The value of opinions... what your value?

[KillerMuffin]

I've seen this over and over again and I'm getting a little sick of it, actually.

"I'm just not good enough to give any good feedback, but here's my story, could you look it over?"

I have to agree with daughter who has been saying this for a while. Don't just take, give a little.

I also think that the first part is true for people. They honestly believe they aren't good enough to give feedback. They read Unmasked Poet's or daughter's insightful feedback on poetry and think they have nothing to offer compared to that or they read my own long winded lectures on the importance of whatever it is I take into my head to run on and on and on about and think whoa, that's work and what are those words she's using. Indepedent clause? Comma splice???

But... what good are you when it comes to offering feedback? Do you think you carry any weight in your opinions? Do you think that you need to prove yourself in some way before you can offer feedback to others? Do you think that you fall short somehow? Do you believe that your opinion regarding anothers writing is somehow less than mine?

I think not. I think you're opinion is very valuable and very important. I doesn't matter to me if you have a Doctor of Philosophy in English or if you can only read words with two syllables in them. I don't care if you've never written a word for public consumption or if you're secretly a Nobel laureate. I doesn't make a difference to me if you know sic 'em about modifiers or if you know the best ways to apply adjectival phrases to subordinate clauses.

Why is your opinion extremely valuable to me? Why would I care so much about it? Because you're a wannabe writer? Because you've racked up a 5,000 post total? Because you've written a novel? Actually, none of the above. These things don't matter to me. The only thing about you that seriously matters to me when I read feedback from you is that you are a reader.

Readers are more qualified to give feedback than writers. Readers read, writers write. The reader enjoys the story or hates it. The reader notices the words that jar their attention. The reader wrinkles their noses when a character behaves out of context. The reader back clicks. The reader prefers present tense to past tense. The reader connects with me, the writer. The reader is the most important person to me in the feedback cycle.

The reader doesn't have to be a better writer than me to say, hey, I didn't like that, it didn't work for me. The reader just has to be a reader. If you can pick out why it worked for you, or why it didn't work for you, then so much the better. I liked this paragraph because I really liked the way the characters did things while they were talking. I hated that because I couldn't figure out what was going on.

Feedback does not come from the writer in you. Feedback comes from the reader in you.

There is no reason why you can't give feedback beyond your own inhibitions. Nothing is keeping you back but yourself. You have an opinion and you should not be afraid to express it. People will argue with you when they don't agree, but this forum is generally a sane one and we prefer a good discussion to arguments.

"I'm not good enough to give feedback." is a cop out and it's cheating everyone else of your own unique expertise as a reader. No one knows what a reader likes or dislikes better than a reader.

"I'm not good enough to give feedback." is a lie.

 

[mskittykatt]

hmm.

well, i have to admit KM that i was a bit shy and intimidated by some of the more seasoned members here. untill today, i choose to do what i want to, say what i think, and forget about what other people think of me...
this doesnt' give me a license to be rude or uncaring... just the freedom to express myself honestly in the moment.
soooo, lets see what the day brings, shall we?

 

[alltherage]

I have sent feedback to authors of stories I like frequently. I have sent suggestions too. I have no problem expressing my opinion and I assume nothing when I give it. I don't need to be right. What I don't want to do is debate over someone's work. It seems that, at least at times, debate at lit can become a tear down contest and I would not like to participate in that where someone's work is concerned. I hope that the feedback I send helps in some way. I guess I just feel more comfortable if it is between me and the author.

Perhaps, I should rethink this?

 

[Unmasked Poet]

KillerMuffin,

How I do love your rants!

 

[VeraGem]

Of Woad and Opinions

KM, you, long winded? No way...

Honestly though, I've a hard time giving negative feedback sans sugar coating. Till now I've stuck to dropping hints on how something could be improved, sticking to the 'if you don't have anything nice to say' adage. No more - I'm riled up and out for blood. (You look great in woad, by the way.)

I'm no English Lit major, you hit that nail on the head. I hated 'Death of a Salesman' when I wasn't supposed to and I think 'Lord of the Rings' is a literary masterpiece. That was a great way to get 'the stare' from instructors buried up to their necks in the mire of what we're all supposed to think. I prefer Henry Miller's 'Tropic of Capricorn' when everyone knows that 'Tropic of Cancer' is better. I like Stephen King too, even though many among the learned like to call him a hack. If only I could hack half as well.

From now on I promise to dig deep into my black bucket of vituperative epithets, shake out the really nasty worms and post what I think.

Oh shit, did I really say that?

 

[PAUL C]

Comenting

Personally. I re-view and comment on every story I have been asked to. I'm not good at it and it is not something that I would want to try and earn a living at doing. But if somebody has singled me out to ask then the least i can do is reply.

I do not normally seek re-views of my own work. i am only too aware that technically I am not a great writer and I do not wish to read three pages of somebody telling me that. However i do enjoy and appreciate all feedback, whether favourable or other. At least it shows that the story moved somebody enough to tell me what they thought of it. And that I think is important.

 

[daughter]

KillerMuffin

Gurlllllllllllllllllll, damn glad you're back. Thanks for saying what I apparently failed to articulate.

I hate that bullshit, "I can't say anything." Hell, you read it didn't you? If my story doesn't elicit any feelings within you, I'm worried.

Vera, welcome. Like your attitude and voice. I wonder if folks realize how hard it is to dance around shit instead of just being upfront. I know seasoned writers who no longer give critiques and feedback because they've been worn down by neophytes' complaining about feedback.

I'm not out to bleed anybody. Frankly, I think we're adults, and we should be able to have intelligent, engaging discussions without being overly concerned about how 'sensitive' a writer is.

Honestly, you post your words publicly, but you don't expect people to be candid? You're among your peers here. If you want gushing praise, keep sharing it with your friends and lovers.

I'm here for someone to tell me what's working in my work and why and to tell me what isn't working and why. Both are welcomed and valued. We don't have to agree. That isn't the purpose here. Hearing varying perspectives and drawing from them is. Toss or use.

This forum has undergone tremendous change for the better because core members have invested a lot of energy to support, educate, and encourage the writers here.

Say and think what you do of us oldies, but know that what is available to you here is because many of us took more than two minutes to read your precious works, sometimes at the expense of our own writing.

Peace,

daughter

 

[KillerMuffin]

I should add the qualifier...

I'm not seeking feedback for myself, though I love getting it as much as the next guy.

I'm seeking the new people who come into the forum and don't have anything to say beyond "New writer! Give me feedback!" Please, stay a while with us. Don't let yourself be intimidated by us because we're exactly like you are. Post your new writer, give me feedback thread, then go to someone else's new writer, give me feedback thread and give feedback.

Giving feedback via email is fabulous because it's more personal and you're speaking directly to the writer. You never have to worry about someone else disagreeing with how you saw a story beyond the writer.

Giving feedback here is fabulous as well because it can foster a discussion. Everyone can learn from what you had to say.

Give both. You don't have to give a lot. Some of us work at our computers all the time and it's nothing to be here a lot. Some of us do other things and it's hard to give a lot of feedback. But you read, right? Find a good story or poem, let us now about it. Follow a link on the board and you have an opinion about it, let us know! Giving a little is worth so much.

 

[TheWriter]

KM, I agree with almost everything you said. Just one little thing: I don't think that most readers prefer present tense. Ohter than that, spot on!

 

[Silentbob]

I'll be honest, I'm a new writer, and I'd want feedback....

BUT.......overall I'm too chicken to ask for it. I'll post my submissions to literotica (I have posted them other places), and if they are read and replied to from there, great! If not, oh well.

I'll tell you why I don't post for feedback though. I don't read people's stories that ask for feedback. I would rather read a story, and write the writer "hey, this is good, but I would change this," or "I'd start spacing your dialogue like so."

I'm brutal on my critiques when critiquing is a requirement, such as a writer's circle. Normally it bites me in the arse due to the fact that people wind up sicing revenge on me, either that or I'm the only one that points out the bad in writing that is "great"

The best example was people thinking Stephen King is a Hack. The books I've read from King I will defend till my dying day (Although I was a little disappointed that The Black House was a Dark Tower book in disguise). Alot of people don't see him as a good writer, but I do. I love the Godfather movies, but I couldn't sit through reading the books. The Princess Bride was a great movie, but did you know the book it was based off of was very long and drawn out?

Granted, of course, Books are normally better then movies

So I don't give feedback if it's asked for. It feels like a job to me. I'll talk about writing, and I'll write, but besides that if you saw feedback from me, it's because I read it at my leisure.

 

[Guest]

The feedback question.

Yes, I know, it’s a tough one. And I agree with you KM – in the most part. How do you get feedback on your work? It’s like running around in circles and nobody seems to notice.

For the lesser part, I think it sucks to read these dreadful words over and over again: “New writer – looking for feedback – just posted a hot interracial (or whatever) story!” Or this voting crap, like “hey, my story/poem just went up to no. 2”…

I don’t follow those self-promotion-links anymore. I prefer looking for the “author/reader recommends author”-postings. Because that’s were you find the good stuff.

Had to let this out. And I stop ranting now.

Sorry for grammar/spelling/accent.

 

[LakotaMoon]

oops - sorry - I was logged out. That was me.

 

[Guest]

Killer Muffin,

Feedback is a very funny position to take into your hands sometimes. Because I was an educator for many years, I find it very difficult to only find the flaws in something. It's always been a major deal for me to let someone know that I appreciated what they wrote and how they viewed something.

Sometimes when criticism is too harsh, especially to a child or someone just starting out, it can take away the desire they have to create. They can feel knocked down before they've even had the chance to discover more about themselves.

Feedback is tricky. You need to be tactful and very graceful at the same time. You need to praise the person's abilities and temper the criticism to a degree.

Giving the person incentive to keep at the writing process is another thing to think about. Who am I to stifle someone's personal veiw of a subject? Who am I to stifle someone's creativity? If I take away their desire to write because of harsh words, can you imagine how that will leave that person? They will feel like they have failed - they will feel dull and will be left wondering why they even tried.

Writing is so personal - it's from the heart and everyone has feelings. Kindness only takes a few words when used in conjunction with the harshness of reality. If you are a writer, you will always know the fear of rejection, you'll always feel the pain of criticism. But, when the writer can read words of praise mingled in with that - it makes them want to keep writing - to try again - to share once more.

Enchanted

 

[Camille]

Thoughts

I value all feedback I get. I use to think I was a decent poet, and then I started to read more. Thanks "Daughter" and I asked some advice thank you "Wicked." Now I realize I write a lot of crap although I'm stubborn and I will keep writing. I'm learning to give my opinions slowly, I want people to like me and telling them something sucked is hard for me. I wish I had Enchanted's eyes I also see the effort but all the emotion and meaning "don't mean squat" if it doesn't make it to the page. Lately I have concentrated on reading and I am going to make an effort at giving feedback. When I read poems on the #1 list and new poems list I see some good, but mostly every mistake I have made jumps out and slaps me from another writer’s poem. Isn’t it funny that we all write the same crap?

Cam

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: Thoughts

Lately I have concentrated on reading and I am going to make an effort at giving feedback. When I read poems on the #1 list and new poems list I see some good, but mostly every mistake I have made jumps out and slaps me from another writer’s poem. Isn’t it funny that we all write the same crap?

Cam

This is the value of joining in on the critique sessions. It's far easier to see your own mistakes in someone else's work. What happens to me is I see a flaw in a story, and I think to myself, "Hmmm. I wonder if I do that?" And when I go back to check, lo and behold, I DO do that. Hence, I learn (hopefully.)

 

[perks]

I critique when I have time. It is the last thing I do, I admit. It's not that I don't like to do it, it's that between taking care of my baby and trying to write my own stuff, sometimes it's difficult to conserve brain power for critiquing other people's work too.

 

[taurents]

If I can have my 2 cents worth here, I'm a new writer on this site and I LOVE getting feedback , if it praises me then I'm going in the right direction , if it criticizes me then I am doing something wrong and if I don't know then I'm not going to be read and THAT is the worst thing for ANY writer

EVERY SINGLE PERSON who accesses this site can and should give feedback if you don't then you are letting the idiots who give prizes for " AN UNMADE BED" (Folk in the UK will know what I'm on about ) free range over art in general , Remember The Millenium Dome Fiasco ? That happened because not enough people spoke their mind . Its all the Emperors New Clothes syndrome so EVERY ONE should say EXACTLY what they think

 

[taurents]

PS , sorry , me again , If you're going to send feedback then PLEASE dont be anonymous , I for one want to discuss with you what you don't like about my stories , it will help me do a better job next time . I will not give you a hard time for criticising me , I will be grateful that you have taken the time and interest to give me input . I do get frustrated when someone is anonymous ( see my seperate thread ) and I can't discuss things with you . I know of no other writers (I am a founder of http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ignite) who will fail to discuss legitimate criticism

 

[WhisperingWinds]

Another small take on feedback

All of these posts have thoughtful insight into the give and take on writing as well as "being new" to the community. For myself, I will say that it is a bit difficult for me to give feedback, but I will point out another reason for this problem. I feel fairly comfortable adding my two cents to feedback on stories. I write the authors often when I actually have the time to browse the new stories list. When it comes to poetry though, I am generally silent because I simply haven't read the work to comment. I am just beginning to read other poetry, and it scares the daylights out of me to do so. I love poetry. I am very opinionated about what moves me good or bad. I am stubborn enough not to read it because I am never sure I will not subconsciously use an aspect of someone else's piece in any of my later writing. If I don't read it, I know without a doubt in hell that a piece is from my heart and mind only. If I read other poetry work, the images or thoughts of it will stay with me for a long time much as music lyrics do. There is no desire for me to steal or emmulate another's writing. While I am very interested in being a part of the community and participating to the best extent possible, part of that respect to the people here is being restrictive in how often I read the work. I have not yet learned how to separate out the inspiration and imagery as well as I hope to some day. Maybe I will start a thread on suggestions for how to do just that.

Thanks for listening to a personal perspective.

 

[Ferris]