with that poor girl releasing the names of the dirtbags, I still feel so sorry for her.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Yes, I was aware of that. However, my point was that across the world people are very similar. In countries where what you described above happens, there are men and women there disgusted by those actions. In Canada and the US, we still have people who blame the victim for getting raped. "She shouldn't have been in that bar at that time of night." "She shouldn't have been dressed like that." "She shouldn't have gone back to his place."
Saudi Arabia isn't the only country that mistreatment of women occurs in, but I did understand your point as it does seem to be more prevalent or obvious in some countries.

As for the comments about giving a rapist a sex-change and putting him/her in prison, I don't think prison would be needed. Isn't rape about power over women and/or an expression of hatred or disrespect towards women? So if he becomes a she, then wouldn't the criminal spend the rest of their life looking over their shoulder wondering when his/her time will come? I could easily imagine the rapist imagining most men as rapists (somehow justifying his crime in his crazy mind), so he/she would now feel powerless and vulnerable and be scared of being attacked. Sort of how a rape victim might feel...?
Obviously, I'm not an expert on rape or rape victims, but through my life I have known a small number of women who informed me that they had been raped.

And even with that poor girl releasing the names of the dirtbags, I still feel so sorry for her.

That suggestion of a sex change for a rapist was not a serious. It would never be legal in the United States.

I believe the treatment is worse in Muslim nations than anywhere else, but that is not an expert opinion. There are other places that come close, such as those where genital mutilation is practised.

Generally speaking, I believe women are treated better in The West than anywhere else. No place is perfect, but the USA and Canada are better than most places.

As for blaming the victim, I try to avoid doing that. If a person is a victim of a crime, I blame the perp. At the same time, sometimes people do reckless or stupid things and become victims. If there is a liquor store owner who decides it would be easier to allow people to come in and choose their purchases and leave the money in a box on the counter, strictly the honor system, I would consider him to be stupid for doing that, but I would still blame the people who take goods for free and/or steal what little money would have been left. If somebody leaves his expensive car parked on an almost deserted street in a rundown part of the city with the door open and the key in the ignition, I would think he was foolish. Even so, I would blame the thief who steals, rather than the rightful owner.

What I am saying is that victims of crime are victims, and the victimizers are the guilty parties, but sometimes people set themselves up to be victimized.

 

[TamLin01]

Well, it's easy to sit here and say "Why didn't they throw the book at these asshole kids?" But if this prosecutor knew the first thing about his job then, as much as no one else may like it, I can tell you that if there was any reasonable chance of getting a conviction on a tougher charge, he probably would have taken it. You accept a plea bargain because it's better than nothing and because you think there's a reasonable chance of ending up with nothing if you don't.

 

[LOAnnie2]

I just point out there are many states that allow youth convicted of major crimes to be detained until they're 25. So if a 15 year old was convicted of murder of 1st degree rape but charged as a child, they'd be out at 25 no matter how long the sentence was.

Also, in cases of rape, it's not like they can't charge these 17 year olds as adults. They committed a big boy crime so they can go to big boy jail.

And frankly, the judge if he's smart would just let this one go, and as for the prosecutor, many of them are elected too and if smart would drop this as quickly and publicly as possible.

Since it was out of the victims hands the second the plea deal was made, the victim shouldn't be part of it unless she was getting major restitution from the creeps as part of it.

I think it odd too since most sex crimes require being registered as a sex offender, which clearly these guys weren't going to be if their names were to be kept secret.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Well, it's easy to sit here and say "Why didn't they throw the book at these asshole kids?" But if this prosecutor knew the first thing about his job then, as much as no one else may like it, I can tell you that if there was any reasonable chance of getting a conviction on a tougher charge, he probably would have taken it. You accept a plea bargain because it's better than nothing and because you think there's a reasonable chance of ending up with nothing if you don't.

A conviction would have been a slam-dunk. They were videotaped committing the crime and showed it on the internet.

I believe the prosecutor made them a sweetheart deal as a result of cronyism. He probably belongs to the same clubs as these bastards' fathers or something like that. In fact, I think there's something in an earlier post about that. ETA: It's on Post 22.

Since she is under 18, perhaps a federal prosecutor will charge them with showing kiddy porn on the internet. One can only hope.