The use of "languages of old" to determine age

[CowboyPride]

I have just finished one story today and am awaiting its approval, but this question I pose is for my next story. I am planning to write a vampyr story and I want the language to stand out, showing how old that vampyr is. I have been thinking that will the story will continue in common and modern english, the dialogue of the vampyr, I think should show his age. Alive is this vampyr but centuries old is he. I have been studying different types of language, or I guess I should say different generations of language and have began to settle on two types of language. One language not being real, but has been used in a theatrical film, while the other is real but it may confuse the reader, or become a turn-off rather then a turn on. I am looking for suggestions on how I can make the age this vampyr from the 1500's seem much more real.

Note: I really do mean vampyr and not vampire. Here’s why.

The word 'vampire' derives from the Slavic word 'vampir' or 'vampyr', first appearing in the 1600s in the Eastern European region in the Balkans.
'vampir' is derived from 'upir', which first appeared in print in an Old Russian manuscript from 1047 AC in which a Novgorodian prince is referred to as 'Upir Lichyj' (Wicked Vampire).

The first language is that of "old english" that dates back to Shakespeare times and in is very common in the King James language of the bible. And example of the use of this would be:

"May thou accompany thee to thy chambers?" Asked him.

Another example is

"Be thou a cursed demon of the damned."

The second language that I have contemplating using is referred to as "Yodish", or if not familar with this are you, it is the language of Yoda from Star Wars. Some of the language that is used by Yoda seems to tell the story of his years. While this is not necessarily true, I perceive "Yodish" to be a language of one whom has gathered much knowledge over many a hundred years. And example of this would be:

"My own counsel will I keep ..." but in applying the rules of Yodish it should read "Keep my own counsel I will...". The former does sound much better though.

In my story I could use Yodish for the Vampyrs language.

As he finished recounting the story of his transformation, he looked deep into my eyes. His gaze barring into the depths of my soul before saying "...suffer the same fate you will... then a Vampyr will you be"

"Yodish, the language of Yoda of Star Wars fame is quite similar to that of our standard English. The words he uses are the same as those we use. They are intended to be used for the same purpose or part of speech. His language contains the same phrase structures and if enough applications are made, it is likely that infinite combinations are possible." - Source: http://www.yodajeff.com/pages/talk/yodish.shtml

While I agree with the text below. Yodish can be used to create and everyday language. I find it better suited when used with some of high stature and much age.

"we can apply the rules of Yodish and create an everyday language and therefore, Yodish is a legitimate language, or in the grammar of Yoda, "A legitimate language is Yodish, yes. Hmmm." " Source: http://www.yodajeff.com/pages/talk/yodish.shtml

 

[damppanties]

I am planning to write a vampyr story and I want the language to stand out, showing how old that vampyr is. I have been thinking that will the story will continue in common and modern english, the dialogue of the vampyr, I think should show his age.

That's a lovely idea.

As he finished recounting the story of his transformation, he looked deep into my eyes. His gaze barring into the depths of my soul before saying "...suffer the same fate you will... then a Vampyr will you be"

I really like it. The language you want to use gives it a real feel somehow. It's better than turning out another usual vampire story. Go for it!

Are you worried about how it will be received? If so, there are people here who appreciate something different, other than a pure wank story. If you're after votes and ratings, can't help you there. No knowing how the general Lit public will take it. Good luck with it though.

 

[CowboyPride]

Just to clarify

Damppanties, I am not worried about how it will be recieved I am just wondering which type of language would be more effective. The language of Yodish or Shakespere English. I guess I should have specified this. Sorry everyone if you were confused.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Damppanties, I am not worried about how it will be recieved I am just wondering which type of language would be more effective. The language of Yodish or Shakespere English. I guess I should have specified this. Sorry everyone if you were confused.

Personally, I think the Yodish would be easier for the average reader to read, but there will always be some purists that will complain. But if it were my story, I would go Yodish...

Hope this helps ya

 

[damppanties]

Damppanties, I am not worried about how it will be recieved I am just wondering which type of language would be more effective. The language of Yodish or Shakespere English. I guess I should have specified this. Sorry everyone if you were confused.

Ahh. It wasn't very clear, sorry.

I think I cast my vote already. Yodish.

 

[hugo_sam]

Damppanties, I am not worried about how it will be recieved I am just wondering which type of language would be more effective. The language of Yodish or Shakespere English. I guess I should have specified this. Sorry everyone if you were confused.

Cowboy,
If I can add my two cents, (probably overpriced at that), a being that old would not be an native 'English' speaker. Both by time and probable birth location. Saying that his/her/it's sentance structure would not reflect the current English modes of placement for 'verb, adjective, etc. I personnaly think that your idea of 'Yodish' would fit that perfectly. As an example, many non-native speakers still put verbs, etc. in the 'wrong' place to a native speaker and this would help to convey the age/ non-modern English feel, with out making the message lost in difficult wording to the reader. Now your part of writing it, that might be another story.....
For what it's worth, IMHO
Hugo

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The problem I can see is consistant use of odd constructions may wear on the reader's eye in the lit format. YOu might want to cut and paste some dialogue sections into a plain text document and see if it gets tiring on your eye as reader.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If you're going to use "antiquated" english, IE Shakespearian, please make sure you get it right;

"May thou accompany thee to thy chambers?" Asked him.

Is so wrong that it simply stops me in my tracks.

"May I accompany thee to thy quarters?" quoth he

Is, I think what you are after...

Shakespearian English has some simple rules, and some clever usages, that can be highly intertaining as long as they are used correctly. My story "The Ballad Of Mad Moll" is written in Shakespearian dialect- but set in the current day, so that the characters' dialogue can drop into twentieth-century speach once in a while for humor or emphasis- but the narration stays in the old style. To me, at least, it seems very satisfying- anyway, it's a lot of fun for me to write in this style

I say, go with a version of Yodish, but be careful not to allow your character to become a comedic figure thereby. A dialect or speach pattern gimmick can be most effective if used sparingly. (yeah, I know, I'm writing a whole novel that way )

 

[NoJo]

If you're going to use "antiquated" english, IE Shakespearian, please make sure you get it right; Is so wrong that it simply stops me in my tracks.
Is, I think what you are after...

Shakespearian English has some simple rules, and some clever usages, that can be highly intertaining as long as they are used correctly. My story "The Ballad Of Mad Moll" is written in Shakespearian dialect- but set in the current day, so that the characters' dialogue can drop into twentieth-century speach once in a while for humor or emphasis- but the narration stays in the old style. To me, at least, it seems very satisfying- anyway, it's a lot of fun for me to write in this style

I say, go with a version of Yodish, but be careful not to allow your character to become a comedic figure thereby. A dialect or speach pattern gimmick can be most effective if used sparingly. (yeah, I know, I'm writing a whole novel that way )

Anachronisms (like the famous case where one of the extras was wearing a wristwatch in a gladiator movie), can completely destroy the credibility of a story. So, Cowboy, I agree with Stella's warnings. You really need to get it right, unless you're going for a sort of Mel Brooks style comedy effect.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Personally, the image I would get from a vamp speaking Yodish would be, "Why is everyone so frightened of this cute little three-foot tall, pointy eared creature?"

That said, I don't think Shakesprearian is right either. I am not well read enough to say for sure, but suspect that Milton and other early modern English classics were too "literate," or articial in the sense of being not the spoken language of the day, but the poetic language of writers and "high culture."

A side note - the female vamp Dru on Buffy spoke a bad imitation of cockney that would have been just as grating if it had been a good imiation.

I have one idea: Look at Hobbes and other "political" writers of his period (mid 17th C). They aren't trying to be poetical or literate, just make arguments, so the language may be closer to what was really spoken, rather than artificially poetical. Locke was almost half a century later (late 17th C), and may sound too much like modern English to be helpful (think Declaration of Independence, which all but cribbed some of his best lines).

 

[rgraham666]

I'm afraid I disagree.

A vampire, as a predator, has to fit in. It keeps his prey at ease if they don't know a predator walks among them.

It also keeps the prey from turning on them. A company of Marines showing up at a vampire's sleeping place, during the day, in body armour and equipped with phosphorous grenades, Dragonsbreath rounds and flamethrowers is going to make short work of him or her.

The vampire you describe is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[cloudy]

I'm afraid I disagree.

A vampire, as a predator, has to fit in. It keeps his prey at ease if they don't know a predator walks among them.

It also keeps the prey from turning on them. A company of Marines showing up at a vampire's sleeping place, during the day, in body armour and equipped with phosphorous grenades, Dragonsbreath rounds and flamethrowers is going to make short work of him or her.

The vampire you describe is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

I'm with you.

And, although as you state, you have your reasons, I find the use of "vampyr" a little.........pretentious. Maybe that's not the word I'm looking for. It's almost as if it's trying to hard to be different from other vampire stories.

my 2 cents.

 

[OhMissScarlett]

I'm afraid I disagree.

A vampire, as a predator, has to fit in. It keeps his prey at ease if they don't know a predator walks among them.

It also keeps the prey from turning on them. A company of Marines showing up at a vampire's sleeping place, during the day, in body armour and equipped with phosphorous grenades, Dragonsbreath rounds and flamethrowers is going to make short work of him or her.

The vampire you describe is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

I don't know, society is so diverse now. Wouldn't you just think: "Oh, that guy's been to way too many renaissance fairs." if you saw someone prancing around in a tunic and tights? LOL.

No, I think Rob is right. Unless the vampire was secluded somewhere at vampire headquarters or a castle in BFE, adapting to modern ways would be the best way to blend. To some degree, if the vampire were exposed to modern humans often, adopting their speech might be even an unconscious thing. Of course the vampire would never lose all of his native accent or language and might be a little resistant to modern ways.

Be careful of inverted diction or Yoda-speak as we sometimes call it. Wears on the reader's eye, it does.

Also, when you say "vampyr", I can't help but be reminded of Andrew on the show Angel and how all the vampires winced when he called them that.

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

I'm afraid I disagree.

A vampire, as a predator, has to fit in. It keeps his prey at ease if they don't know a predator walks among them.

It also keeps the prey from turning on them. A company of Marines showing up at a vampire's sleeping place, during the day, in body armour and equipped with phosphorous grenades, Dragonsbreath rounds and flamethrowers is going to make short work of him or her.

The vampire you describe is going to stick out like a sore thumb.

Right.

I would perhaps add the odd anachronism, considering he has hundreds of years of language banging around in his head, but I wouldn't have his language be completely antiquated.

Depending on our ages, we've all went through at least a couple waves of "slang," which we've taken on and sloughed off -- usually without realizing it. As words fall out of popularity they merely slip off the radar, and only come to mind occasionally. I just don't see the first version of the language he was exposed to to be what he would use, unless he'd been asleep a long time, any more than I'm talking about free love (the slang around the time of my birth,) or calling things totally awesome.

Your story, but because there is a charm to the idea, I'd have him use a truly outdated word or sentence structure and have people react to it. Then I'd have him remark he is a student of language -- how it changes and evolves. Perhaps have him do a demonstration of how something would be said at different times, with the person oblivious to the fact that he's witnessed this first hand.

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

Also, when you say "vampyr", I can't help but be reminded of Andrew on the show Angel and how all the vampires winced when he called them that.

This conversation reminds me of, I think it was the first eppie (Welcome to The Hellmouth,)the scene where Buffy says she could tell a vampire by the way he dressed. Giles asks, "Because it's dated?" Buffy responds, "Because it's carbon dated. Trust me, only someone living underground for ten years would think that was still the look."

 

[OhMissScarlett]

This conversation reminds me of, I think it was the first eppie (Welcome to The Hellmouth,)the scene where Buffy says she could tell a vampire by the way he dressed. Giles asks, "Because it's dated?" Buffy responds, "Because it's carbon dated. Trust me, only someone living underground for ten years would think that was still the look."

Too funny, lol. I think there was even a vampire doing The Hustle on that show.

 

[vampiredust]

I think you should make the vampyr sound like he's from the 1500's. I think it wouldn't sound very credible if he used modern day english. Then again, you have to remember that vampyrs are immortal (according to fiction, anyway)
and could talk the way we speak.

 

[NoJo]

I think you should make the vampyr sound like he's from the 1500's. I think it wouldn't sound very credible if he used modern day english. Then again, you have to remember that vampyrs are immortal (according to fiction, anyway)
and could talk the way we speak.

I think it's important that whatever you decide on, your vampires should rub their hands together a lot and leer, showing their fangs. This will help the reader to identify them as the bad guys.

 

[CowboyPride]

To clarify once again everyone

I guess in the basic story line is, I will be touching back on his early life from the late 14th Century (ie. early 1500's) I want this to become a novella in which his life is followed through the centuries, after all he is 6 centuries old. But my story is going to take an unsual twist that unlike most other vampire/vampyr stories in the sense that the vampyr in this story is awaiting the return of Christ. Only by asking god to save his soul from enteral damnation when the day of judgement is at hand will he every be trutly free and be given eternal life. He was turned into a vampyr against his will, that is why he knows that the last day on earth will truely save him from the monster he was made into. But the damn, cannot speak throught holy spirt as mortals who have been forgivin of their sins do. He must beg for mercy on the last day.

There are many other story ideas that i have but I don't know to spoil the whole novel and I hope I haven't done that already above. So as you can see I will be bringing this vampyr through many generations of lanugage. I have thought about writing the vampyrs dialouge in latin but then who would understand it. That is where the broken english or Yodish come in. After centuries of living the old language has been lost in society. While he can speak it fluently no mere modern mortal would understand him. Plus I like to think Yodish coveys wisdom.

I want to thank everyone for their points of view, it has given me much more to think about. You know, today is my last day off work. I have to go back to work tomarrow.. It sucks. If I could I wouldn't mind writing all day long, but then I wouldn't get much in the way of social interaction.

 

[NoJo]

I guess in the basic story line is, I will be touching back on his early life from the late 14th Century (ie. early 1500's)

Er, Late 14th century = late 1300's. Early 16th century = early 1500's.

 

[NoJo]

You know, today is my last day off work. I have to go back to work tomarrow.. It sucks. If I could I wouldn't mind writing all day long, but then I wouldn't get much in the way of social interaction.

I hear ya.

 

[CowboyPride]

Thanks for the clarification.

I paid attention in history but aprrently no enough. LOL. So Early 16th Century it is. About the same time an colonial america.. I knew I shouldn't have spent so much time in High School daydreaming.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I have thought about writing the vampyrs dialouge in latin but then who would understand it. That is where the broken english or Yodish come in. After centuries of living the old language has been lost in society. While he can speak it fluently no mere modern mortal would understand him. Plus I like to think Yodish coveys wisdom.

Don't get all nerdy about it- not if you want people to read and enjoy
And once again, be careful with Yodish- many people think it conveys muppet silliness... Lucas really overused it in the films, IMO.

 

[JRaven]

I've read and considered all 23 posts. I don't think I agree with anybody.
(stupid bitch)

I like the old English. Yodish, I think would identify with too many of us that watched Star Wars in the theatre umpteen years ago. A cute, short, cuddly 3 foot teddy bear? I don't think that's the image you want for your vampyr.

HOWEVER...

Your first example is wrong:
"May thou accompany thee to thy chambers?" Asked him.

Keep the narative in modern English. ONLY his spoken words should be in Olde English.
"May thou accompany thee to thy chambers?" he asked.

Keeping the narative in modern English will help make the story more readable and set his spoken words apart. It will add age the the vampyr.

Can I get change on my 2 cents?
Jenny

Edited to add: Also consider Olde English spellings! EI: adding the 'e' at the end of 'old'. Just something I saw an on OLD sign for a pub. You might check out the actual text of the Declaration of Independence and the US Contitution for easy to find examples of period spellings. But note, printers often used an 'f' for an 's'. It wasn't a matter of spelling but a matter of how many 's' characters they had to print with.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"may thou accompany thee"
is as if you asked, in modern language-
"May you accompany you"