The Turkish guards/protestors scuffle

[HisArpy]

There's a thread in the politics forum on this but it got derailed almost immediately. I thought this would be an interesting topic here.

I was wondering if Turkey actually committed an act of war when Erdogan's bodyguards left the Turkish embassy in DC and beat those protesters outside.

18 USC 2331 says:

(4) the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of—
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin

The treaty of the League of nations (precursor to the UN) says:

* Declaration of war upon another State.
* Invasion by its armed forces, with or without a declaration of war, of the territory of another State.
* Attack by its land, naval or air forces, with or without a declaration of war, on the territory, vessels or aircraft of another State.
* Naval blockade of the coasts or ports of another State.
* Provision of support to armed bands formed in its territory which have invaded the territory of another State, or refusal, notwithstanding the request of the invaded State, to take, in its own territory, all the measures in its power to deprive those bands of all assistance or protection.

The bodyguards are employed by the Turkish government in an official capacity. They attacked US citizen inside the US on orders of someone in the Turkish government. The attack was unannounced by the Turkish Government prior to it's beginning. And some of the bodyguards were armed during the attack.

Granted it may be stretching the points of the law here and there a bit, but was it an act of war?

 

[Hard_Rom]

No. One Nation attacking another nation's unarmed 'citizens' is not war by the OP. And they did not invade they were invited.

Or

* Provision of support to armed bands formed in its territory which have invaded the territory of another State, or refusal, notwithstanding the request of the invaded State, to take, in its own territory, all the measures in its power to deprive those bands of all assistance or protection.

US arms Kurds. Kurds attack Turkey. Did US start the war? Is this a counter attack by the Turks?

 

[Mahnoor]

A better question is what is Trump going to do about it. Is he going to let foreigners viciously attack Americans on American soil or will he kick them out?

 

[Hard_Rom]

A better question is what is Trump going to do about it. Is he going to let foreigners viciously attack Americans on American soil or will he kick them out?

Probably gone home already. Is Turkish President gone? Has Trump Twitted it yet?

 

[HisArpy]

No. One Nation attacking another nation's unarmed 'citizens' is not war by the OP. And they did not invade they were invited.

Or

* Provision of support to armed bands formed in its territory which have invaded the territory of another State, or refusal, notwithstanding the request of the invaded State, to take, in its own territory, all the measures in its power to deprive those bands of all assistance or protection.

US arms Kurds. Kurds attack Turkey. Did US start the war? Is this a counter attack by the Turks?

Point of clarity.

The bodyguards were inside the Turkish embassy which is "foreign soil". They departed those lands to enter into the US and attacked US citizens. No one "invited" them to do the beat down. They were only to be "present" in the US as bodyguards. that they were on our lands and NOT performing that duty means that their "mission" was not as per scheduled appearance. Thus, no "invite".

 

[Hard_Rom]

(4) the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of—
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin

no declared war, no armed conflict between two nations, just one nation vs other nations citizens, maybe US cop hitting Turkish guy with diplomatic immunity might count, no armed confluct between military forces, US police vs diplomats or diplomats vs citizens, if you have immunity you are diplomat even if bodyguard

 

[KingOrfeo]

And in any case, no one really wants a war with Turkey right now. They're a NATO member, and they're fighting ISIS.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Heaven forbid Turkey and Russia would ever heal old wounds and become friends!

 

[HisArpy]

(4) the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of—
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin

no declared war, no armed conflict between two nations, just one nation vs other nations citizens, maybe US cop hitting Turkish guy with diplomatic immunity might count, no armed confluct between military forces, US police vs diplomats or diplomats vs citizens, if you have immunity you are diplomat even if bodyguard

The statute doesn't say armed MILITARY conflict. It says armed conflict between 2 or more nations. The bodyguards were employed directly by the Turkish gov. They did a surprise attack on the US.

Did you know that the attack on Pearl harbor was a war crime because of the undeclared nature of the attack? How is this different?

 

[RobDownSouth]

My personal opinion is that this falls under "Major Diplomatic Incident" as opposed to "Act of War".

The Turkish goon squad, err, "body guards", all presumably have "diplomatic immunity". In normal times, they'd immediately be declared "persona non grata" and placed on the next plane back to Turkey.

In the Age Of Trump, though, nothing is a given. Hell, Trump might give these goons the presidential Medal Of Freedom if he thought it would make him look good.

 

[RobDownSouth]

The statute doesn't say armed MILITARY conflict. It says armed conflict between 2 or more nations. The bodyguards were employed directly by the Turkish gov. They did a surprise attack on the US.

Did you know that the attack on Pearl harbor was a war crime because of the undeclared nature of the attack? How is this different?

Wasn't it a few years back when the Bulgarian ambassador got drunk and ran over an American citizen? Was that an "Act of War"?

If not, where do you draw the line?

 

[Hard_Rom]

They attacked US citizens. Not the US nation. Attacking US citizens isn't a reason for war. Lots of folk have attacked US citizens and not found themselves in a declared war. With 10k dead from guns every year you may have an undeclared civil war going on.

 

[HisArpy]

Wasn't it a few years back when the Bulgarian ambassador got drunk and ran over an American citizen? Was that an "Act of War"?

If not, where do you draw the line?

I think it's the conflict part. An DUI accident is not an intentional act of aggression whereas the goon squad thing was planned to be such.


Note; I'm not actually seriously advocating that this was an act of war. I just wanted to discuss something other than throwing slurs about alts and/or Trump. Mostly because I'm spinning my wheels waiting for the clock to come around for an appointment where I have to go listen to someone whine...er...I mean...EXPLAIN how unworkable the solution to their legal dilemma is.

 

[HisArpy]

They attacked US citizens. Not the US nation. Attacking US citizens isn't a reason for war. Lots of folk have attacked US citizens and not found themselves in a declared war. With 10k dead from guns every year you may have an undeclared civil war going on.

9/11 was determined to be an act of war even though the attack was only against civilians. Therefore the intended target is not required to be military or strategic. Only that it be an armed attack (conflict) on US soil.

 

[Hard_Rom]

9/11 was determined to be an act of war even though the attack was only against civilians. Therefore the intended target is not required to be military or strategic. Only that it be an armed attack (conflict) on US soil.

9/11 targeted the buildings as symbols of the US nation. Had already been tried before. The attack targeted the US.

These guy went after civilians not the nation of America. Drug cartels target civilians of not the nation of America. That's not a proper declared war. Neither is war on terrorism actually.

 

[rocket_surgery]

It wasn't but so what if it was? We don't have to actually go to war with everyone who steps out of bounds.

 

[Hard_Rom]

It wasn't but so what if it was? We don't have to actually go to war with everyone who steps out of bounds.

Would have been a time when most countries would. Or at least shell a port city or two in eventual retaliation.

 

[rocket_surgery]

Would have been a time when most countries would. Or at least shell a port city or two in eventual retaliation.

Was a time when most countries had slavery, executed people for hunting in the kings forest and tortured people into religious conversion. We've gone well past most of that.

 

[HisArpy]

So, if it probably wasn't an act of war, then was it "Domestic Terrorism? Again, 18 USC 2331 says:

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.