Theories and Hormones

[BlueSugar]

There is a theory that a women who has had an experience that affects her hormones when she is pregnant ends up "washing" her baby with them while the baby is in the womb... mainly with gays, an extra boost of estrogen or testosterone is what "makes" the baby gay or not.

hang on, i know, i should go to the glbt ...

but... someone was telling me this the other day, and it isn't the first time I've heard it and all.

And it made me think, what if it was positively true and the things that happened (like above example) did directly affect the baby - it made me imagine people engaging in bdsm and because of that and the rushes of endorphines/hormones it ... and what affect would it actually have on the child.

...tehe... I guess we all know now what is with us!
((go ahead- try not to picture your parents in all leather and bdsm-ed up!))

Discuss.

 

[dolf]

((ew, stop pictureing your parents in all leather and bdsm-ed up!))

eeeeeeeeeew!
that's just too nasty.
i've heard that in experiments on rats homosexuality could be produced be stressing the pregnant female...where did i read that? grrrr my memory!
i suppose a baby is flooded with these hormones when a mother is in pain during labour...but by then the baby is more developed...
illness and injury are very common so i guess it's not unnatural/unusual for a baby to be exposed to these hormonal changes...
i'm seriously curious now can't wait for someone really smart to come out with the answer.
xx

 

[graceanne]

There is a theory that a women who has had an experience that affects her hormones when she is pregnant ends up "washing" her baby with them while the baby is in the womb... mainly with gays, an extra boost of estrogen or testosterone is what "makes" the baby gay or not.

hang on, i know, i should go to the glbt ...

but... someone was telling me this the other day, and it isn't the first time I've heard it and all.

And it made me think, what if it was positively true and the things that happened (like above example) did directly affect the baby - it made me imagine people engaging in bdsm and because of that and the rushes of endorphines/hormones it ... and what affect would it actually have on the child.

...tehe... I guess we all know now what is with us!
((go ahead- try not to picture your parents in all leather and bdsm-ed up!))

Discuss.

SCREAMS! MY EYES MY EYES! OOOOOOOOH THE HORROR

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: Theories and Hormones

double post

 

[dolf]

BlueSuger, you might never get a serious debate now hon, lol.
no more traumatising us with images of our parents....ewwwww!
xx

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: Theories and Hormones

I hate literotica. I am trying to edit, and it keeps doing quotes.

 

[BlueSugar]

BlueSuger, you might never get a serious debate now hon, lol.
no more traumatising us with images of our parents....ewwwww!
xx

I just used the 'gay' example because its the big one, there are other theories with the "hormone bath" included in the answer to the question. And because there was a twist I placed it on the bdsm board, and bc I was in a silly mood and didn't really get into it - it didn't go on the main bdsm board.

::giggles:: I love the responces so far, maybe thats just the S/m in me answering though


...tehehe...

sorry that Lit has been fritzy for ya graceanne, maybe its because lit hit 10,000,000 tonight!

 

[bunny bondage]

(puts on professor coat and stands behind the podium)

All quotes are taken from Baumeister and Tice's "The social dimension of sex"

"Masochism is one of psychology's oldest puzzles. At first blush, masochism runs contrary to several of psychology's most basic assumptions and principles. It is well established, for example, that human beings, like almost all other creatures, seek pleasure and avoid pain. Why then, would someone want to be spanked or whipped?"

"Male masochists seemed more willing to dispense with pain altogether, and so being spanked tended to be more common among female than male masochists. When men did want pain, however, they tended to desire stronger doses of it, so male masochism might involve paddling or whipping instead of the relatively mild hand-spanking that female masochists favored. Female masochists also preferred to elaborate some context or signifigance for the spanking, such as if they had misbehaved (usually just as part of the sex game) and were being punished, whereas many male masochists would simple describe being spanked or whipped for no apparent reason."

"Masochism is very culturally relative. It was first noted in Europe around 1500 and until quite recently was mainly known only in modern Western countries (for a review, see Baumeister, 1988b, 1989) For example, the sex historian Reay Tannahill (1980) noted that the sex manuals of ancient China cover almost exactly the same sexual practices as one would find in a modern American book on sex - except masochism, which she said was conspicuous by its absence from the Chinese books. Likewise, ancient Greek literature was full of sex scenes, containing a broad variety of practices - but again no sign of masochism (Licht, 1934) The Medieval Christian authorities wrote extensively about sex, debating the sinfulness of many practices and discussing their scriptural nad theological implications. They too cover nearly all the sexual practives known to modern man, except masochism. (Bullough & Brundage, 1982) These patters suggest that masochism was largely unknown in most of human history and most societies and is somehow a special product of modern western culture."

so basically, masochism is a cultural and conditioning thing, not biological.

 

[BlueSugar]

(puts on professor coat and stands behind the podium)


so basically, masochism is a cultural and conditioning thing, not biological.

A) Poo, you ruined my fun! I know this, we all mostly know this, I was just having a bit of fun! Various acts of bdsm while pregnant affecting the child. Will they dye their hair blone and listen to bubblegum music if mommy was getting paddled? Will they poke "flesh mutulating silver appendages" through their skin if mommy had a liking to a quirt?

B) I bet I still got ya on the "do not picture your parents thing" !!

C) Is there anything under said professor coat? hm??

 

[bunny bondage]

A) sorry to ruin your fun!! but my psychosexual analysis teacher has trained me too well!

B) ok, that's just GROSS

C) just my professor panties!

 

[snowy ciara]

There is a theory that a women who has had an experience that affects her hormones when she is pregnant ends up "washing" her baby with them while the baby is in the womb... mainly with gays, an extra boost of estrogen or testosterone is what "makes" the baby gay or not.

hang on, i know, i should go to the glbt ...

but... someone was telling me this the other day, and it isn't the first time I've heard it and all.

And it made me think, what if it was positively true and the things that happened (like above example) did directly affect the baby - it made me imagine people engaging in bdsm and because of that and the rushes of endorphines/hormones it ... and what affect would it actually have on the child.

...tehe... I guess we all know now what is with us!
((go ahead- try not to picture your parents in all leather and bdsm-ed up!))

Discuss.

Truly scary thing here.. Um, Sugar, I found out some time ago that my parents do, do, er what it is we do. I've sort of recovered, I think.. Yes, my dad's a PYL and my mum is a pyl, and one of my brothers also indulges in this sort of thing. It was one heck of a convo! I decided to tell my mum that I was bi, and then I sort of hinted that I might be kinky. I'm the one who ended up in information overload; as I also found out that one of my brothers is gay.

 

[Bikewer]

Sexologists generally agree that there are three factors that may effect our sexual development.
Firstly genetics, which is all by itself quite complex. All human embryos start out female, and those with the "Y' chromosome set "masculinize" during development. It used to be thought that the Y chromosme was rather simple, basically an on-off switch.
Recently it's been found to be much more involved than that, with lots of room for "transcription errors".

Then there is the mentioned hormone levels. But it's more complex than that, and not driven by experience. It has to do with hormone levels in the mothers bloodstream at certain critical points of the fetus' development. Things that the mother might experience would have very little to do with things.

Finally, there's experience. After birth, up through about age three, humans form a "lovemap"; an idealized mental construct of a desirable mating partner. This is based on contacts with parents, siblings, caregivers, etc. This "lovemap" can be influenced by many things, and the process is not fully understood.

 

[snowy ciara]

<minor snippage>
Finally, there's experience. After birth, up through about age three, humans form a "lovemap"; an idealized mental construct of a desirable mating partner. This is based on contacts with parents, siblings, caregivers, etc. This "lovemap" can be influenced by many things, and the process is not fully understood.

There's where I'm thinking my thing comes in. Though they kept the whole D/s thing in the background (yes, she called him Sir, I thought it was just a nickname, like when she called me demon child) but I wonder now if I was picking up the power exchange. Never can tell though.

 

[Bikewer]

It's very difficult to study. One of the prime researchers in the field, John Money, used to complain constantly about how hard it was to get funding. Any mention of "sex" would cause grant applications to be sent to the bottom of the pile!

Also, it's hard to put human beings in controlled situations like lab rats, and these things apparently form before we become "thinking" beings at any rate.

I know I was fascinated by bondage/domination at a very young age, and to this day could not name an influence.

 

[bunny bondage]

dr.kelly here at my universuty was kind enough to answer some questions for me. here they are:

>so...are masochists just endorphin junkies?
There is a lot we don't know about masochism, but the motivation seems to be
more than stimulating endorphins. It can include being humiliated and
psychological suffering without physical pain. It seems to fulfill more a
psychological desire rather than stimulating endorphins.

>is it possible to build up a tolerance?

It may be possible to require greater intensity to get the same effect. It
might be building a physical tolerance or more of a psychological tolerance
and wanting to push the boundary.

>is it an addiction to be supressed or is it just a personality trait?

The fact that it is in the DSM-IV means that it is considered a disorder, but
the DSM specifies that it must cause significant distress or impairment. If
someone is endangering him or herself or being injured, I think that it would
qualify as impairment.

>do most cases have a history of abuse?

I haven't seen any research on that one way or the other. The current
thinking is that something happened early in life that formed an association
between pain or humiliation and sexual feelings. It would not necessarily
have to be as extreme as abuse.

>is it the same part of the mind, the same
>"flaw" as sadism? or is sadism something else entirely? could the two be
>caused by the same circumstances or influences?

Sadism and masochism are alike in that both are due to early experiences
associated with sexual feelings. Theoretically 2 people could have similar
experiences in childhood, but interpret them differently. One person might
identify more with the person inflicting the pain and the other person
identify with the person receiving the pain. It depends on the experience and
the way it is interpreted. But usually you would expect people to identify
with whatever role they were in when the association was formed.

>are relationships of a
>power-exchange nature unhealthy?

Most psychologists believe that it is healthy to have equal power in the
relationship if possible, but an imbalance of power is not always a problem
for the couple. Most relationships have some imbalances of power in different
areas, but they balance out over all. If the power differential causes
distress, leads to abuse, or causes impairment, then it would be considered
unhealthy.


>..thanks for your time

I hope that answers your questions. There is not too much research in this
area from which to draw clear conclusions.

 

[graceanne]

There's where I'm thinking my thing comes in. Though they kept the whole D/s thing in the background (yes, she called him Sir, I thought it was just a nickname, like when she called me demon child) but I wonder now if I was picking up the power exchange. Never can tell though.

See, in my case my parents hated eachother, and my mom and step dad aren't happy unless they have something to complain about. My mom likes to pretend that Tom's the dominant partner, but she is. On the other hand, I don't think Tom wants to be the dominant. If he was, then he wouldn't be able to bitch about my mom. *shrugs* On the other hand their was a huge difference in power in my family.

On the other hand, my husband if very like my mother. He's not abusive like her, but nonetheless. I read somewhere, a long time ago, that people will search for mates like a parent. K's like my mom, and my sister married a man like my dad (except quieter). *shrugs*

 

[FungiUg]

The Medieval Christian authorities wrote extensively about sex, debating the sinfulness of many practices and discussing their scriptural nad theological implications. They too cover nearly all the sexual practives known to modern man, except masochism.

I hate to disagree with such a cute professor, but...

Where did the tradition of "self flagellation" come from? It has been practiced for thousands of years. Okay, so I'm mixing religion and sex, but... so was she! (Points at Bunny)

I think masochism has been with us for quite some time. It may only be recently that we have noticed the link between masochism and sex. But I suspect that for millenia, many women have enjoyed being spanked. Admittedly, they're rather old and have very red butts by now...

 

[bunny bondage]

I hate to disagree with such a cute professor, but...

Where did the tradition of "self flagellation" come from? It has been practiced for thousands of years. Okay, so I'm mixing religion and sex, but... so was she! (Points at Bunny)

I think masochism has been with us for quite some time. It may only be recently that we have noticed the link between masochism and sex. But I suspect that for millenia, many women have enjoyed being spanked. Admittedly, they're rather old and have very red butts by now...

this is the "modern western civilization" i was talking about. admittedly, it's not that "modern" anymore, but yes, this is what i meant. this wasn't millenia ago, just a few scant centuries! and only with the western religions. it sprung up recently and in our cultures, but was not at all mentioned in other regions or time periods. the idea of "self flagellation" popped up with these same midevil christian fellas i was talking about, who never wrote anything BEFORE this about it, and didn't even relate their masochistic acts with sex at all. only here, only recently.

 

[m wisdom]

If I remember right "Self flagellation" is a Christian thing where the point is to hurt yourself so others can be forgiven for their sins. (It's supposed to represent the pain Jesus went through.)

There are simular things in the hindu religon but I don't remember what they are supposed to represent. Anybody?

 

[FungiUg]

Self flaggelation is Judaic, Christian, Muslem, Buddhist, Hindu... I don't remember it being a feature of Taoism (Chinese), but I could easily be wrong.

The Hindu's REALLY get into it, including self piercing, sleeping on beds of nails, that sort of thing. Christians and Judaists tend to go more for the "hair shirt" approach.

 

[m wisdom]

Self flaggelation is Judaic, Christian, Muslem, Buddhist, Hindu... I don't remember it being a feature of Taoism (Chinese), but I could easily be wrong.

The Hindu's REALLY get into it, including self piercing, sleeping on beds of nails, that sort of thing. Christians and Judaists tend to go more for the "hair shirt" approach.

Do you know what the different underlying reasons for the self flaggelation is? The only one I know is Christianity. Would be nice to compare the different religons.

 

[bunny bondage]

i didn't think it was anywhere else, but i could easily be wrong! i'll send this question to a few docs around here and see what they have to say.

 

[Hajar]

Taken from sexuality.org, bdsm section.
sorry it's so long,I did try to remove some that wouldn't aid the discussion., but it wasn't much



By Dorothy C. Hayden, CSW

In the thousands of years before that, however, a masochistic-spiritual connection prevailed throughout most of civilization. Whereas psychology considered masochism as a disease, pre-nineteenth century religion regarded it as a cure. The ancients were in touch with the spiritual, physical and emotional value of masochism. For them, it was an essential part of reality; a combination of the soul in a tortured state, rapturous delight, exquisite pain and unbearable passion that brought them closer to experiencing union with something greater than their individual egos.

In the Western religious tradition, the desire to be beaten and whipped reflected the desire for "penance" which often involved humiliation, shame, pain, worship and submission. In monasteries and churches, bowed heads, bent knees, folded hands, covered heads and full-body prostration reflected the basic masochistic posture. The writers of the New Testament made frequent mention of flagellation and physical pain. The entire "passion play" of Christ, a narrative that has been embedded in our collective psyches for thousands of years, involves bondage, flagellation and crucifixion as part of being subjected to the will of a higher power and the subsequent resurrection to a transcendent consciousness. The Psalmists were in the practice of lashing themselves every day. It was part of the Jewish tradition, 500 years after Christ; to lash one another with scourges after they had finished their prayers and confessed their sins.

Flagellation in monasteries and convents were the order of the day. Saints such as St. William, St. Rudolph and St. Dominic would routinely order their disciples to lash them on bare backs. From flagellating themselves, priests began to flagellate their penitents as part of their penance. It came to be regarded as a necessary act of submission to God. Some holy men maintained that whipping had the power to rescue souls from hell. They believed that humiliation and physical pain provided a way in which one could become fully human.

All of the early Christian orders used flagellation as part of their spiritual discipline. St. Theresa, founder of the Carmelites, used severe flagellation as part of her daily practice. Through the birch and the scourge, she entered into states of ecstatic mysticism. The Carmelite nun, Caterina of Cardona, continuously wore iron chains which cut into her flash. She flogged herself with chains and hooks as often as possible and would sometimes flagellate herself for two or three hours at a time. It was said that through these practices, she was subject to mystical ecstasies and visions of heavenly grace. Similar stories abound among the Franciscans, the Dominicans and the Jesuits. Apparently a heavy dose of masochism was an essential part of Christian monastic life.

In the early eleventh century, monastic hermits in Italy took up the practice of self-flagellation and fled the monasteries to take to the public streets and churches. Called the sect of the Flagellants, and organized by St. Anthony, these monks would work themselves up to frenzied desire and could reach consummation only in torn flesh and self-degradation. The Flagellants marched from one town to the next in procession, picking up new penitents as they passed through. Sometimes numbering in the tens of thousands, they would march to a church, form a circle in front of it, and perform a highly ritualized penitential ceremony. Stripped to the waist, the penitents would chant hymns and prostrate themselves in contrition. The ritual culminated in severe flagellation of all the participants, sometimes lasting for hours. In the end, these gaunt figures, faces pressed to the earth in shame and rapture, their backs beaten to raw meat, their whips dyed blood red, were lifted into ecstasy. It seemed to work a spiritual transformation in those who participated.

Western culture does not have an exclusive hold on the use of subjugation and pain as part of spiritual discipline. Zen Buddhist monasteries are known for the master's use of the rod on disciples and for the Zen "slap" which is said to awaken a person to a higher level of consciousness. Zen students often sit crossed-legged on a cushion for 14 hours a day, seven days a week, submitting themselves to the physical agony of staying completely still in the face of unrelenting pain for long periods of time. Hindu disciples subjugate their wills to the will of the Guru; Tibetan Buddhists unquestionably follow the will of their Lama. An early Tibetan saint, Milarapa, was forced by his prospective teacher to undergo hard, painful and arduous physical labor without questioning the master's will before being accepted as a student.

If, in fact, the history of civilization is filled with stories of a masochistic/spiritual connection, how is it that the masochistic attitude is connected to spiritual transformation? What exactly has been the appeal of masochistic submission to spiritual personages throughout the ages?

One possible answer is that modern society has been heavily influenced by the Horatio Alger "rugged individualism" mentality. The goals of contemporary psychotherapy have been aimed at building strong, coping, rational, problem-solving egos. Take responsibility, Take control. Assert yourself. But at what cost? Building a strong ego is only one side of the coin. To experience the fullness of human experience, we need passivity and receptivity as well as assertion. We need a sense of mystical wonder as well as rational problem solving. We need to be in touch with what the psychoanalyst Carl Jung called "the shadow" -- the weak, limited, degraded, sinful side of ourselves as well as the strong, loving, compassionate, competent side. We need to move out from under the onus of our egocentric way of viewing life; to abdicate control as well as to take it. Masochistic submission, in centering on lack, inadequacy and weakness, puts us in touch with the entirety of our humanity. Full humanity requires surrender to the down side of life as well as the upside. Religious penitents knew of the soul's need for suffering. They knew that it keeps us from having hubris, or the pride that keeps us in the limited perspective of having too much faith in our competence and abilities. The Christian and Eastern mystics knew that. "Humiliation is the way to humility and without humility, nothing is pleasing to God," says St. Francis of Assissi.

A scene strips the ego of its defenses, ambitions, self-consciousness and successes. The ego become subservient to the master, the dominant, the soul, or God. Whether we call it submission to the dominant or to the will of God, it nevertheless remains submission - one of the hallmarks of the masochistic posture. The masochistic components -- the longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a man, a woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation.

Another similarity between masochism and mystical ecstasy is that both are motivated by the desire for oblivion and liberation; for getting rid of the burden of self with all its conflicts, burdens and limitations. In former, less secular times, this might be called a striving for mystical ecstasy in which the individual is so taken out of himself that his individual identity is extinguished in sublime union with something higher.

In submission, one is taken out of one's personal limitations and transcends social sanctions while at the same time being reduced, weakened and humiliated. With noses pressed against the ever-present reality of human suffering, it is both an agonizing defeat and a magnificent spiritual journey.

Taken from sexuality.org, bdsm section.

 

[BlueSugar]

really really interesting reads people, I thought this was going to be a fluff thread, but I was wrong... best hijack yet.

 

[FungiUg]

really really interesting reads people, I thought this was going to be a fluff thread, but I was wrong... best hijack yet.

Hey... even the FLUFF around here is smart!