The use of dialect in fiction

[Alex De Kok]

It's all Wildsweetone's fault. In her 'English' thread I foolishly stated that my first language is Geordie, a dialect of English spoken on Tyneside here in the UK. I went on to say that I had considered writing a dialect piece and she challenged me to do so. I did, and it was posted here on Literotica on December 23rd.

I am completely unsurprised to say that it is one of my lowest scoring pieces. I happened to be on line when it was posted and was able to watch the first few votes as it made its faltering way into view. I know that the first four votes were all 5, but as soon as it hit the magic 10 votes it faltered and is now languishing at 4.16 from 19 votes , including at least one 1 that I know of.

My own feeling is that dialect should be avoided in anything other than a piece intended to illustrate the variations in language. In the story I used dialect in speech only, and kept the narrative in basic English. I had to torture English in my attempts to represent the sounds in a form where the non-Geordie reader might have an idea of the speech patterns I was trying to represent. It was hard work. I have seen at least one book where not only the speech but also the narrative was in dialect and I gave it up after struggling through about five or six pages.

What do my fellow authors think?

Should dialect be used in fiction?

If it is, should it be written to try to attempt to represent the sound, or just suggest it?

Would it be better just to suggest the sounds, but to utilise the phrasing where the dialect differs from mainstream English?

Opinion welcomed. If anyone wants to read the tale, you'll find it at Aye Pet, aal the way

It's my shortest piece on Literotica, less than one Lit. page. I'm not seeking feedback in this thread – although it's welcome – merely your views on the use of dialect.

Thanks for staying with me this far,

Alex.

 

[ronde]

I read your story, and liked it, once I got into the flavor of the dialect. The second reading was much easier. I think that may be the problem; it took a while to figure out what the characters were saying, and that detracted my attention from the erotic nature of the work.

Gaelic-based dialects have some vocabulary and pronunciation that somehow didn't get brought along into the modern English that most of us Americans speak. I would bet that many readers from Britain also are ignorant of this vocabulary and pronunciation. Some words that took deliberation on my part:

gan = go?
neet = night (and other "-ight" words)
canny = ?

The same problem can exist with other dialects of English. Most of James Herriot's work contains the dialect of his region and requires similar concentration with some words. There are many terms in American dialects that just don't have meaning, or at least not the common meaning, in "proper" English. A few from the American South that will cause you similar consternation are:

kittycornered
cattywampus
carry - as in "carry me to the store"
shopping buggy

Ebonics would be very frustrating for many English speakers.

Dialects tell the reader a lot about the characters speaking them, and it's important to realize the connotations of most slang usage. It's a common stigma that slang is used by the lower social strata of the population. Thus, your characters seem to me to be working class Britishers and probably not highly educated, just as my examples would be attributed to southern "rednecks" and ghetto dwelling African-Americans by most readers.

The dialect has to be understood by the reader or it overshadows what the characters are saying. One might be able to "fix" the problem by a few explanations in the narrative. For example:

"Where d'ye wanna gan the neet?..."

Jenny smiled. She'd been planning where they might go tonight all week.

"D' ye fancy stoppin' in?" Jenny asked...

Just my opinion.

 

[BigTexan]

Alex,

I enjoyed the story. It felt a little, hmm, staged though.

Every story will get the notorious 1 vote so I wouldn't let that bother you too much and a score of 4.16 is fairly good, really.

Now as to your question:

Should dialect be used in fiction?

I think Stephen King said it really well in his book "On Writing". You have to tell the truth. If the character would say "Shut yer fuckin' yap!" Then that is what you should write. Just as you did, I think that dialect only belongs in direct speach, unless the story is written in first person, then you have to tell it like the narrator would.

In your story, having all three of the characters use the same dialect became a little tedious. It may be exactly like you wrote it, but my experience is that no two people talk exactly alike. I don't talk exactly like every other Texan. Some Texans say "Ya'll" for everything. I don't, although when addressing an informal group I do lapse into the Ya'll thing sometimes.

In this story I would have given the girl a more vanilla speach with perhaps just a strong hint of dialect. I would have made the mother the worst of the three.

I can't say why I thought that was how it should be, but it was. Anyways it's just my opinion.

BTW this is an interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

BigTexan

 

[Madame Manga]

I haven't gone to read this story yet, but I will in a minute!

I happen to like northern dialects--I have had a poster with a coal-miner's poem in Geordie (Doon Pit) for many years. So I would definitely make the effort to 'hear' the voices in this case. You speak the dialect, so you have a better than even chance to make this work. The real disasters with dialect in stories occur when the writer is only putting it in for color and doesn't know the speech himself.

However, even with accurate transcription, dialect can be very tiring to read, as you say. I think that in general authors should be careful how far they torture their spellings. Often word choice and order alone can convey the flavor of the speech. It's a story, not a research paper. ;-) Exact phonetic transcription should perhaps be left to linguists.

It's my impression that there are standard spellings for Scots English: the Robert Burns poems being an example. So perhaps there are 'standard' spellings for a related dialect like Geordie? Still, your average international English-speaker isn't going to be familiar with them.

MM

P.S. after reading: Yes, you overdid the spelling a bit. ;-) I'd smooth out some of that, especially the girl's speech, as someone suggested. But it was a fun, sexy read anyway.

 

[TheEarl]

Read the story and thought it was one of the best pieces of writing I've read on here. Not convinced about her daughter's motives in askin the mam t'hop int bed or why the mum didn't do the usual parental thing of 'Get off my child, you're corrupting her', but a bloody good story none the less. Voted a 5.

The dialect didn't pose any problem for me, but I'm English myself and although I'm from the South (Southern Poofter to Alex), your Geordie's easily understandable.

Have you read any Christopher Brookmyre books? All of his books are written in Scotland and 90% of the dialogue is in thick Scottish dialect. There were some things I had to think about (eg. 'Haven't got a Scoob': Scooby Doo - Clue), but they're still intensely readable.

The Earl

 

[jfinn]

Hi Alex,

I just finished reading the story and actually I had no problem with understanding the dialect but then I'm one of those people who seems to hear the voices when I read dialogue. As long as it's well done, which yours was, I have no problem with it.

I do agree with BT though that it would be more than likely that not all of the characters would necessarily speak in the same degree of dialect. I know I've spent some time in parts of the world where dialect is spoken and it's amazing the different variations you'll find. Maybe though this is something an outsider hears more than a native like you.

As far as using dialect in general, I've done some of that myself and I've usually had a good response. But I've never had an entire story that's made up of people speaking it. I wouldn't try to do it either unless I felt that it was a necessary part of the story.

Maybe that's been some of the problem with this one. You don't really have a reason to do use dialect except to say you did. The story doesn't hinge on the location or the specific language of the region and that might seem to some readers to mean all you were doing was making them work harder to get to the story. If you had made it more location specific they might have figured their extra effort had been worth it and would have been more generous to you.

But after all that, I really did like the story and I gave it a 5. I'd like to see more too, especially if you could think of a plot that would be more region specific.

Jayne

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Honestly, I haven't read your story yet, Alex, but never the less, I LOVE dialects and accents in real life, and I think they make a character in a story more alive, more, beliavable, and much more thought-through.

IF the author knows how to write good dialogue, that is. If someone will just through in an "arrrrrr, maitee!" (or however you spell that! ), it will lower my opinion of the story as a whole - and lower the vote I cast, too!

In the hands of a good author - more dialects!

 

[jon.hayworth]

Read the story Alex and I liked it. It was very entertaining. I thought that it was well worth a 5. I liked the fact that not only did you write a dialect story, but that you also included the cultural elements of Bingo and Newcastle Brown. Although I expect the Newcastle Tourist Board will put a "contract" out on you for doing so - isn't it supposed to be getting all cultural up there nowadays? - With art galleries and such like! I agree with the Earl I was not totally convinced when Ma joined them. - Unless of course this is a clever literary device to allow for a sequel in which case - get writing because I did enjoy reading the story.

As for your low readership problem - I think with an international readership, any English other than "Standard English" (take that to read with a preference for U.S. spellings), will pose a problem for some readers and many people will not take the time or make the effort to wade through the complexities. I experienced the same problem with "Talisman - Doctor Forman's Discoverie" which I wrote with my best effort at 16th century dialogue.

Having said that I do not think you should be put off by the readers voting.

Unfortunately Wildsweetone who gee'd you up to write this story will not be online until mid-January - something to do with summer holidays in the Antipodes - I should moan as my gran would say. "'tis a damn site warmer down yere than it be up alon' where you be to me 'ansome!"

Merry Xmas and prosperous New Year

jon

 

[Alex De Kok]

Thank you all

First of all, fellow authors, my thanks for taking the time to consider my request for your opinions. Much of what has been said here agrees with my own feelings, but various points have been raised which I'd like to address.

Ronde –

Your interpretations of 'gan' and 'neet' are correct. The Geordie 'canny' is a little different from the Scots version (which I interpret as 'financially cautious'). It has a flexible use, but is usually used to indicate attraction, desirability or good qualities – 'that's a canny pint' (of his flavoursome beer), 'she's a canny lass' (of a kind or generous–natured woman) and so on.

There is an excellent series running on UK TV at the moment on the origins of English and here in the North-East of England there is a fairly strong Norse influence. I'm kicking myself that I somehow managed to miss last Sunday's programme, which was on Shakespeare! From the previous week's programme I did find out that English owes a lot to Chaucer and Tyndale (sp?).

Your conclusion that my characters were working class is essentially correct. I didn't consciously set out that way, but it is the way it turned out. I think your suggestion for a 'fix' by the addition of a little extra narrative is a good one and if I write any more dialect pieces I'll certainly bear it in mind.

BigTexan -

I'm glad you enjoyed the story. As for it being a little staged, well I would guess I was paying more attention to the dialogue than to the story this time. I think now that if I were to write another dialect piece I would write it 'straight' first and then go back and redo the dialogue. That way the story might work out better.

Your point about the differing degrees of usage of dialect is well made. With the introduction into households of radio and later television, people became exposed to word usage other than their own and were influenced to a greater or lesser extent. The two younger people would be more likely to use a more 'universal' English, I think.

Incidentally, although the 1 vote is annoying it doesn't bother me. I get much more from feedback than from votes. I only use voting to get an idea of how a story is being received. To be honest, I expected a low score on this one.

Madame Manga –

You make the very valid point that dialect (particularly a non-familiar one) can be very tiring to read. I find this so myself, which is possibly why this is my shortest posted piece! Word choice and phrasing can be sufficient to suggest a dialect and is the way I would most likely choose to go for future pieces.

I notice your posts have reached one hundred. Do we now look forward to your avatar?

The Earl (or should I say, 'Your Grace'?) –

Jenny's motives are a mystery to me, too. Hey, I'm just their chronicler! Tommy might call you a 'Southern poofter'. I promise not to do so – you liked my story.

I haven't read any Christopher Brookmyre. I'm due a trip to the library soon, so I'll keep a lookout.

jfinn (Jayne) –

You're right that the characters didn't need to use dialect – I was trying to prove to myself (and Wildsweetone) that I could write it. It's unlikely that I will write such a piece again. Any suggestion of dialect will most likely come from word choice and phrasing in otherwise basic English, although I might use the occasional dialect word or phrase. I don't like to make readers work so hard at interpreting what I wrote that they lose track of the tale I'm telling.

Svenskaflicka –

Go and read the story! Then tell me what you thought.

jon –

Good to hear from you again. Glad you liked the story. I noted with amusement your comments about the 'cultural' elements. Good job Alex de Kok is a pseudonym, methinks! Yes, we have a brand new concert hall being built, unfortunately on the Gateshead side of the Tyne! Near the Baltic Centre for Contemporary Art (or whatever it's called). Still haven't been…

I agree with you about the low readership. I didn't really expect anything else, another reason why there will probably not be a sequel, despite requests! I have five or six other pieces where my readers have requested sequels. One or two might actually get written.

My own only previous attempt at setting time or place was my own piece for the 'Talisman' chain story, set (for my chapter) shortly after the Battle of Waterloo, in Southern Northumberland. However, in that piece the characters were educated and I merely used phrasing to set the period, although it did have a Spanish maid.

I know Wildsweetone is off on her jollies. I sent the story to her before she left…

Conclusions –

Dialect has a place, but it should be suggested by word choice and phrasing, rather than phonetic torturings of otherwise innocent words. That's my feeling. It might be a challenge to write a sequel that way. Anyone else want to do it? Incidentally, your votes have now made the story my second-lowest scoring, LOL.

My best wishes for the New Year to you all.

Alex

 

[TheEarl]

Tommy might call you a 'Southern poofter'. I promise not to do so – you liked my story.

The Newcastle Tourist Board really will have a contract out on you; I thought it was standard Geordie policy for anyone south of Tynecastle to be referred to as a Southern Poofter.

Ayyyyyyyyyyyee. Geordie Juice.

The Earl

 

[gauchecritic]

"They'll fill your hearts with joy"

Well Alex I found it v.easy to read (loads of geordies in yorkshire) but the difference between the narrative and the accents made it seem to me, as someone else said in this thread, Texan I think, a bit forced.

Far from lightening up on the speech dialect I thought it would have improved by getting more accent into the narrative thereby making the narrator more knowledgable of the setting.

After all these years I still look forward to reading 'The Fat Slags' and 'Tasha Slappa' in Viz and so I saw no problem at all with the girl inviting her mother into bed.

But I must admit I was v. disappointed at no one using the phrase 'dorty whoah'.

But then I am

Gauche

 

[Diane Marie]

Alex, I haven’t read your story, but I would like to comment on the general use of dialect within the dialogue of a story.

I’m sure we’ve all been taught it’s important to make a character as real as possible. For the most part dialect, except to a very limited degree, is the exception to this rule.

Story flow should always take priority. We as readers, read by sight. I know most of us have been taught phonetically but as our vocabulary grows we become sight readers. We no longer sound words out phonetically, we see them, we read them. The use of dialect forces the reader to pause, then sound out those words phonetically.

If a story contains a limited use of dialect, just enough to flavor the characters, it’s not a real problem but in a story where a lot of dialogue contains words that need to be deciphered phonetically the story flow is destroyed. If this becomes to much of a burden for the reader, he/she just won’t read that story.

The truth is I don’t have the slightest idea how someone speaks with a Geordie dialect or accent, and rarely, if ever, would me knowing that be important to a story. Being your English maybe you’ll understand this. When I lived in England I could go just about anywhere and be understood, along with understanding what was being said to me. The exception to that was some of the cockney dialects in London, I never caught on. If a person wrote a phonetic cockney dialogue it might as well be ancient Greek to me.

You’d just love my accent Svenskaflicka. I grew up in Connecticut, spent my high school years near Boston, went to university in Iowa, lived in Texas where I picked up a Texas drawl, then England, finally ending up back in Iowa. I’ve been told I speak with a Texas drawl, a mile a minute like a Midwesterner, with a decidedly New England accent. When I lived in Texas they asked where I was from, when I lived in Iowa they asked where I was from, in England the same, now that I’ve moved home to Connecticut everyone wants to know where I’m from. Funny thing is I don’t think I have an accent.

 

[Natural Born Eros]

I liked the story, Alex, and, like Gauche, as a Yorkshireman I had no difficulty following it. I think it was an interesting story, and I enjoyed it. It set me thinking about a more general question though:

Whilst dialect, both words and accents are interesting and clearly useful/necessary in certain stories, do they have any erotic value for anybody? For me the eroticism in this story was what was said, not how it was said. Although I have a penchant for French and Swedish accents, I don't think I've ever found a dialect to be actually erotic. Am I unusual in this? The acid test, of course, would be whether the addition of a dialect makes a story more erotically charged - not more interesting or realistic. For me, no. Others?

Eros

 

[Madame Manga]

Dialects erotic? Well, I do know plenty of American girls who find an Irish or Australian accent sexy. ;-) Exotic, but not too much so, and actors from those countries are current Hollywood heartthrobs and so have given the accents cachet. That doesn't mean that these gals would understand in the least if an Irishman or an Aussie started talking in his local argot.

To take advantage of the Mel Gibson or Liam Neeson effect, the writer would have to pair the dialect-speaker with someone from another part of the world, IMO. If both (or all) parties speak in the same manner, there's nothing exotic about the situation. Dialect could also come into play in a Lady Chatterley scenario, where the parties are of different social classes and speak in contrasting idioms. I've read plenty of stories where a man's roughness or a woman's earthiness was emphasized by speech.

Though what really comes to mind when I think about erotic dialect is A Fish Called Wanda, and Jamie Lee Curtis writhing around on the floor as John Cleese recites words in Russian...

MM

 

[gauchecritic]

standing by for flak

Whilst dialect, both words and accents are interesting and clearly useful/necessary in certain stories, do they have any erotic value for anybody? For me the eroticism in this story was what was said, not how it was said.
Eros

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head there Eros. Accent, even inflection, is an auditory thing and must in the most part be a person to person communication device.

10% what you say as opposed to 90% how you say it.

(Alan Pease amongst others)

"Shag me" she breathed or "YEEEESSS" he shouted require a reader to pause however minutely in order to 'hear' the voices of the protagonists. Actually physically hearing either of those phrases brings immediacy and thereby 'reality'.

To do with suspension of disbelief I suppose. Ask Mr Brecht about that one.(?)

So much for that now for my frivolous reason for replying.

I think probably the girlies amongst us are more tuned to accents and inflection (and definitely body language). How many times has the reasoning behind a good sulk been "It's not what you said it's the way you said it"

(ducks behind barricade of computer parts)

I remain evermore,

Gauche

 

[TheEarl]

I try not to use speech in a sex scene, because I don't think letters will do them justice. Quite from the unspellable sounds involving a lot of consonants and some involving a lot of vowels, sound is everything and writing won't get across what you're saying.

Par exemple: I've been up in Geordieland (Newcastle for the foreigners) before and I know people with Geordie accents, so I can relate. But if you've never heard a Geordie accent before, all those words that Alex used, which sound perfectly natural in a Geordie accent will confuse you.

How do you transcribe a French accent to paper? How do you transcribe my 'Lord of the Manor' English accent to paper? It's well nigh impossible without overcooking it and the reader will tend to give the characters the voice he wants them anyway.

I'm sure I had a point there.

The Earl

 

[BigTexan]

I try not to use speech in a sex scene, because I don't think letters will do them justice. Quite from the unspellable sounds involving a lot of consonants and some involving a lot of vowels, sound is everything and writing won't get across what you're saying.

The Earl

Earl, are you saying that the English don't talk during sex? You've never said for example

"Damn girl, you are so beautiful. I love you. God I love you so much." to your lover as you and she are engaged in sexual coupling?

Gives me pause and I think I'll start a new thread for this.

BigTexan

 

[TheEarl]

I've gone to the new thread and replied, but I think you've misunderstood. Talk does happen during sex (the fact that I rarely do is neither here nor there), but I think it's well nigh impossible to transcribe it well.

Many American women find a posh English accent to be very arousing, but I'm not entirely sure how you'd get that effect onto paper. Or indeed an Irish accent, which I happen to like.

Plus dirty talk is very spontaneous and sounds good in the moment. If you write it down and look at it in the cold hard light of day, then you run the risk of looking like a tit.

The Earl

 

[BigTexan]

I've gone to the new thread and replied, but I think you've misunderstood.

I'm sorry I misunderstood. I hope I haven't offended too badly.

If you write it down and look at it in the cold hard light of day, then you run the risk of looking like a tit.

The Earl

As far as looking like a womans breast, well I guess if I wore a flesh colored outfit and put a little red cap on that stood up just right ...



BigTexan

 

[Natural Born Eros]

The only question that remains, BT, is what you would do to make you look like a man's tit

 

[Quasimodem]

Originally posted by Madame Manga
. . . To take advantage of the Mel Gibson . . . effect, the writer would have to pair the dialect-speaker with someone from another part of the world, IMO. If both (or all) parties speak in the same manner, there's nothing exotic about the situation.

Must I remind everyone that Mel Gibson was born and lived in USA until aged twelve. Also, that because of his Australian accent, his voice was dubbed by an "English-speaking actor" in the original American release of "Mad Max."

Though what really comes to mind when I think about erotic dialect is A Fish Called Wanda, and Jamie Lee Curtis writhing around on the floor as John Cleese recites words in Russian.

Please note! This is a COMIC EFFECT, not an EROTIC EFFECT. It is on a par with Gomez Addams having a fit every time Morticia speaks French.

 

[TheEarl]

No, no offence. You've raised a far more interesting point through your misunderstanding than I did in the first place.

BT: Do American's use the word tit in the terms of meaning idiot or fool? Probably another way in which I've alienated myself from an American audience .

The Earl

 

[Madame Manga]

Please note! This is a COMIC EFFECT, not an EROTIC EFFECT. It is on a par with Gomez Addams having a fit every time Morticia speaks French.

Yes, I think most of us realized that, especially since that was my point. ;-)

"Tit" for "idiot" is not an American expression, no. "Dork" would probably be the closest thing to it over here.

MM

 

[jon.hayworth]

BT: Do American's use the word tit in the terms of meaning idiot or fool? Probably another way in which I've alienated myself from an American audience

Oh Earl I think you are carrying this Englishman act a wee bit too far. I have heard TIT being used as a colloquial expression for IDIOT for most of my life! A common phrase for "I felt like an idiot" - "I felt a right tit."

My copy of OED tit n. coarse sl a term of contempt for a person (20thc: perh. f. TIT)

jon

 

[Weird Harold]

Oh Earl I think you are carrying this Englishman act a wee bit too far. I have heard TIT being used as a colloquial expression for IDIOT for most of my life! A common phrase for "I felt like an idiot" - "I felt a right tit."

"Location: Cornwall. United Kingdom" means that you are much less likelyto be confused by real English than us poor ignorant Americans.

Part of the newcomer's briefing for US troops stationed in England is (or at least used to be) a detailed briefing on English idiomatic usages that have been shown to cause misunderstandings -- "Knock me up in the morning" is the prime example.

In 21 years service, the biggest language barrier I encountered was in England and it was because of seemingly innocent things like "feeling a right tit" not meaning the same thing to Blokes as it does to Yanks.

FWIW, "Twit" is more likely to be understood than "Tit" as a synonym for fool or foolish.