The Vulnerablilty of Dominants

[rosco rathbone]

There are probably threads about this back in here somewhere, or even in the last couple of days, and if the board culture seemed concerned with "thread multiplication", I'd feel bad about starting a new one. But it doesn't, and so I don't.

SO here's the deal. I see a lot of people talking about "how easy it is to hurt submissives". I am interested in knowing about this, but I am far more interested in knowing about " how easy it is to hurt dominants". Everyone knows that submissive people are big balls of exposed raw feeling waiting to be trampled upon. I'd like to see a bit of honest discussion about the feeeeelings of the cool, always-in-control other people.

Jealousy? Manipulations? Vulnerablilty?Betrayal?Passion? Love-and its black brother; hatred?

Anyone with something to say, let out a peep.

 

[Red Menace]

Peep!

Ya know, I never gave it much thought until recently. It must be hard to be a Dom. Always having to be in control, making decisions that affect you and your sub, wondering if your sub wants more from you, or maybe less, walking the line between being a firm disciplinarian and a compassionate lover, planning scenes and making sure everything goes smoothly.

I would think it actually takes quite a bit of vulnerability to put yourself on the line like that. And what if, despite all your hard training, your sub still embarasses you in front of the other Doms? Or maybe you wonder if the sub thinks some other Dom is more skilled with a whip...

 

[Persephone36]

Personally, I think people are people.

Anyone can be hurt.

 

[zipman]

There are probably threads about this back in here somewhere, or even in the last couple of days, and if the board culture seemed concerned with "thread multiplication", I'd feel bad about starting a new one. But it doesn't, and so I don't.

SO here's the deal. I see a lot of people talking about "how easy it is to hurt submissives". I am interested in knowing about this, but I am far more interested in knowing about " how easy it is to hurt dominants". Everyone knows that submissive people are big balls of exposed raw feeling waiting to be trampled upon. I'd like to see a bit of honest discussion about the feeeeelings of the cool, always-in-control other people.

Jealousy? Manipulations? Vulnerablilty?Betrayal?Passion? Love-and its black brother; hatred?

Anyone with something to say, let out a peep.

Very interesting idea Rosco. I guess the only vulnerability I feel is - imperfection. There are many in this lifestyle who view Doms as either being infallible or needing to be infallible. I am no less guilty of this misperception.

I put a tremendous amount of effort into educating myself, practice in observing and monitoring a sub during a scene (to ensure safety in addition to providing pleasure) and communication and listening to really hear what a sub is saying, understanding so that I know what their needs and limits are etc.

And for all this, I constantly worry that I will do something wrong, whether that is just being clumsy in my technique or really hurting someone by accident.

Although I have never had a sub use a safe word, it still worries me. I think we Dom/mes put as much pressure on ourselves as the subs who look to us for guidance and direction with safety.

 

[lavender]

 

[rosco rathbone]

Re: Re: The Vulnerablilty of Dominants

That's an interesting way to view a sub. I must disagree wholeheartedly. I would, however, like to know why you state this.

I was being kind of sarcastic.

Zipman: I can dig what you are saying, but you talk in very clinical terms, as if you were a top-flight brain surgeon expressing his fears that some day he might fuck up and lobotomize a patient accidentally.

I think that the surface terms of D/S conceal hidden depths of counter-manipulation, heartbreak and surrender. I'd be very interested to hear from any "dominant-identified" people who have had their hearts crushed like a bug beneath the heel of a submissive person . Or is such a thing inconceivable, shameful or not to be spoken of?

roscoe

 

[NemoAlia]

All right, I'll admit to being the sub who once broke a Dom's heart. I had expectations that didn't jive with what the way that he lived. Although it wasn't a problem with the sex, per se, my near-constant dissatisfaction drove him to a level of insecurity that made him even less capable of living up to my dreams. It was a vicious cycle that neither one of us seemed capable of stopping, for all that we tried.

I think that Zip's post about being afraid to be imperfect is right on the money, as far as my experience is concerned. Subs do often have a romantic notion that the person in whom they trust is perfect. I mean, why would anyone give up control of themselves to someone whom s/he thought was going to be less qualified to take care of things than s/he him/herself was? No, I think that Doms are justified in their insecurity about their imperfections. Although subs almost never come out and consciously say, "You'd better be perfect, or else...," there's some sort of implicit ultimatum that many Dom/mes seem to fear.

Blech. I know I'm not making a whole lot of sense this evening. Still, despite my inability to think or type clearly, this is a very worthwhile thread. I'm looking forward to reading other, more coherent opinions on this subject.

 

[Azzy]

Personally, I think people are people.

Anyone can be hurt.

I so agree. What does it matter what you call yourself, or other's may call you?

Hurt is universal.

 

[zipman]

I so agree. What does it matter what you call yourself, or other's may call you?

Hurt is universal.

Of course I agree that anyone can be hurt, but I don't think that was the intent of the thread.

I think that Dom/mes, being in the position of control, are assumed to be less vulnerable to being hurt. I think that it is probably more likely that subs get emotionally hurt in BDSM relationships than Dom/mes do, but that is just an opinion.

I have never been betrayed or hurt by a sub, but certainly by ex-girlfriends.

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Peep!

Ya know, I never gave it much thought until recently. It must be hard to be a Dom. Always having to be in control, making decisions that affect you and your sub, wondering if your sub wants more from you, or maybe less, walking the line between being a firm disciplinarian and a compassionate lover, planning scenes and making sure everything goes smoothly.

I would think it actually takes quite a bit of vulnerability to put yourself on the line like that. And what if, despite all your hard training, your sub still embarasses you in front of the other Doms? Or maybe you wonder if the sub thinks some other Dom is more skilled with a whip...

Thank you, Red.

Originally posted by zipman7

Very interesting idea Rosco. I guess the only vulnerability I feel is - imperfection. There are many in this lifestyle who view Doms as either being infallible or needing to be infallible. I am no less guilty of this misperception.

I put a tremendous amount of effort into educating myself, practice in observing and monitoring a sub during a scene (to ensure safety in addition to providing pleasure) and communication and listening to really hear what a sub is saying, understanding so that I know what their needs and limits are etc.

And for all this, I constantly worry that I will do something wrong, whether that is just being clumsy in my technique or really hurting someone by accident.

Although I have never had a sub use a safe word, it still worries me. I think we Dom/mes put as much pressure on ourselves as the subs who look to us for guidance and direction with safety

Thank you, Zip.


And, after all of this, we compromise (yes, we compromise) to find the pleasure that meets our needs.

In the beginning, I spent a fair amount of time holding myself to a standard, to a role. I felt that I had to always know the right thing to do, the right decision to make. I couldn't be too hard or too easy. I couldn't be too controlling, but I couldn't let her flounder with confusion either. It is a difficult *role* to live up to if you set someone else's way of dominating as THE standard.

Once you find yourself and gain some self-confidence, it gets easier. Once you stop trying to be the *best* dom/me and just be yourself, it flows from you naturally. You are only as *domly* as you are. There really is no need to try to be more dominant or more perfect or more anything than you are.

 

[NemoAlia]

You are only as *domly* as you are. There really is no need to try to be more dominant or more perfect or more anything than you are.

Hear, hear, MsW!

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: Peep!

Thank you, Red.



Thank you, Zip.


And, after all of this, we compromise (yes, we compromise) to find the pleasure that meets our needs.

In the beginning, I spent a fair amount of time holding myself to a standard, to a role. I felt that I had to always know the right thing to do, the right decision to make. I couldn't be too hard or too easy. I couldn't be too controlling, but I couldn't let her flounder with confusion either. It is a difficult *role* to live up to if you set someone else's way of dominating as THE standard.

Once you find yourself and gain some self-confidence, it gets easier. Once you stop trying to be the *best* dom/me and just be yourself, it flows from you naturally. You are only as *domly* as you are. There really is no need to try to be more dominant or more perfect or more anything than you are.

Yes MsW, I agree. But even after all this time there is still one Dom who I find I still measure myself against sometimes. It is that unrealistic image of my own potential perfection that exists in my head.

Damn him!

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Re: Re: Peep!

Yes MsW, I agree. But even after all this time there is still one Dom who I find I still measure myself against sometimes. It is that unrealistic image of my own potential perfection that exists in my head.

Damn him!

LOL

And, isn't it great that he (she, for me) is still there, Zip!

Long live our goal of becoming our better selves! We will never reach perfection, but (if we care, as you obviously do) we will always strive.

 

[rosco rathbone]

yes yes, . I agree, it's best to be who you are to the best of your ability, and so on, and so forth.

Now let's hear about betrayal and expectations which did not work out and self-opinions gone muddy under the weight of insecurity.

 

[MsWorthy]

yes yes, . I agree, it's best to be who you are to the best of your ability, and so on, and so forth.

Now let's hear about betrayal and expectations which did not work out and self-opinions gone muddy under the weight of insecurity.

Rosco, why don't you start us out on this topic.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Rosco, why don't you start us out on this topic.

gah , alright. I can't get into it tonight but I will try tommorrow.

rr

 

[minnie the minx]

I think that the surface terms of D/S conceal hidden depths of counter-manipulation, heartbreak and surrender. I'd be very interested to hear from any "dominant-identified" people who have had their hearts crushed like a bug beneath the heel of a submissive person . Or is such a thing inconceivable, shameful or not to be spoken of?

My heart has been crushed by my lover, friend and sub

It was always a difficult relationship (but at other times the most wonderful relationship you could wish for). He craved to submit to me 24/7, which I thought was hard seeing as at the time we were living apart (I'm not really into online BDSM, no offence to those that are ), but as soon as he got what he craved he would fight against it eventually, and me not being a very experienced Domme, I found it hard to strike the right balance. But we both tried really hard at it, and we had our successes and our downright failures.

The night we finished he was constantly pushing me to be very dominant towards him, we'd been going through another rough patch, and I was tired, but to try and please and to make things right, I gave in to the pressure and gave him exactly what he was after. He was wanting me to order him to my house, so then any decision about it would be out of his hands. I was more than happy to dish out an order like that but his "oh I'll see what I can do" attitude made me think sod this, he wanted this, so I'm carrying it out. I pointed out that his attitude was typical of him, he'd push and push and push, then when I delivered he'd fight back. I was then told "fuck you" I'd kind of gotten used to this over the time we'd been together, but that night, I knew that I had to make a stand or forever be manipulated by him.

8 months down the line, he's still fucking with my head It makes me so sad, as we had some fantastic times and had a really good future planned out, but his subbie side was the ruin of us (that and my lack of experience in being a Domme). That relationship has scared me off ever being in a D/s relationship again, which is a shame, as they can be things of such beauty. Even just simple things like playing with a lover, I can't do anymore, as I'm just so afraid of those strong feelings.

God, sorry to have waffled, that was quite cathartic. That was the first time I'd been able to put most of those thoughts down. Thanks for putting up with it!

minnie
x x x x

 

[NemoAlia]

Thanks for sharing, minnie! It seems like Dom/mes aren't quite the creatures of mythical perfection that the novels make 'em out to be. Your courage even in the face of vulnerability is refreshing among so many stereotypes of Domly inaccessibility. Moreover, it's honest. Welcome to the thread!

 

[rosco rathbone]

will noone stop the milf hunter? He's sexing our moms! and you call yourselves men...

I'm not technically a "Dom/me", having skipped the apprenticeship program where you have to be a sub first, which will forever leave me unsure of proper colored handkerchief protocol, but I identify with dominants and am all controlling and like being on top and shit. So that sort of qualifies me to let out a blurt on this topic. I wish there were some sort of terms to use that would let me talk about dominant and submissive people without all the connotations and (to me) deep cheesiness of the whole official INternet bdsm culture thing. But, I will just have to work with what I have.

I'm interested in female-dominant relationships and the various games that go on there, but, as a man, I'm more interested in male-dominant relationships ( in the sense of "as they are portrayed on the internet").

To me, so much of the emotional charge behind the act of controlling another comes from a fundamental insecurity. It's obvious that is the basic motor to the whole thing."I will do what I need to do in order to ensure that my needs are met".

There is also a strong factor of a sort of affectionate "parental love" feeling, and according to the likes of Jon Jacobs it's that which doth the true dominant make. Now the last thing I want to get into here is another "real vs fake 'Dom/mes'" thing. (Ah, using "thing" twice in a sentence. A sign that the brain cogs are really grinding!) It's just that, having seen the deep insecurity in myself and how that affects my desire to control, be it in the sack or any other where, I want to know about others who may feel the same way as I. INsecurity is not the cause of all vulnerability, by any means, but it sure as hell helps.

Now that I'm really thinking about this. I'm realizing that my real interest on this topic is "what makes people (ie me) want to control others?".

The most intense relationship of my long life was with a woman who was, I like to say, the "Mike Tyson of Manipulation". A real 900 Lb Gorilla of maintaining the exact distance she required at any time. This was a normal relationship, no overtones of dee and ess, except when fucking, when it was extremely heavily me on top, her on the bottom. The anger I felt, the helplessness I felt at being allowed into her world and then pushed back out and safely held at arms length as it was convenient to her, came out very strongly in our physical relationship, which was like fire dating gasoline. That was the only time I felt safe revealing my intense anger with her. The rest of the time, I kept my mouth shut and played the part of the cool, invulnerable, not-jealous, not-possessive person, which was both my ideal self-image and what I imagined she wanted. Obviously, in hindsight this was completely backwards, but at the time there was no way I could bring myself to trust someone with such a track record of noli me tangere.

Babbling on here, having given up all hope of producing a coherent post: I find "submissive" women...man-pleasing women....women with, as a friend put it, "intense male focus"......to be fundamentally heart-breakers. Because they seem to be offering something that my gnarled soul craves so badly and yet have the power to take it away.

ALright, this is stretching my paint-fume addled bean to the limit. Hopefully it will have indicated the direction I have in mind for this thread.

rascoe

 

[Quint]

Initially, my "relationship" with T was driven by lingering anger on his part from his last relationship, where, to put it bluntly, he was the bitch. He tried to be everything that his girlfriend wanted him to be. The innate tendency for dominance was in him, but it was so largely suppressed as to be nonexistent. All sorts of spirit crushing and when he broke it off with her, there was residual frustration. I was a handy outlet, although he now would not vent on me for tension caused by someone else.

I can't answer the question "what makes people want to control others," as I'm rather on the opposite end of the spectrum. I do wish to give you the platitude of "not all subs are conniving manipulative bitches," and to let you know that I understand your frustration.

Hope this was relevant to the direction you wanted this thread to go.

 

[rosco rathbone]

well, that is just fascinating to me, although I'd really have to hear it from him to (start to) understand. It sounds real familiar, though. It also brings up an interesting possibility: that of the "dominant" being a "bitch". Surely such thing is an impossibilty.

rr

 

[rosco rathbone]

My Fair Lady

I grew up without a TV and missed all the classic movies that everyone takes for granted as part of the psychic background; so this is probably the equivalent of saying "Hey, everybody, read "Story of O", it's great!".

But.

"My Fair Lady" with Rex Harrison and Audrey Hepburn. It gave me a psychosexual hard-on. I started watching it because it was too hot and sticky to go out and ended up getting sucked in right away. I love the way the Professor calls her "insect", "baggage" and "woman" in such a brusque and off-handed way....the scene where she drives him into a rage and then practically melts into his arms, eyes closed and mouth open, sobbing " I KNEW you would strike me one day!"....and the last scene which knocked me out: Professor HIggins is sitting alone in his big empty house, listening to her voice on the Victrola. She appears in the doorway, radiant as a backlit Duchess in a pink gown and hat. He looks up and for a moment you can see that he is blown wide open by missing her. Then she whispers, in her Cockney accent "I washed me face and hands before I came", and his exterior mask drops over his face like door slamming shut. He leans back in his armchair, pulls his hat over his face, and says "now where the devil are my slippers". Stunning.

rr

 

[artful]

Thanks for the thread-yes,...it has been discussed many times,...

...proving to me that indeed it is a worthy topic.

I will make this short,...if not sweet. "A sub has the *POWER*, (as does the Dom/me), to nuke a relationship."

Each has the responsibility to help preserve the "Achilles" heel of the other, both within and without the relationship.

The SCARY part, is knowing one's heel is exposed to the whim of the other, if the relationship goes sour.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[WriterDom]

Contracts are broken. To say that only Doms break them reduces all subs to slaves. To say that a Dom shouldn't hurt from a broken relationship makes us less than human.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Contracts are broken. To say that only Doms break them reduces all subs to slaves. To say that a Dom shouldn't hurt from a broken relationship makes us less than human.

Absolutely. Everyone suffers when an emotional investment takes a dive. Doms invest as much, emotionally as subs do.

Rose