The Way Less Than Perfect, drawn to the lifestyle

[Pure]

This is a thread for the way less-than-perfect who may be involved in BDSM activities.

Look, courage and honesty are fine things--and some persons here have been known to practice them--but there are 'costs' of openness about sexually deviant tastes. There are gray areas where many of life's choices have to be made. This is not a search for approval. No one offended by this crowd needs to hang around; the aim is to understand one another, and not to deny things some have done.

These are some topics to talk about: It’s not a matter of 'the answers” or "Is this right or wrong?" If you have experiences that might be of help or interest to others 'in the same boat,' please feel free.


Generally, what has helped or hindered your attempts at honesty around BDSM- related tastes or desires?

Are any of your desires kept secret from your spouse or SO? Is there evidence that this secretiveness is necessary-- that you would not be accepted? (could the dire consequences be just your fantasy?)

Are BDSM leanings or desires what's behind your 'straying' from your spouse (if you have)? Could they lead that way? Are other desires also in play?

What made/makes deception around 'straying' seem to the best course, or the lesser of evils?

How does it feel to have a 'double life' in your marriage or significant relationship?

Do you feel these problems would make you a bad** dom/me or top? would make you a bad** sub or bottom?

{**Bad: unsuitable, not genuine, too fucked up to operate properly}

{Added, 7-15}

It's especially important for person practicing a perversion, or SM in particular, to really really have their shit together (to be past having _major personal issues_ that 'need to be worked on.'). Comment.
Are the requirements higher than for simple fucking?

OK, to command (dominate/top) others you have to know a bit--unless you're the 'Commander in Chief'--. But to command/top just one, do you have to be a General Patton? A 'self-realized' person--Ramakrishna or Krishnamurti?

How do you know when this blessed shit-togethered-ness is achieved? (If you have) How DID you know? (If not) Can one be just a tiny bit deviant in the mean time?


======

Further thoughts:

Temptress 1960 said,

/I'm not advocating dishonesty; I'm just commenting on the difficulty some of us lesser mortals have with taking the risk of being scorned or put down when we share our inner feelings and desires./

Besides secrecy, there is the issue of 'stepping out' on one's spouse, for SM activities or for other reasons, usually having to do with meeting one's needs; sometimes, yes, due to ‘moments of weakness’. It’s hoped there can be honest dialogue on this topic, without judgmental reactions or moral lectures.

What's the particular relevance to SM.? Here's one: Some of us, here, are 'subs' or seeking relationships as such. One runs into the Dom/me who is a person of High and Often Proclaimed Principle (the HOPP-er, in short). This person makes a point of saying, "Cheaters need not apply." {There are also Subs of Uncommon Virtue: SUVs}

There’s no problem with an honest dom/me, but with the HOPP-er’s puritanism and the public display. It reminds one of gay HOPP-ers: Apparently to compensate for the deviation, this gay or lesbian person has to constantly affirm their principles, proclaim the extraordinary honesty of their relationships.

These principled dom/mes, besides saying personally that they want nothing to do with the 'lesser mortals' (in Temptress' terms), want to publicly denounce the lesser ones as unprincipled, 'amoral', selfish, cruel and so on.

Many persons here have encountered the labels: 'selfish' ‘irresponsible’. They have an element of truth. But the lie is that there’s a contrast with the ‘normal’ or ‘principled’ (self-said) inhabitants, the HOPP-ers and SUVs, of the BDSM world. There is likewise no joy in another’s hurt, but that’s happened. Pieces of self-interested behavior are not something to lash oneself about, and those who 'step out' are not necessarily the prime examples of selfishness.

The husband who forces his wife to meet his needs, having sex his way or not having it, is in the same boat. The one who would say "[Deviant practice]--Eeewww, not in my house; my way or highway" is as selfish as the one who says "I need to do [deviation] and will do so secretly if necessary; it's a force I cannot deny."

{Added 7-15 : Sexual sins, extramarital fucking in particular, are not the be all and end all, the absolute criteria of true virtue. The non-sexual peccadillos and their relationship to SM and the ability to practice it, are also appropriate thread topics.}

 

[kayte]

Hi there!!!

I am far from perfect. Just ask Him.

The 'life' is a journey with many difficult decisions. We are just doing it in a way that is not the mainstream.

I can't talk about that part of my life with parents, brother's etc. And that can make it a bit lonely.

But it is worth it.

 

[Quint]

Hmm, is this confessional going to interfere with your Top-opolis dogma, Rabbi Pure?

I am selfish. I would get the hell out of a relationship where my needs weren't being met. Is that mutually exclusive from "selfless"? What if being selfless is what you need? It circles around. I know I'm not selfless, but I need to act like it sometimes.

I have in fact told T every scary, taboo, nasty little thing I fantasize about. Hard as all hell. I don't think I could have told him if I hadn't secretly wanted to, wanted to come clean and give him a tool to have over me. In fact, I manipulated him into getting me to confess by dropping just enough hints and refusing just long enough that he pushed me. I didn't have the courage to say it outright, most of the time. So I resorted to what was easiest: telling him because he was "making me." Imperfect, I.

And I can relate to the "which is less-bad, to deny my needs despite the dishonest methods of achieving them, or to achieve those needs at the cost of my current and loving relationship?" I chose my needs. I was completely loved and I chose the new guy, the one who I desired, the one who I didn't even think of in terms of marriage, unlike the fiancee I was leaving. "I chose to be young," is how I thought of it. "I'm 19. I don't want to feel like I'm 40." I wonder how much was bullshit and hormones.

Why did I lie? It was easier. I was the dominant person in my previous relationship, not in a sexual manner but in the way that my way went. I got what I wanted when I wanted it. I figured that I could have my little online fling over the summer and come home to my loving fiancee. No harm, no foul. I was such a chickenshit. I gave less and less importance to what my lover and I had built up over two years until I could justify what I was doing. So he didn't sexually fulfill me. So neither of us understood or appreciated the other's chosen career. So I was young and restless and he was ready to settle into a comfortable horizontal line. So I lied to him and left him.

I'm not proud. I'm still carrying shame and fear that I'll do the same damn thing again. Sadder but maybe wiser.

 

[catalina_francisco]

First, without being judgemental about your opinions, it is clear out of your own remarks that you are judging others. Simply because they uphold to their principles, you scorn them, try to make fun of them, give them silly nicknames/acronyms. Why I wonder, such a strong reaction from one that is normally so emotionally controlled in his postings.

Well in any case, not claiming to be perfect, not claiming to judge others, only putting forward my opinion, (this is what should be clear anyway but to avoid having to say it ten times in a row, in ten different postings), what most of us are saying is very basic. You want to cheat fine, go ahead, know the risks, know what you are doing to others and do not expect us to be interested in a relationship with you. That is the whole message.

You however seem to take this personal. There is no reason for it, if you have cheated there are enough out there that will accept one such as you and there are some that will not. Any decision taken in life will have a direct influence on your life, some decisions are more important than others, and some could change your life.

For me the reasons are simple. I build relationships on honesty and trust. It is not in my self interest as a dominant, and in essence that is what we dominants are looking out for, number one, to try to teach honesty and trust to anyone. Nor am I inclined to take the risk of being involved in a ménage trois of which one participant does not even know they are part of a ménage trois.

These are selfish reasons but they are good enough for me, and a lot of dominants think alike. As a dominant, it is possible to train your sub to be almost anything you want them to be, but it is very difficult and time-consuming to teach someone honesty and trustworthiness and the result is not even clear. So although I like taking risks and like taking challenges, I do not see the need to take almost impossible challenges.

There are also lots of dominants who think differently.

Francisco

 

[MissTaken]

[The husband who forces his wife to meet his needs, having sex his way or not having it, is in the same boat. The one who would say "[Deviant practice]--Eeewww, not in my house; my way or highway" is as selfish as the one who says "I need to do [deviation] and will do so secretly if necessary; it's a force I cannot deny."

So, when does the individual's needs outweigh the needs of the family?

A legitimate question.

How does one make that decision?

 

[lady-kat]

Francisco.
i'm not "Pure" (no pun intended ;-) and so your post above was not addressed to me

but i would like to add a comment, if i may (?)

U said;
"You however seem to take this personal. There is no reason for it, if you have cheated there are enough out there that will accept one such as you and there are some that will not. Any decision taken in life will have a direct influence on your life, some decisions are more important than others, and some could change your life."

well......
if he did take it personal, (and not suggesting he did) then he was not alone in doing so. i freely admit, to not being perfect in any way shape or form. but honestly, did not expect that i would get "taken to task" on a public porn (?) forum for engaging in on-line sex with someone (and r/l skin to skin in the future ;-) while still married. or was it, i wonder, because i made, and still make, no apology for doing so. *shrug* i cannot say for sure.

i watched, and niavely participated in, the two threads dealing with this subject. i saw myself, and others, portrayed as a cheater, dishonest, untrustworthy, cowardly..... etc. etc. 'ad nausum'... and was told to go lie to my husband some more....

so ya.
i think it's fair to say some of us might have took what we perceived to be judgemental statements "personally"

your words above
"if you have cheated there are enough out there that will accept one such as you and there are some that will not."...
could be taken as judgemental. words like "such as you", imho, smack a bit of moral judgement. *shrug*... as is your right, and anyone else who cares to do so.

that being said;
this post is in no way a slam directed at you. i follow your posts and Catalina's with a great deal of interest, and my private apology to her in my PM was sincere, for my part/actions in the debauckle (sp?) in the other thread.


it is simply me, a married woman, stepping outside my marriage... "cheating" as some have said it here.....expressing my thoughts with some of what i have read here the last week or so.... and of course, only my opinion.... on the other side of the coin.

&

in keeping with the original thread topic and the author's questions:

Are BDSM leanings or desires what's behind your 'straying' from your spouse
nope. i'm perfectly capable of giving myself "satisfaction" in that area. my needs are for comapnionship/friendship in addition to bdsm.

What made/makes deception around 'straying' seem to the best course, or the lesser of evils?
my personal choice. someone else's milage may vary.
i genuinlly like my SO *chuckle* is why i married him in the first place. what he doesn't know, can't hurt him.

How does it feel to have a 'double life' in your marriage or significant relationship?
can't answer this one completely yet. come back to it when i can contribute something that makes sense.

Do you feel these problems would make you a bad** dom/me or top? would make you a bad** sub or bottom?

{**Bad: unsuitable, not genuine, too fucked up to operate properly}
nope.

 

[Native Alien]

I am going to stick in my two cents worth here. This is just my opinion and nothing else.

As to the my way or the highway, Damned straight. Why? Because I learned along time ago if I don't or won't stand up for myself, then people will run all over me. Is it a strictly "lifestyle" stance on things? No, not for me. I live my life this way. That is just the way it is.

Now, as to openness and honesty, apply when and where needed, as needed. There are just some things that I won't talk to anyone about. Period. Again, this is just me. It is not a "lifestyle" choice, it is a personal choice. I am open and honest about everything, but if I think that something personal is none of someone else's business, then I will tell them just that. That it is none of their business.

On the issue of straying, if you aren't getting what you need at home, then talk to your spouse about it. If your spouse won't talk to you about it, then get out. It isn't worth the misery and for goodness sake, that one about staying together for the children, give it a rest already. The spouse isn't going to change, you aren't going to change, and someone (more than likely more than one person), is going to get emotionally and mentally hurt at the very least.

*Steps down from soapbox*

 

[lady-kat]

Re: Re: The Way Less Than Perfect, drawn to the lifestyle

So, when does the individual's needs outweigh the needs of the family?

A legitimate question.

How does one make that decision?

MissT.
i can't even begin to imagine the hearache of that situation. for people with children (family) a person would almost have to be a solomon (sp?) to make a decision.

i know people will stay in a bad/not working, etc. marriage for the children's sake, and not put them thru a divorce, but...

that must be godawful hard. i watched my own two parents fight and belittle each other for many years, not sure i was any better off than if they had split. seems like the pain of a divorce would have been of shorter duration. (not bdsm related, but pain is pain for a child and young adult is my thinking)

 

[Ebonyfire]

As to the my way or the highway, Damned straight. Why? Because I learned along time ago if I don't or won't stand up for myself, then people will run all over me. Is it a strictly "lifestyle" stance on things? No, not for me. I live my life this way. That is just the way it is.

Hear, hear, well put!

 

[Caitlynne]

So, when does the individual's needs outweigh the needs of the family?

A legitimate question.

How does one make that decision?

This is a great topic, great because there is no answer, yet it can consume so much of our lives trying to find an answer...

As to the When? There is no magic line in the sand, where we can all find that kind certainty, because it is a constantly evolving circumstance. Time is fluid, needs and the ability to handle our needs is an ever-changing prospect. Some days it is easy to set aside our needs, (for a submissive) to serve glady in all we do, with no reward other than the reward all service can bring. Other days, we have no tolerance for anything other than meeting our own (greedy) needs. And of course every spot of grey in-between these two extremes.

This ever-changing condition is something that has been recognized by each and every culture from the beginning of recorded time. This is why societies and cultures develop rules, codes of conduct, and in general these codes of conduct seek to relieve all of us of facing those choices each and every day by offerieng us the 'easy solution'--An generalized and acceptable answer.

These rules and codes of conduct 'do the work for us', if we choose to allow it. We don't have to think, we only have to follow existing cultural standards of conduct. Some people do the work for themselves, look at their lives and their needs and do the best they can. But regardless of which side of this coin one may find themselves on, each person will suffer the consequences of their choice.

I submit that the answer to 'How one choses' in more complex than even the minds on this MB have the time to discuss. How we all come to these decisions is individual. It is in the excercise of free will, that each and every one of us makes these decisions, each and every day.

It is in making these decisions and living with the consequences, good and bad, that we evolve as human beings. There is no short cut. There is no easy 'rule' that will light the way each and every time we seek to answer the question, "Where is the line between serving others and seving my own needs". It is a constant conflict, a constant stream of questions that the mind asks in search of its answers. And it should be constant! It should be constantly evaluated, because time changes things (nothing remains static), because needs change and because if we don't constantly ask ourselves where that line is, we stand the change of crossing it more often than we can personally live with.

I'll say this, it is easy to judge others, easy because we do not have to live with the consequences of their choices and easy because we do not live in their skin. I'll add, the only thing I truly cannot deal with and sometimes I even hate-- a judgmental person. Yet in saying that, I have judged!

I offer this, it is not circular, in that there is no answer, it is circular in that each decision in life persents more questions--and so it goes. There is an answer to this question each and every time just prior to taking action. In a 1000 little ways we makes these choices, whether we realize it or not. But regardess of the choice, we all live with the consequences of our actions. That is the only thing that will ever remain constant. We are responsible for our actions.

What we actively do to others, and what we 'do' to ourselves, creates a consequence that we must live with. The line is one each of us determines for ourselves and we can do that because we are the ones who have to live with it.

None of us is completely innocent, none of us knows the answers for someone else.. Hell, truth be told it is hard enough to find our own answers, let alone preach to others.

Just my 2 cents ..... Your milage may vary!

~ Cait

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: Re: The Way Less Than Perfect, drawn to the lifestyle

MissT.
i can't even begin to imagine the hearache of that situation. for people with children (family) a person would almost have to be a solomon (sp?) to make a decision.

i know people will stay in a bad/not working, etc. marriage for the children's sake, and not put them thru a divorce, but...

that must be godawful hard. i watched my own two parents fight and belittle each other for many years, not sure i was any better off than if they had split. seems like the pain of a divorce would have been of shorter duration. (not bdsm related, but pain is pain for a child and young adult is my thinking)

yes, it is difficult.

For me, it was made easy as leaving what was in the best interests of the children.


And no, I am not one who thinks staying together for the sake of teh children is the right answer.

In terms, of "cheating", consider me "pro choice." It is a choice I haven't made and can't see myself making, but wouldn't judge another for making an informed and responsible choice.

 

[Native Alien]

Thank you Ebonyfire for the vote of confidence.


The point is that no one can make a decision for anyone else. Not knowing the circumstances of another's situation nor both sides of the story, (and there are always two, folks, and sometimes even three), I would not want to even venture a guess about what another should do.

What I can do is be a friend, help when I am asked, and give them a place to vent, talk, and figure out what their options are and which one is best for them. I learned along time ago to not be in someone else's affairs.

So as my great grandmother says,"Never judge another until you have walked at least 10 miles in their moccasins."

 

[niteshade]

I have not ever felt a need to step outside of a relationship I was having... any needs I have had, I either put them aside, or discussed it w/ the one I was with. Honestly, that has been a rare situation for me, as I have been lucky enough to find partners who fulfilled the needs I had at the time. Does that mean that I would never "cheat" on someone? I don't feel that I can say yes.... In my short life, I have already done many things I thought I would never do, so I now avoid the word NEVER. I have had partners who needed something extra... something that I either was not capable of giving, or did not desire to give, or maybe who just wanted the excitement of the "different." I made the decision as a teenager that I would not allow someone else's actions, in regards to cheating, to make me miserable. It seems to me that the more forbidden something is, the more one covets it, so I give my partners freedom in that respect, on one condition- Don't lie to me about it. Does this attitude make me a freak? I have been told so, but I prefer to be a happy, well adjusted freak rather than a despondent, obsessed woman who allows another’s behavior to rule my life.

LOL… that was a bit of a ramble, but oh well. If it is too confusing, ask and I shall clarify.

 

[Pure]

Reply to Francisco

Francisco said what's quoted at the end.

It's pretty civilized and avoids the hysteria of Mayberry or the passionate indictment of Catalina. However the world pictured, and the sermon about it are pretty much the same, with one big exception. The moralizing, the 'you’re no good', the 'my ethics are preferable' has been dropped, an embarrassment, no doubt, and a 'self interest' argument substituted in all prominent parts.

Though it's more delicately phrased, the new argument has the same rotten (fallacious) core, which has two parts. First. There is a caricature; a bogey man has been created. The Cheater. This person is an abstraction of evil, in being cold, repeatedly betraying, hurting the undeserving spouse, and so on.

The real people who sometimes choose to stray are ignored: they are the good and the bad, the selfish and the not-so; some, in fact, are more ‘sinned against’; they are your mother, your sister, your brother. About half of those married adults you know, in fact. The new argument is a little more subtle, but has lines other posters have noted

if you have cheated there are enough out there that will accept one such as you

Second, a black-and-white world has been created: like the old westerns with the white hats and the black hats; as children we cheered for the good guys and booed the outlaws and the Indians. But we learned that wasn’t real. Now, rather than seeing those sharp contrasts, the saved vs the unwashed, the upright vs the cheaters, we see that most people are in the gray zones.

One might think there actually is a real world of black and white, which enables the saved only to associate with the other fortunate ones, and shun the unregenerate. But even among the self-said virtuous, the 'white', are the same range of sins, lust and selfishness; yes, even lies and cheating, when you scratch the surface. The wives and husbands, brother and sisters, sons and daughters, all carry on and do the same misdeeds as anyone else; they live in the real shades of gray, regardless of the preaching, the fine talk and self praise, the orisons of 'we are the chosen.'

The new argument does not have the obvious moral slant on the division, but the division is there. The Principled and The Others.

You want to cheat fine, go ahead, know the risks, know what you are doing to others and do not expect us to be interested in a relationship with you.

Let's come back to the caricature: Once this is in place, the line of thought proceeds: "A cheater is a cheater is a cheater; What will they do? Cheat. What else could they do." So the position of the dom/me, now newly expressed by Francisco in terms of self interest, is pretty obvious: Who the fuck would want to waste time with such a person:

it is very difficult and time-consuming to teach someone honesty and trustworthiness and the result is not even clear.

But Francisco’s self interest approach doesn’t really work, since it ignores real people. Real persons who stray do not always need to be taught honesty or trustworthiness. Some do not lack the moral stature as Francisco. Some have good character and are teachable; and indeed, some are the type Francisco fixates on, rotten. Here there is just a recycled a version of the "who'd want to associate with them" argument that always works with a caricature, and unreal construction.

This caricature can't be taught because of their corrupt essence; they're rotten to the core. Francisco said, in the 'mother thread.' They’re liable to do it again.

If a person has cheated once who is to say they are not going to do it again, but this time cheating on me.

Exactly. From essence, shown outwardly in a single slip, can only come the same.

But wait! That creates an embarrassingly small a population of the saved. Maybe one. The single slip to ruin, so beloved of past moralists and preachers, really cuts down on the population of the heaven bound.

Hence the rephrase.

And again I am talking here about repetitive cheating.

Which brings us to the Bible, invoked by Francisco, in the other thread

a final note for the ones who so now and then look through the bible and read the Commandments. Remember though shall not kill, though shall not....

Francisco’s position is actually not quite that of the Bible; that book has fewer convenient adjustments: It does NOT say "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor, repeatedly." It does NOT say, "Thou shalt not commit adultery repeatedly."

Ironically, on the adultery topic the Bible shows staying with the unfaithful wife (OT, Hosea) and says in the NT "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Peace.

J.


====
Francisco said,

First, without being judgemental about your opinions, it is clear out of your own remarks that you are judging others. Simply because they uphold to their principles, you scorn them, try to make fun of them, give them silly nicknames/acronyms. Why I wonder, such a strong reaction from one that is normally so emotionally controlled in his postings.

Well in any case, not claiming to be perfect, not claiming to judge others, only putting forward my opinion, (this is what should be clear anyway but to avoid having to say it ten times in a row, in ten different postings), what most of us are saying is very basic. You want to cheat fine, go ahead, know the risks, know what you are doing to others and do not expect us to be interested in a relationship with you. That is the whole message.

You however seem to take this personal. There is no reason for it, if you have cheated there are enough out there that will accept one such as you and there are some that will not. Any decision taken in life will have a direct influence on your life, some decisions are more important than others, and some could change your life.

For me the reasons are simple. I build relationships on honesty and trust. It is not in my self interest as a dominant, and in essence that is what we dominants are looking out for, number one, to try to teach honesty and trust to anyone. Nor am I inclined to take the risk of being involved in a ménage trois of which one participant does not even know they are part of a ménage trois.

These are selfish reasons but they are good enough for me, and a lot of dominants think alike. As a dominant, it is possible to train your sub to be almost anything you want them to be, but it is very difficult and time-consuming to teach someone honesty and trustworthiness and the result is not even clear. So although I like taking risks and like taking challenges, I do not see the need to take almost impossible challenges.

There are also lots of dominants who think differently.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Second, a black-and-white world has been created: like the old westerns with the white hats and the black hats; as children we cheered for the good guys and booed the outlaws and the Indians. But we learned that wasn’t real. Now, rather than seeing those sharp contrasts, the saved vs the unwashed, the upright vs the cheaters, we see that most people are in the gray zones.

Pure, I am surprised to see you apply a blanket statemen to generalises behaviour of all of us. I for one ALWAYS cheered for the Indians, and still do in fantasy and real life, and I also often cheered for the one portrayed as the 'black hat' as quite often they were not the villian they were portrayed to be. So seems you who feels nothing is black and white, and wants to be seen as making an individual choice, were quite happy to go with the crowd in at least this, and to my thinking 'cheating' also, as most do accept it as the done thing, simply because they have either grown tired of fighting against the rising tide of slipping morals in this society, or are more into the 'think of myself first and foremost' mode.

Yes decisions are never easy to make, but adults used to be expected to make them while also considering how thier actions affected others. I actually remember reading an article a couple of years back on the loss of shame in today's society. It outlined how real shame has become nearly non-existant because people have forgotten how to think of others and how their actions can damage the lives of those who have no say in the matter...a sort of 'I'll do as I want and fuck you' society. I have to reflect now it was largely true as I don't know people who feel shame anymore.....embarrassment perhaps, but that is different and based more on the concept of being caught out than the remorse attached to shame.

As I have stated countless times, that is a choice everyone makes for themselves and can only make for themselves. And far from your insistence I judge others (which of course in saying so you do not I notice) and hold myself above them it might interest you to know several of my closest friends have cheated. They have never felt I have judged them and have found me very supportive in listening and letting them sort their heads out, but then they were mature enough also to know just because I live my life one way, I do not push that onto them, and surprise, surprise, I can still be their friend.

Have actually been told by 2 recently they appreciate I am honest and can be relied on to maintain my basic ethics and beliefs as they know who I am and that I'm not going to feed them false bullshit, but will also not abuse them and expect them to be a carbon copy of me, just if asked, to pose the questions they need asked to clarify what they want and need. Nothing worse for myself than going to a friend with a problem, have them pat you on the back and say 'good on you', and then when thiings go wrong or you see the error of your ways they turn around and say 'well I thought you were stupid but didn't want to say anything'. Some friend....good time friends I thnk they are sometimes referred to.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

The world according to Francisco

The world according to Francisco

To me, the world as a dominant is quite simple, I set out my rules and my partners live by them. I choose my partners based on a matrix which is quite simple, I look at the character, their intelligence, their honesty and their trustworthiness. If those points meet my criteria I will go and look deeper into someone’s soul to see if we are compatible, and then I will look to see if I find my possible candidate attractive. I choose and decide who is going to be my partner, very simple and straightforward, by doing so I judge them to see if they meet my standards. Everyone is judged by their possible partner; everyone chooses and judges their possible partners be it for a long term relationship or be it for a play scene by their own criteria.

To give an example:

Suppose you are at a party and you are looking for a play partner, some are fortunate enough to have possible candidates drop at their feet and some have to hunt them down. However every time you look at a possibility you judge them to see if they are compatible. Some people look at the size of their feet or how big the cock is or the colour of their eyes and some look at other faculties. However whatever your criteria are you are judging, weighing, making decisions based on your own criteria. This is life at least for me.

In my own little world I rule, I set out my commandments to be followed, some are quite harsh and some are quite mild. This is how dominance works for me, my world, my rules, my punishments and my slave. I am quite willing to discuss the finer points of it with anyone, but if someone becomes my partner she (and I say she because I am heterosexual and am not interested in a male slave, another one of those criteria) lives by my rules in my world.

I judge a possible candidate on how they present themselves and what they have done in the past. So yes, if someone has committed adultery (since the word cheating is so loaded here) they fail to meet my standards for a possible candidate, very simple, quite black and white and yes judgemental in choosing my partner. I can afford to be such since I have never have had a lack of partners. Not that I am a Tom Cruise look-alike quite the contrary.

If you want to go around and fornicate while not informing your partner, it is your life, your decisions and your future, not mine, and I do not judge you on it as a person. Be informed about the risks you take. However I will just not be interested in you as a partner, you will not meet my criteria to be let into my world.

Francisco.

 

[Temptress_1960]

Re: Re: The Way Less Than Perfect, drawn to the lifestyle

So, when does the individual's needs outweigh the needs of the family?

A legitimate question.

How does one make that decision?

It is indeed a legitimate and very difficult question.

I don't have an answer for it.

I would never "stay together for the sake of the children" in an abusive marriage, or a marriage where I didn't like my spouse.

But a marriage that's basically OK? No real reason to leave? I don't know. There are a lot of entanglements there. Financial, emotional... not just with the 2 people in that marriage, but their extended families and friends as well.

I'm lucky. After a fairly serious marital catastrophe (not caused by me, btw, though I take responsibility for things getting to that point) we did some readjusting, trying to fit together as the people we had become after 18 years of marriage, raising 3 children, and all the ups and downs of that 18 years. It's an ever-evolving process, and there are days when it works extremely well... and others when it seems like way too much effort. It takes both of us to be willing to make those adjustments, however. I'm not sure how it would have worked out so far if either of us did not choose to adjust.

And that is what has helped me to be more open about my needs and desires, regarding BDSM, sex, and other issues in my life.

I don't keep anything secret any more from my spouse. Or from my lover, for that matter. That's not to say that my spouse is able to fulfill all my needs and desires. And I am not always able to fulfill his.

Sharing your fantasies/desires can be a risk. Especially if one of those fantasies is to be with someone different.

I can understand where deception about straying might seem to be the best course. It is a huge and irrevocable step to end a relationship, especially a marriage. And if your marriage is "OK," not mind-blowing after however many years, it might be a way more drastic step than one is willing to take.

I think most of us have a "double life" to some extent. With the semi-open marriage that we have, it certainly is not something we can discuss with our families. So there is a lot of caution there, not to reveal things that are personal to us, yet still a big part of our life together.

Whether "hidden straying from a marriage" would affect a D/s relationship, I don't know. I think it would depend on the parameters of the D/s relationship. Certainly with someone vehemently opposed to such deception, it would not work.

I do think that a blanket condemnation or endorsement of infidelity is very close-minded. As has been said in the earlier replies here, unless it's your life and all those things that affect it, you have no basis to judge the choices made by others.

On the other hand, we choose our own partners. And if you don't approve of extra-marital relationships, don't choose someone involved in one. If you don't like men with hairy backs, don't choose someone hirsute. If you only want skinny Barbie-doll women, then don't choose anyone over a size 6. If you are totally heterosexual, don't choose someone of your own gender.

But - and here's the important part of choice - don't put down, judge or condemn those who do not fit your vision of what is attractive/acceptable.

 

[MissTaken]

Along the same vein as francisco's and temtress' posts, there are things I do not look for or accept in a potential partner.

That francisco doesn't see himself accepting a partner who has a history of wandering from her previous relationships without openess doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me. What's the fuss?

My own views on the issue are dictated in part by my upbringing, experience and the kinds of relationships I have shared. Values are not whimsical things for many and as we grow older, they seem to be laid in concrete.

Now, my values differ from many here. Does that mean I will not spend time with them, respect them or like them? No. However, there may be times when the difference in values would mean I would not engage in an intimate relationship with them or them with me.

 

[Pure]

Catalina said,

//As I have stated countless times, that is a choice everyone makes for themselves and can only make for themselves. And far from your insistence I judge others (which of course in saying so you do not I notice) and hold myself above them it might interest you to know several of my closest friends have cheated. They have never felt I have judged them and have found me very supportive in listening and letting them sort their heads out, but then they were mature enough also to know just because I live my life one way, I do not push that onto them, and surprise, surprise, I can still be their friend. //

I think in person you're likely as you say. I'm sorry we're not meeting. On this thread, however, you've taken up a lot of posturing about the 'untrustworthy' and the those lacking in the ethics department.

Would you answer some simple questions:

Assume for the sake of argument that they were interested in submission and finding a dom/me. OK?

Do you agree with Johnny, that your two friends couldn't genuinely submit, and that a dom needs them like a third nipple?

Do you agree with Francisco, that they are shown to be untrustworthy, and that it'd be a fools errand for a dom to try to teach them honesty?

Did you say to them, I'm roughly quoting Francisco, "Maybe you can find find some persons for relationships who do not mind people such as you."

Best,

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Would you answer some simple questions:

By all means Pure, if it makes you feel better.

Assume for the sake of argument that they were interested in submission and finding a dom/me. OK?

Do you agree with Johnny, that your two friends couldn't genuinely submit, and that a dom needs them like a third nipple?

Most definately, if they were in the relationship with their SO, or had a succession of cheating relationships. In fact, depending on the friend, I might actually tell them they need to get their shit together before messing with anyone elses life, and in the process potentially endager, or at the least, mess her own life up for many moons to come. If I were them I would appreciate someone waking me up to my insensitive, dangerous, thoughtless, and careless ways.

Do you agree with Francisco, that they are shown to be untrustworthy, and that it'd be a fools errand for a dom to try to teach them honesty?

Yes I agree they are basically dishonest if they are happy to cheat and see nothing wrong with it. I see honesty as something integral in your personality. You may do something dishonest, and go through mental hell with guilt over it, but to continue indefinately, and with a list of excuses of why it is in your SO's best interests, is dishonest and denial. Let's face it, I doubt a person goes out looking for an affair in the interests of their So's health and mental well being....more in their own interests of momentary pleasure. If not happy....leave. As was stated before....you are not going to change, your partner is not going to chanfge, why prolong the agony. Life is too short.

Did you say to them, I'm roughly quoting Francisco, "Maybe you can find find some persons for relationships who do not mind people such as you."

Best,

J.

Wel I don't really get this question as I don't know to whom I am to have said it, but I might tell a friend they may find someone willing to accept their deception, as I am sure there are, but I would also give them my take on how far they could maybe excpect to trust them, advise they question their motives, and look at safety. For myself if a D was happy with dishonesty etc., I would presume he had no trouble being dishonest himself, and I would certain ly not happily and gullibly say 'Oh great domly one, tie me up and have your way....I know you'll stop if I use the safe word." Then again many are gamblers aren't they...***** is a high stake though in my books.

Catalina

 

[MissTaken]

Catalina said,

Would you answer some simple questions:

Assume for the sake of argument that they were interested in submission and finding a dom/me. OK?

Do you agree with Johnny, that your two friends couldn't genuinely submit, and that a dom needs them like a third nipple?

Do you agree with Francisco, that they are shown to be untrustworthy, and that it'd be a fools errand for a dom to try to teach them honesty?

Did you say to them, I'm roughly quoting Francisco, "Maybe you can find find some persons for relationships who do not mind people such as you."

Best,

J.

But a question?

If you are given a choice, do you prefer to offer your trust to someone who has demonstrated only trustworthy behavior in their previous relationships or someone who hasn't?

Keeping in mind that when you are first getting to know someone, you have only their perception of the problems leading to adultery and not their SO's. Somewhere in between, lies the truth.

*Playing devil's advocate here*

 

[Netzach]

The other woman speaks

If we, as a society

didn't ridicule men

in the butt of a million jokes:

for wanting to wear panties
for wanting to be babied
for wanting to be taken care of and helpless
for wanting to be told what to do next
for wanting to submit to a wife
for wanting to lick dirty feet

if "I want to lick your toes"

were as acceptable as

"I want to kiss my wife on the lips"


If we didn't ridicule them, fire them, expose them, question them....

I think there'd be more honesty. I think more honesty would be safe. So long as dishonesty remains safer than honesty, I'm not going to question anyone's imperfect morality.l

 

[niteshade]

Re: The other woman speaks

<snip>
If we didn't ridicule them, fire them, expose them, question them....

I think there'd be more honesty. I think more honesty would be safe. So long as dishonesty remains safer than honesty, I'm not going to question anyone's imperfect morality.l [/B]

I agree w/ this statement completely. Actually, that is the basis for my view on "stepping out" in any relationship I am in. The one thing in this life that can hurt me beyond belife is being lied too.... therefore, I try my hardest to make it much safer for my partner to be honest w/ me about their wants and needs, than to lie to me about what they were doing. And yes, a lie of omission is still a lie IMO.

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: The other woman speaks

I agree w/ this statement completely. Actually, that is the basis for my view on "stepping out" in any relationship I am in. The one thing in this life that can hurt me beyond belife is being lied too.... therefore, I try my hardest to make it much safer for my partner to be honest w/ me about their wants and needs, than to lie to me about what they were doing. And yes, a lie of omission is still a lie IMO.

I run my relationship the same way, you are not weird, we are, just, unfortunately, in the minority.

If I meet someone who'se SO hasn't figured this out, I don't consider that my problem, however. People who demand to be lied to and then get upset if lied to will always mystify me.

 

[Native Alien]

Yes, what Netzach said is true. I agree with the two posts above me. Thank you both for putting into words what I couldn't seem to get from a thought to a sentence.