Theology Proper: God's Revelation of Himself

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

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Theology Proper may be considered as a major branch of theological study which concerns itself with the Existence, knowability, and nature of the triune Godhead as He has revealed Himeself to man (primarily in Scripture).
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---This is a major field of study and is basic to an accurate grasp of theology. Four sources from which this knowlwedge comes may be listed and described as follows. the first three are minor sources; the fourth is the major source.

1. Reason: By the term "reason," the greatest ability in man to perceive the existence and nature of God (apart from Scripture) is meant. By "reason" man may see a little of the greatness and precision of the material creation around him, and conclude that there must be a proper reason for it all . . . which is God.

2. Intuition: "Intuition" may be viewed as a conviction which naurally comes from human intellect. Intuitive knowledge of the fact of God is the universality of this conviction. The natural man by nature knows that God exists and that He is needed.

3. Tradition: Man is by tradition a religious being. History and Ancient History demonstrate that man is God-conscious. By tradition (both ancient tradition and present tradition) man is made more conscious of the fact and the need for God esepecially conscious of the need for God's help.

4. Revelation: By far the greatest source of knowledge about God is in the written Revelation, the Word of God. To this source all others must yield.

"The attempts to formulate a philosphy which purports to analyze God and all His works is fraught with insuperable problems . . . A theory never creates a fact; it reaches its fruition when it explains a fact which already exists." - L.S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol 3, p 132.

---God has revealed Himself through:

- His name
- His attributes
- His actions

---God's first revelation is about Himself. Genesis 1:1*1*

- owner of all things
- anchor of all reality
- focus point for all creation
- solution fo all difficulties
- controller of all relationships

~~~~~

*1* Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

I. THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

A. Definition of "God"

---It is beyond finite ability to fully understand infinite God and therefore impossible to provide an exhaustive definition. However, even a limited definition is of some help in the study of Systematic Theology. God has been defined as:

"God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, belssedness and perfection; all-sufficent, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, everywhere present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth." - Westminster Larger Catechism as quoted by L.S. Chafer in Systematic Theology, vol 7, 173.

"God is one essence, absolute, unchangeable, and infinite in his knowledge and wisdom, His goodness and love, His grace and mercy, His righteousness and holiness." - Dr. L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 56.

"God is a Spirit, holy in nature and attributes/perfections, absolute in reality, infintie in efficiency, perfect in personality and thereby the ulitmate ground, adequate cause and sufficent reason for all finite existence." - H. Orton Wiley, Christian Theology, Vol. 1, p 218.

"God is the infinite and perfect Spirit in whom all things have their source, support and end." Dr A.H. Strong, Systematic Theology, p. 52

"'God is a Spirit,' (John 4:24), although spoken for a practical purpose, is also a scientific definition. The original (<font face="symbol">pneuma o yeov</font>) by its emphatic collocation of <font face="symbol">pneuma</font>, and omission of the article, implies that God is spirit in the highest sense. He is not 'a' spirit but spirit itself, absolutely. the employment of the article in the English version is objectionable because it places the deity in a class with other spiritual beings. But this is not the thought of Christ, who asserts that 'no one knoweth the Father but the Son' (Matt 11:27); thus claiming for himself a knowledge of the deity as the absolute and unconditioned spirit, who is not cognizable by the finite mind in the manner and degree that finite spirit is." Dr. W.G.T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, p. 151-152.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

I. THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

B. Arguments for the Existence of God

1. The ontological argument:

---Ontology: "the branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature or being or reality." - Webster

---The ontological argument for the existence of God was probably best expressed by an Augustian monk from the distant past, Anselm (1033-1109). anselm was an Itatlian born archbishop of Canterbury. His argument is summerized by Millard Erickson as follows :

"God is the greatest of all conceivable beings. Now a being which does not exist cannot be the greatest of all conceivable beings (for the nonexistent being of our conceptions would be greater if it had the attribute of existence). Therefore, by definition, God must exist." Christian Theology, pp. 159-160.

"The ontological argument . . . consists in a course of reasoning from God as the absolute first cause of all things to the things He has created--specifically, the inherent idea that God exists." - L.S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol 1, p 158

---Concerning Anselm's statements regarding this argument for the existence of god, Dr. A.H. Strong states the view as follows:

"We have the idea of an absolutely perfect Being. But existence is an attribute of perfection. An absolutely perfect Being must therefore exist." Systematic Theology, P. 86.

---This argument has been debated and widely discussed for centuries. It has some basic weaknesses. The basic framework of this argument as expressed by anselm fails to distinguish between ideal existence and actual existence. Merely human ideas and ideals do not constitute actual reality. James H. Fairchild comments,

"The argument does not appear satisfactory. We have no idea of a being whose non-existence is impossible to our thought." Elements of Theology, p 10

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In its final form, Anselm's theory was stated thus.
1. It is logically necessary to affirm a necessary Existent what is logically necessary to the concept of it.
2. Real existence is logically necessary to the concept of a necessary Existent.
3. Hence, it is logically necessary to affirm that a necessary Existent exists.
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---Much debate and writing has been given to this argument for the existence of God throughout Church History. A student of theology should be familar with this line of teaching, but should not depnd on it.

---It is incorrect to say that existence is a perfection of essence. One must also recognize the difference between what is conceptually possible and what is actually possible.

---Further study may be helped by a careful reading of Norman Geisler's book, Philosophy of Religion, pages 133-162.

2. The cosmological argument:

---The word cosmos comes from a Greek word meaning "order." Where there is evidence of order, there must be something which produces order. If there is no Cosmic Mind there must be no evidence of a Cosmic Mind. This arguemtn, simply put, suggests that if anything exists, it must have the power of being. For example, a molecule is either:
- an illusion (we cannot think of nothing)
- self created
- self-existent
- created by something shich is self-existent

---The cosmological argument for the existence of God is clearly stated by Dr A.H. Strong as follows:

"Everything begun, whether substance or phenomenon, owes its existence to some producing cause. The universe, at least so far as its present form is concerned, is a thing begun, and owes its existence to a cause which is ?at least? equal to its production. This cause must be indefinitely great." Systematic Theology, p. 73.

---Keep in mind that this arguement, as stated by Dr. Strong, declares that "everything begun" must have a cause. He does not say that whatever exists must have a cause. Such a view would require God to have "causer."

---The cosmological argument is based on three interconnected truths:
a. all effects have a cause
b. all effects are dependent upon its cause for its existence
c. nature cannot produce itself.

---This argument views "cause" as a real entity with adequate power to accomplish a given effect. It is a valid line of reasoning, but is not without some question. It is difficult to demonstrate that the "cause" of the universe is "uncaused," or that the "cause" of all effects is infinite. The value of this approach to the existence of God may be seen in that it does show the existence of some cause of the universe which is indefinitely great.

---Dr. M Erikson presents a recent view of this argumetn by expressing it as follows:

"In the realm of our experience, everything that we know is caused by something else. There cannot , however, be an inifinite regres of causes, for if it were the case, the whole series of causes would never have begun. there must, therefore, be some "uncaused cause )unmoved mover) or necessary being. and this we (or all men) call God. Anyone looking honestly at the evidence must reach this conclusion." - p. 158.

3. The teleological Argument

---The teleological argument for the existence of God builds upon the cosmological argument principle. This line of thought declares that evidence of God's existence is seen in that there is order and adaptation in the universe. the design, function and ultimate goals of all things declares the existence of God.

---Dr. L. Berkhof defines this arguement,

"The wrold everywhere reveals intelligence, order, harmony, and purpose, and thus implies the existence of an intelligent and purposeful being, adequate to production of such a world." - Systematic Theology, p. 26 (see Psalm 94:9, 10; 19:1-6*1,2*).

*1* Psalm 94:9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see?
10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know?

*2* Psalm 19:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

---This is one of the best arguments for God's existence. The whole universe is evidence, and the more detailed anyone's study of the material creation become, the greater the evidence that there is a Designer.

4. The anthropological Argument (also known as the philosophical or moral argument)

This argument for God's existence is clearly expressed by Millard Erickson as follows:

"We all possess a moral impulse or a catergorical imperative. Following this impulse by behaving morally is not very well rewarded within this life; however, being good does not always pay! Why should one be moral then? Would it not be wiser to act selfishly at times? There must be some basis for ethics and morality, some sort of reward, which in turn involves several factors--immorality and an undying soul, a coming time of judgement, and a God who establishes and supports values, ans who rewards good and punishes evil. Thus, the moral order (as contrasted with the natural order) requires the existence of God." Christian Theology, p. 159.

Three seperate divisions observed in this line of thought are:

a. the intellectual and moral natures in man must have an intellectual and moral Creator.
b. the moral nature of man shows an existence of a holy Lawgiver and Judge.
c. the emotional and voluntary features of man reveal a Creator with like features.
(See A.H. Strong's Systematic Theology, p. 45-46 for further study.)

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

I. THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

B. Arguments for the Existence of God

5. The ethnological Argument (also referred to as the historicla or religious argument)

This argument has bee clearly stated by Berkhof as follows:

"Among all the peoples and tribes of the earth there is a sense of the divine, which reveals itself in an external cultus. Since the phenomenon is universal, it must belong to the very nature of man. and if the nature of man naturally leads to religious worship, this can only find its explaination in a higher Being who has constituted man a religious being." Systematic Theology, p 27.

---This line of thought is also not without some difficulty. An unbeliever may respond to this by suggesting another cause, other than God, may account for this phenomenon. However, the existence of God as revealed through Scriptures best fit the facts.

6. The Christological Argument

---This argument is based on the belief that the postulate which best explains the related facts is proably true. The belief in the existence of God best explains the facts of man's mental, moral, and religious nature, as well as the facts of the material universe. Hence, God exists. - Dr. Clarence Mason.

---All the above-noted reasonings have a place in theological thought and study. They should be know and taught freely. However, they are not necessary to the true believer in Jesus Christ; such individuals need not debate the existence of One whom they sepnd every moment of every day. The Bible declares, "the fool ahs said in his heart, 'There is no God'. " (Psalm 14:1).

From the basic standpoint of the existence of God, study may be concerning the nature of God. The Study of God may be divided into two sections: 1) theism and 2) trinitarianism.

1. Theism: ". . . a belief in God, and incorporates a system of beliefs which constitute a philosophy, restricted, indeed somewhat to those findings and conclusions which human reason suggests." - L.S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol 1, p.137

2. Trinitarianism: ". . . the specific Christian thought of God is that of a Spirit in the unity of whose Being is revealed a distinction of Persons whom we call Father, Son , and Holy Spirit; the God from Whom, through Whom, and by Whom all things come--the Father as the primal Source, the Son as the redemptive Mediator, and the Holy Spirit as the Personal Applier of life and grace." - W.H. Griffith Thomas, The Principles of Theology, p. 21.

. . . God the Father is the fountian of the Deity, the whole Divine nature is communicated from the Father to the Son, and from both to the Sprit, yet so as that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are not Spereate from the Divinity, but do still exist in it, and are most intimately united to it. - see Richard Watson, Theological Institutes, Vol 1, p 451.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

II. THE PERFECTIONS (ATTRIBUTES) OF GOD

---Eternity will be spent by the redeemed learning the greatness of God. It is impossible for man to exhaust the knowledge of God, but God does intend for His people to grasp something of Himself as found in the Scriptures. we may observe . . .

A. The Personhood of God

---Even though God is three Persons who are distinct, simultaneous, anmd fully god, it is vital to realize that God is a Person, not an impersonal "Force." that GOd is a Person is seen in the fact that He has personal features, as may be observed in man. These features include:

1. Self-awareness: Ex 3:13,14; Lv 11:44,45; Is 44:6; 45:22; 46:9

Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Leviticus 11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,


2. Self-determination: Is 46:9; Rm 11:33, 34; Ep 1:11

Romans 11:33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

3. Moral awareness of right and wrong: Pr 15:3; Rm 2:5, 6; 2 Tm 2:13

Proverbs 15:3 ¶ The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

4. Endurance: Ps 102:12

Psalm 102:12 ¶ But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

B. The Nature of Deity Possessed by God

"The divine nature is that substance or essence, with its qualities and powers, that makes and identifies this Person to be God. The possession of the divine nature distinguishes God from other persons." - Personal Christian Theology, p. 30.

---In his essence, God is Spirit (Jn 4:24). In this respect, God is unique. Though there are other spirit beings, and human spirits in mankind, God is unique in that He is uncreated and Eternal. The three Persons of the Godhead equally share this essence (Jn 10:30). God is not limited to bodily parts and other human limitations.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

C. The Study of God's "Perfections" or "Attributes"

---Most studies of Theology refer to "the attributes of God." However, it seems more exact to refer to this area of Theology as the "perfections" of God.

---The reason for this is clearly stated by Dr. Shedd:

"The attributes are not parts of the essence, of which this latter is composed. The whole essence is in each attribute, and the attribue in the essence. We must not conceive of the essence as existing by itself, and prior to the attributes, and of the attributes as an addition to it. God is not essence and attributes, but in attributes. The attributes are essential qualities of God." - Dogmatic theology, Vol. 1, p. 334.

D. Perfections or "Attributes" Defined

1. "God's attirbutes are those permanent, or essential, qualities of His Nature, which He has made known to us in His WOrd." - Dr. R.L. Dabney, Systematic Theology, p. 147.

2. "God's attributes are those essential qualities that belong to His nature and that outwardly reveal this substance. Perhaps the word 'perfections' would be a better term, since the words 'attributes' conveys the idea of assigning something to one . . . " - Practical Christian Theology, p. 30.

3. "An attribute is a property which is intrinsic to its subject. It is that by which it is distinguished." - L.S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 1, p. 190.

4. "When we speak of the attributes of God we are referring to those qualities of God which constitue what He is . . . The attributes are qualites of the entire Godhead . . . The attributes are permanent qualities . . . The attributes are inseperable from the being or essence of God." - Christian Theology, Erickson, p. 265.

E. The Classification of God's Perfections or Attributes

---the various perfections or attributes of God are not easily divided into classification. Various writers on theology divide them in several different groupings. The major classifications are:

1. Natural and moral
2. Immanent or intrasitive, and eminent or transitive
3. Positive and negative
4. Absolute and relative
5. Active and passive
6. Incommunciable and communicable
7. Attributes which constitue and characterize His essential Being - Chafer

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

The next Subsection to be posted once I have it typed is

E. The classification of God's perfections or Attributes.
1. Incommunicable perfectionsof God
a. God is selfexistent
b. God is immutable
c. God is infinite
d. the unity of God
2. communicable perfections of God
a. the Spritiuality of God
b. the intellectual perfections of God
c. the moral perfections of God
d. God's attiributes of soverignty

 

[Black_Bird]

Are you saying that God can't choose not to not be? That isn't omnipotence! Are you saying that God can't be more then three personages? Less? Are you saying God can't choose to be without personality? Are you saying that God wrote down all these rules and now he can't change them?

Once you try to define what God is or isn't, you create an idol. You worship that idol and God will punish you for it. Isn't that what the Bible says? Idols aren't just made of stone, friend. Idols are statues made of the very mass of your brain matter.

 

[Thumper]

Ummm Todd

Isn't this like saying "God exists because God said so" ?

Reason? Because primitive man couldn't understand a few simple things he devised "God" to explain it.

Intuition? Intuition isn't derivitive of intellect. A "gut feeling" isn't intellectually dependent.

Tradition? Superstition.

Revelation? Refer to my first statement. The bible doesn't prove the existence of God.

God exists because he says he does in the bible? That argument isn't supported by any independent facts.

God wrote the bible because God said he wrote it. It says so in the bible.

When I see him set pen to paper then I will believe every word, until then it is just a book written by a man(men/women) and as such susceptible to all the flaws and imperfections and distortions that that implies.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Black Bird,

As in one of my earlier posts:

"It is beyond finite ability to fully understand infinite God and therefore impossible to provide an exhaustive definition"

I don't intend to say this is all or only what God is, it is merely what God has revealed Himself to me through His revelation.


Thumper,

Did you miss the Bibliology thread?

 

[SINthysist]

In the beginning...

Man was alone and without knowlege. He was scared shitless of everything, so everything that scared the living daylights out of him became god.

But then man grew wiser, more sophisticated, less afraid. Polytheism became monotheism.

And man grew even more clever and became very agnostic. Nitsche (I know I am murdering the spelling) even declared him dead (somewhat as others would contend before god declared him dead).

And yet man grew even more clever and realized he was god, and began to create new life forms.

I GROK!

 

[SINthysist]

PS

Today even more clergy was netted in operation Candyman.

Now if there was a god who gave a shit, lightning would have struck them dead way before the FBI got thier shot at the pervs...

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: PS

Today even more clergy was netted in operation Candyman.

Now if there was a god who gave a shit, lightning would have struck them dead way before the FBI got thier shot at the pervs...

I am not Catholic, and I have stated my viesws on Catholicism before.

The more and more get caught in these stings the more and more my statemnets become correct and viable about Catholicism

 

[SINthysist]

These were not catholics. Over in Pleasanton this week, they arrested the Nazarene youth minister for molesting a ten year-old girl.

The local biology teacher was busted for inviting girls over to tan and then filming them. It's everywhere.

And it goes back to my original argument. When you condone a story of a teacher and a high school student, which this board has repeatedly done [and when you live in a society where the Texas thing happens Your.lavy's/and my threads], then you send a message to the predators.

Hey, it's okay...

They want it. They really do...

 

[Black_Bird]

Double Post.

 

[Black_Bird]

"It is beyond finite ability to fully understand infinite God and therefore impossible to provide an exhaustive definition"

I don't intend to say this is all or only what God is, it is merely what God has revealed Himself to me through His revelation.

So... you admit that God is infinite and beyond your capability to understand and then you go about trying to understand God based on how he had revealed himself to you in the Bible and claim that this is more *right* then other definitions of God; not merely just more right for you, but more right period. Yet ANY definition of God at all *limits* God, making him a finite creature. This is an idol.

You aren't being a very good monotheist.

Here's a question; Why do we need a definition at all?

 

[SINthysist]

God wants us to wear the same sneakers, cut off our balls, and wait for passage in Kehoutek. Whoops. That one's been done already.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

So... you admit that God is infinite and beyond your capability to understand and then you go about trying to understand God based on how he had revealed himself to you in the Bible and claim that this is more *right* then other definitions of God; not merely just more right for you, but more right period. Yet ANY definition of God at all *limits* God, making him a finite creature. This is an idol.

You aren't being a very good monotheist.

Here's a question; Why do we need a definition at all?

I claim that it is only right for me, not for anyone else, infact my definition may be completely detrimental to every other person on the face of the planet.

As I have said with all my theology threads these are my thoughts for me only, I am just posting them so that others can understand me maybe just a little tiny bit better.

I define so that I can better understand, praise and worship him.

Which may be wrong for everyother person on the face of the planet.

As you have in your mind your definition of God, your understanding of God so that you can relate to him better within your own standard of understanding and relationship, I do the same for myself, every person on the planet is able to do so for themselves.

 

[Black_Bird]

That's all I wanted to make sure of.

 

[alltherage]

One could reasonably argue that if god did not exist man would have had to invent the concept. The idea of God is what held early societies together and what gave force and power to the laws they set out. Many of these laws, especially those concerning reproduction run against our natures. Theologians have spent centuries trying to define and therefore justify there own particular beliefs. With faulty logic and a basic premise which cannot be proved(the existence of god) they have sought power over our lives. They do so in the name of God and therefore feel justified in all there actions. To my mind there is no greater human sin than to be arrogantly self confident and self indulgent. In my experience the clergy are the greatest sinners of all of us. I see no need to live my life by someone elses definition of what is right or wrong. I strongly suspect that if there is a god that god loves the questioner far more than she loves the accepting self assured and proud crusaders. Anything that has brought as much death and destruction to the world as organized religion cannot be judged to be a good thing in my view.

 

[phrodeau]

Here's some useful material for E - 2 - c "The moral perfections of God":
Exodus 12:29
Numbers 16:1-50
Numbers 31:7-18
Joshua 10 & 11, especially 11:20
Judges 11:29-39
1 Samuel 15:1-3
2 Kings 1:9-12
2 Kings 2:23-24
2 Kings 10:1-17
Isaiah 13:9-18
Ezekiel 38:14-23
Hosea 13:16
Amos 4:4-12

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Todd you are defining Godo n the basis of One Scripture, there are literally thousands of texts across the earth which claim to be GOd's word. Tell me, how do you know which if any holds a valid claim?

I covered a lot of this in the bibliology thread.

and again I have to reiterate this is what is right for me. I don't expect or want it to be right for anyone else, if it is so be it, but this is what is right for me.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Then, may I ask why you are preaching at a porn site?

well in the last year there have been a lot of assumtions made as to what I believe and then whole arguments leveled against me based on these false assumtions.

I am laying out mmy beliefs so that people can better understand me and not make such erroneous assumptions in the future.

and you of all people should know that Literotica is more than just a "porn" site.

 

[TurboPower]

One could reasonably argue that if god did not exist man would have had to invent the concept. The idea of God is what held early societies together and what gave force and power to the laws they set out. Many of these laws, especially those concerning reproduction run against our natures. Theologians have spent centuries trying to define and therefore justify there own particular beliefs. With faulty logic and a basic premise which cannot be proved(the existence of god) they have sought power over our lives. They do so in the name of God and therefore feel justified in all there actions. To my mind there is no greater human sin than to be arrogantly self confident and self indulgent. In my experience the clergy are the greatest sinners of all of us. I see no need to live my life by someone elses definition of what is right or wrong. I strongly suspect that if there is a god that god loves the questioner far more than she loves the accepting self assured and proud crusaders. Anything that has brought as much death and destruction to the world as organized religion cannot be judged to be a good thing in my view.

Talk about generalization! With one sweeping comment, you relegate all attempts to understand with is truly not understandable as evil and wrong. I would say that this is very limited and shallow thinking. All humanity craves to understand; in fact, this is what science is all about - trying to understand what is not yet understood. Would you condemn scientists in the same way you have condemned theologians?

Your last statement is also baseless. Would you say that all sex is wrong because some misuse it (rape, incest, abuse)? Of course not - those that misuse it are wrong. In the same way, religion is not necessarily wrong simply because it has been misused by certain groups of people.